JFK assassination.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

Another of my pro-conspiracy arguments. I'm not buying all that "act of patriotism to save Jackie from the heartbreak of a trial" bollocks are you? Far too convenient from a man with clear Mob ties who "just happened to be passing" the police station at the time. They moved Oswalds transfer time too, definitely inside info for good old patriotic Jack. Odd quotes from Ruby in jail too about wanting to speak in Washington about why he shot Oswald as if he told the truth in Dallas he would be killed. Which he may well have been, as he died from an incredibly rapid strain of cancer about a year later.

 

Phil, this is still one of those problem loose ends that I have on my conversion to the darkside of no conspiracy. I've made my position pretty clear in this thread what my view about the physical evidence is, and who was present at the murder zone....but that in itself doesn't rule out the possibility of a conspiracy, all that does is show that Oswald did the shewdin'.

 

When I was a pro-conspiracist, there were a number of issues I had real problems with, the magic bullet theory being one, the defection to the USSR and the ease with which Oswald returned was another....most of my concerns about what you would call 'off the field' issues, those outside of Dealey Plaza, have now been met and I've been satisfied as far as proper answers go.

 

BUT, the one remaining thing, the one thing that could get me back to the lightside is this issue, as its not readily justifiable. What the 'Oswald did it' brigade want to convince us of is that jolly old Jack, the guy from Chicago, the mob guy, the guy who was no stranger to violence and weapons, was really a public spirited guy who wanted to save Jackie the ordeal of a trial by law and trial by media of Oswald and wanted to reduce the level of hurt she would suffer by doing the nation a favour and filling Oswald full of lead.

 

Now, IF there is an answer to this question which shows that Ruby MIGHT have done it for those reasons alone, then it lies in the psychology of the individual. I mentioned earlier about once you realise what Oswald was all about, it becomes much easier to believe that he could have done the shewdin'. In all of this, the characters of Ruby and Oswald have become completely submerged in the lust for knowledge about the physical.

 

Oswald was a failure, from a broken home, he had no proper schooling, was a drifter, couldn't hold down a job for any length of time, attempted suicide in both USA and USSR, was of no use to either government hence the ease with which he defected and then returned....he was an attention seeking fuck up who embraced 'Marxism' simply because America was a Christian conservative country in the 1960's. If America had been Marxist, then Oswald would have been a Conservative, he was that kind of guy.

 

Now Jack Ruby, jolly old Jack, was nothing if he wasn't hotheaded, his nickname back in Chicago was 'sparky', not because he looked like Mark Hughes, or was an electrician by trade, but because he wasn't far away at any time from acting before thinking....its a mistake to think that Jack just 'happened to be passing' on that day, this wasn't the case, he had been past a few times, he had checked as he knew faces within the Dallas Police force from his club land connections. Jack was there because he knew people, he had asked about what time Oswald was due to be moved, he made it his business to know and because he was a face known in underworld circles in Dallas, he was able to pass into the Police Station.....

 

Anyways, that explains to an extent how he managed to get inside and how he happened to be there at the right time....although not that satisfactorily....but back to the psychology...as I said, anybody that knew Ruby, knew of his propensity to act, to get an idea in his head and then act....in his own world and his own mind, Ruby actually believed that he would be lauded as a national hero for his actions in shooting Oswald and Ruby liked nothing more than to be important, he liked to be somebody, he liked to be known and he liked to feel needed, wanted and popular....never for a second did he think that he was actually going to get prosecuted for it, he thought it was more likely that he would get a medal than be locked away.

 

Now, as for the stuff about wanting to talk to Alan Dulles and a few others, but in Washington and NOT Dallas, I'm not sure about the authenticity of that, which is why I have lingering doubts about Ruby's role in this whole shebang. This maybe poetic licence, it may be a story passed from mouth to mouth to a point where its taken on a new meaning....It may not have even been said and it was another big pinch of poetic/cinematic salt courtesy of Oliver Stone.

 

When I was a pro-conspiracist, my view was that Ruby was dispensable also, a patsy, just like Oswald...singled out for a specific task, although knowingly in Ruby's case....I cant put this aspect to bed though, I can account for and justify most other problems I had with the case, this is one I still struggle with...it was just all too convenient, but given that Ruby seemed utterly bewildered when he was told he was to be arrested and tried for Oswald's murder, then the psychology of Jack might provide the answer....gangsters have feelings too you know!

[Total Longo]

Now, as for the stuff about wanting to talk to Alan Dulles and a few others, but in Washington and NOT Dallas, I'm not sure about the authenticity of that, which is why I have lingering doubts about Ruby's role in this whole shebang. This maybe poetic licence, it may be a story passed from mouth to mouth to a point where its taken on a new meaning....It may not have even been said and it was another big pinch of poetic/cinematic salt courtesy of Oliver Stone.

 

It's not poetic license, Ruby was filmed saying this and i have seen the portion of the film we are discussing. Of course, he could have been simply attention seeking and talking bollocks but then couldn't anybody in this case? He knew exactly what he was doing when he shot Oswald, and like the man he killed didn't live long after the event for the truth to ever be revealed, despite his repeated pleas to be moved to Washington to testify. Interesting that these requests were refused point blank by Dulles, Ford and all the other Warren Commission lackeys, who were there (in my opinion) to get the facts as they had been told to get them, without any deviation from instructions. Like i've said before, any testimonies that didn't fit in with the single gunman theory were dismissed out of hand. A total whitewash, from the start.

[aws]

If I had to put a bet on it, I'd say that Oswald was the single gunman but the whole thing was set up by the mob in revenge for Bay of Pigs, Bobby's investigations etc. probably with the connivance of Hoover. Ruby was told to clean up afterwards.

[Total Longo]

Like i've said before, the mob didn't have the sway to alter parade routes at the last minute etc. More likely they were the hired guns of a bigger fish.

 

Like Jaws. Jaws did it.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

Like i've said before, the mob didn't have the sway to alter parade routes at the last minute etc. More likely they were the hired guns of a bigger fish.

 

Like Jaws. Jaws did it.

 

At last, we have the answer!! Its as credible as any other daft solution that numerous 'authors' have come up with.

[Total Longo]

The scales of justice were never tipped in the right direction.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

It's not poetic license, Ruby was filmed saying this and i have seen the portion of the film we are discussing. Of course, he could have been simply attention seeking and talking bollocks but then couldn't anybody in this case? He knew exactly what he was doing when he shot Oswald, and like the man he killed didn't live long after the event for the truth to ever be revealed, despite his repeated pleas to be moved to Washington to testify. Interesting that these requests were refused point blank by Dulles, Ford and all the other Warren Commission lackeys, who were there (in my opinion) to get the facts as they had been told to get them, without any deviation from instructions. Like i've said before, any testimonies that didn't fit in with the single gunman theory were dismissed out of hand. A total whitewash, from the start.

 

Aye, thats true enough like, I couldn't argue with most of that. The Warren Commission finding were a whitewash, as that was their agenda....it just happens that they came by the right solution via the wrong means.

 

The whole investigation from the start was a shambles, including the Dallas Police force, you would have expected any local tuppence ha'penny crime to have been handled better than this was, I mean, it was only the assassination of the President....one thing is for certain, as you said, alot of bollocks has been spoken in this case....maybe by Ruby, certainly by the investigators, and probably by Oswald.

 

Everybody has been preoccupied with the 'who', 'where' and 'what', and only in the context of a conspiracy has the 'why' been addressed.

[Total Longo]

Good read chaps. Kudos.

 

It kind of got me to thinking though, if this could happen to JFK then how in the name of all things holy hasn't someone blown a big, gorey hole in that Texan cunts' face yet?

 

Because the CIA's brainwashing techniques don't work as well as they used to and once the cold war ended they couldn't procure a gullible sap like Oswald to be their "patsy" anymore.

 

 

Bump....

[Strontium]

Currently reading Anthony Summers' conspiracy book at the moment... fascinating stuff. Oswald was certainly involved somehow, but he was well and truly hung out to dry.

 

The magic bullet theory is a nonsense of course, although I am far from convinced there was only one shooter in the book despository, or that either of them was Oswald. The fact that Oswald was silence by a terminally-ill mobster pretty much confirms the Mafia's involvement in the whole thing too.

 

I wonder if we'll ever know the truth.

[Total Longo]

Currently reading Anthony Summers' conspiracy book at the moment... fascinating stuff. Oswald was certainly involved somehow, but he was well and truly hung out to dry.

 

The magic bullet theory is a nonsense of course, although I am far from convinced there was only one shooter in the book despository, or that either of them was Oswald. The fact that Oswald was silence by a terminally-ill mobster pretty much confirms the Mafia's involvement in the whole thing too.

 

I wonder if we'll ever know the truth.

 

Ruby wasn't terminally ill at the time of the shooting though, but other than that i'm inclined to agree with you. Read "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs, a book that continues to amaze me in it's scariness.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

Because the CIA's brainwashing techniques don't work as well as they used to and once the cold war ended they couldn't procure a gullible sap like Oswald to be their "patsy" anymore.

 

 

Bump....

 

Good bumping Phil lad.

Although I disagree, as you know, about the image of Oswald as a gullible 'patsy'.

Read and research some around the character and psychology of LHO and you will discover that he was capable of doing the shoooodin' alone.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

Currently reading Anthony Summers' conspiracy book at the moment... fascinating stuff. Oswald was certainly involved somehow, but he was well and truly hung out to dry.

 

The magic bullet theory is a nonsense of course, although I am far from convinced there was only one shooter in the book despository, or that either of them was Oswald. The fact that Oswald was silence by a terminally-ill mobster pretty much confirms the Mafia's involvement in the whole thing too.

 

I wonder if we'll ever know the truth.

 

That book by Summers is a cracking good read.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

Ruby wasn't terminally ill at the time of the shooting though, but other than that i'm inclined to agree with you. Read "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs, a book that continues to amaze me in it's scariness.

 

Correct, Ruby wasn't terminally ill at the time.

That Jim Marrs book is ace, and as you say amazing in its scariness, but unfortunately, ultimately flawed.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Evertonians blame us for it.

 

 

We've got form - we are murderers, after all.

 

Actually, I've got proof it was Lady Di. And that's why teddy Kennedy did for her. (Chappaquiddick was just practice.)

 

As for the "Back and to the left" bit - That belongs on the "Great movie speeches" thread. But not here.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

SD, if you want to see the other side of the coin, can I suggest that you pick up 'JFK the assassination: dispelling the myths' by Mel Ayton and Larry Sneed.

 

The Summers pro conspiracy book is very seductive, but the Ayton book dispels the myths with plain old common sense, reasoning and evidence. Both are ace books and perfect foils for each other.

[Total Longo]

Good bumping Phil lad.

Although I disagree, as you know, about the image of Oswald as a gullible 'patsy'.

Read and research some around the character and psychology of LHO and you will discover that he was capable of doing the shoooodin' alone.

 

I don't doubt he was capable of carrying out the shooting, it's the point of whether he actually did it that bothers me.

 

I'm going to finish that documentary off tonight (the Essler one) and the debate can resume in earnest!

[Total Longo]

SD, if you want to see the other side of the coin, can I suggest that you pick up 'JFK the assassination: dispelling the myths' by Mel Ayton and Larry Sneed.

 

The Summers pro conspiracy book is very seductive, but the Ayton book dispels the myths with plain old common sense, reasoning and evidence. Both are ace books and perfect foils for each other.

 

A lot of the physical evidence was destroyed years ago, handily. Also, if this is such an open and shut case, why can't we see the closed off files until 2035 (or whatever the year is that they are released for public viewing)?

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

I don't doubt he was capable of carrying out the shooting, it's the point of whether he actually did it that bothers me.

 

I'm going to finish that documentary off tonight (the Essler one) and the debate can resume in earnest!

 

Gerrit finished lad, I've been waiting to have a 'beyond conspiracy' debate with you from the day this thread started!

 

This is a really fascinating subject for me, and for you obviously mate, its a pity that 85% of this thread is taken up by you and me batting on, its a shame that others don't share our devotion and obsession, or at least chip in a bit more. I kinda hoped for a 10 pager when I started this off,....I thought it was a banker to start some discussion.

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

A lot of the physical evidence was destroyed years ago, handily. Also, if this is such an open and shut case, why can't we see the closed off files until 2035 (or whatever the year is that they are released for public viewing)?

 

Thats one question (amongst others) that I can't answer Phil.

[paddyberger15]

Bumpety bump.

Phil and any other JFK buffs, did you catch the Discovery Channel programme that was on a couple of weeks ago called 'JFK: Inside the target car'?

I got it together to Sky+ it and have just watched, glad I did, it was compelling viewing. Yet another take on things moving forensics and ballistics further and further.

[Alan Sex]

Bumpety bump.

Phil and any other JFK buffs, did you catch the Discovery Channel programme that was on a couple of weeks ago called 'JFK: Inside the target car'?

I got it together to Sky+ it and have just watched, glad I did, it was compelling viewing. Yet another take on things moving forensics and ballistics further and further.

 

What were their conclusions??

[odris]

The Simpsons did it.

[Jennings]

Bumpety bump.

Phil and any other JFK buffs, did you catch the Discovery Channel programme that was on a couple of weeks ago called 'JFK: Inside the target car'?

I got it together to Sky+ it and have just watched, glad I did, it was compelling viewing. Yet another take on things moving forensics and ballistics further and further.

 

Doh! missed that. I am not a buff and not a conspiracy theorist, but have always thought that it was Oswald acting alone...but I would like to see this documentary.

 

I'll go search for a torrent.

[paddyberger15]

What were their conclusions??

 

That there was one shooter in Dealey Plaza, that the fatal shot came from the Book Depository, that the recreated head shot recorded the exact same dispersal of matter in all directions that actually happened and that any shots from the Grassy Knoll would have created and entirely different outcome.

Oswald did the shewdin'...well, whoever was in the Book Depository did the shewdin' and he was the only shooter in attendance on the day.

 

EDIT....well, if there was a shooter on the Knoll, or anywhere else for that matter, they missed.

Edited May 21, 2009 by paddyberger15

[G Richards]

I was in Dallas a couple of weeks ago and took an afternoon off to go and visit the book depository, grassy knoll and the whole bit. It was fascinating that right there on the treet there are two x's marking the spot where Kennedy was hit.

 

It all felt rather eerie.