FAO Dave U

[mooks]

Re – Criticizing Benitez

 

I considered sending this by e-mail but thought it would be more appropriate to post it on here at the risk of getting a mauling.

 

I think I have read every one of your match reports on-line the past three or four years. The reason I keep returning is you easily write the most informative and colorful reports available anywhere. When it's a match I have seen myself I agree with 90% of what you have written. It is the next best thing to being there.

 

You have a lot of influence through your fanzine and this site. I remember at the end of the 2002-03 season you wrote how you had exercised restraint in your criticisms of the manager because you were aware of the influence you held. In that final match report you called for GH to go and throughout the 2003-04 season you (rightly in my opinion and eventually the board's) openly criticized GH almost weekly.

 

One disastrous legacy of the GH regime – sped along with the advent of Internet forums – is that a culture of anger, frustration and, frankly, disrespect has taken root among the fans. So what does this mean for the club and our future and what can be done about it?

 

Your match reports after a loss or disappointing result now are completely different than they were in that 2002-03 season. Also, I don't know if the fanzine was around then, but I am pretty sure they are very different than your match reports would have been in 1998-99, GH's first season when we finished seventh.

 

We are in a very similar position now to the 1998-99 season. We will have to play near to flawless football from this point to get CL football and there is a real possibility we will miss out on Europe altogether. We desperately need investment and a strengthening of the squad. We also are in the midst of far worse injury problems than during the 98-99 season. Yet I seem to recall the atmosphere at the time being generally supportive of GH and the job he was trying to do under difficult circumstances. I certainly don't recall the level of invective and the “I know better” attitude that is now routine.

 

Going further back, I am told that our own Bill Shankly received unwavering support from the fans from 1967-72 when we did not win a single trophy. This raises the question – did Shankly create the Kop or did the Kop create Shankly? I would argue that it is a two-way street, that the unwavering support by the fans for a decent, hard-working, knowledgeable and passionate manager leads to the creation of a successful team deserving of that support.

 

Getting back to our current manager, Rafa Benitez. There are a few points we need to be crystal clear on:

 

1.Rafa Benitez was brought here to implement the managerial style that he employed so successfully at Valencia. If you disagree with his style, then your issue is with the board not the manager, because they are the ones who made the decision. Rafa is doing the job he was brought here to do.

 

2.Rafa's philosophy is quite simple: all that matters is the team. Valencia under Rafa were known as a 'team without superstars'. You write in your match reports that player X was dropped for a match. Rafa does NOT 'drop' players. He simply picks the best team for the game after considering various factors, including upcoming fixtures. This is critical to understanding what Rafa is all about. He is striving to create a whole greater than the sum of its parts WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS. When Rafa picks Josemi at right-back for the derby, for example, he is not saying Josemi is a better right-back than Finnan. On the contrary, what he is saying is that one member of the squad is no more important than any other member. He is saying if I pick you or don't pick you for a certain game that has no reflection on your relative worth to the squad. He is saying even if Josemi is struggling to come to terms with the Premiership the bigger picture is to create this atmosphere of all for one, one for all. You may disagree with this approach, you may prefer to see players criticized , 'dropped' and 'rewarded', but then see point #1. RB is our manager, not Jose Mourinho.

 

3.Another aspect of Rafa's management is the fine-tuning of analysis of players' fitness. You haven't been as accurate at predicting the team under Rafa and I think this is a major reason why. Whether you support it or not, this is a crucial factor Rafa uses in selecting the team.

 

 

Now I would just like to say why I think Rafa Benitez deserves our support in addition to the more general reasons listed above.

 

A. He has absolutely refused to blame injuries for our league standing. God bless him for this alone. He has also, apart from the most blatant examples, refused to criticize referees. This must be an inspiration to the players.

B. He has been masterful in the press. To have got this far in today's media-saturated environment without a major gaffe is quite the achievement. He offers support to players, refuses to dish out blame, I imagine team spirit must be quite high (and where it's not I blame Ste Gerrard)

C.He has bought well. Okay, Josemi has been disappointing but it's still early days and we didn't pay much for him. EVERY manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Nuñez cost next to nothing and was a makeweight in the Owen deal. Don't believe this “I would have bought him anyway” - that is just more positive Rafa psychology. And Nuñez still has loads of time to come good.

D.He has made great decisions on trimming the squad. Most Liverpool fans, yourself being one of them, would have gladly sold Finnan and Traore to Everton for peanuts in the summer. Where would we be without them?

 

I could go on, but I'm getting bored and the readers of this probably are too.

 

Dave, you are an intelligent, informed, and passionate supporter of this great club. What does it really serve to refer to Rafa's sh*tehouse selections and question whether he values certain games as much as the fans? This is not a rhetorical question, I will gladly read any answer you provide, but as a fan and admirer of this site I need to ask it.

[Salte]

Good post. I agree with most of it. But no matter how you put it, in football your number one objective, and the main thing to focus on, should be winning your next match. Rafa might hope for some future reward for playing Josemi and Diao, but it might also backfire, and i think this was one of Houlliers biggest failings. He was looking too far ahead. Planning for success that would certainly come when diouf and cheyrou hit it off, and when Traore was the new Desailly etc. Problem is, it never happend.

[Brownie]

To be honest I haven't really noticed anything overly critical from Dave in his match reports. The point he has made about Josemi is totally justified because he isn't good enough at the moment.

 

I understand what you say about Benitez' preference to talk about the squad and to pick a team for a specific game - surely though if the team he picks peforms badly and loses then the criticism is justified?

 

I really like Rafa and I think he is without doubt the best man for the job but he has made some mistakes. In my opinion it would be far worse if Dave came out and openly lied to his readers by not giving his total opinion on something. I mean that would equate to buying a sunday paper because the views expressed would not necessarily be within the realms of truth.

 

I buy the fanzine and regularly visit this site because I like to read the views of like minded fans. I don't want people to say something they don't actually believe, whats the point?

 

No matter what the circumstances, if somebody makes an error it has to be pointed out because no-one is above criticism.

 

To be fair Mooks I do agree on the basis of your point in that there are too many people who are quick to judge. I have been disappointed with the last couple of games but I'm totally prepared to give Rafa the deserved amount of time to stamp his own authority on the club. Equally I think Dave is too and has done so thus far very fairly.

[Paul]

Mooks, I agree with most of your points. However, the justification of Josemi's inclusion defies logic. When a player is so clearly out of his depth and struggling, it harms both the team and the individual to keep picking him. Rafa could easily select Raven in place of Finnan for certain matches, but doesn't. Clearly, therefore, there is some assessment of the readiness of the individual to contribute in that scenario, so why not with Josemi?

[Paul]

Mooks, I agree with most of your points. However, the justification of Josemi's inclusion defies logic. When a player is so clearly out of his depth and struggling, it harms both the team and the individual to keep picking him. Rafa could easily select Raven in place of Finnan for certain matches, but doesn't. Clearly, therefore, there is some assessment of the readiness of the individual to contribute in that scenario, so why not with Josemi?

Just realised that may look as though I agree with your view that Dave is overly-critical of Rafa; I don't. I think he's been pretty fair-minded in his criticisms.

[dave u]

Mooks, I take on board what you're saying, but it's impossible for me to please everybody. I don't think I've been overly criticial of Rafa so far at all. Any criticism I've given has always been tempered by an acknowledgement of how tough the job he has is, and how overall I'm happy with him etc.

 

I probably was a bit less critical of Houllier in his early days. The main reason for that being that as a rule I had very little reason to disagree with any of his selections. I don't remember him 'resting' his best players and bringing in inferior ones

 

I really like Rafa, it's impossible not to. But he has made some staggering decisions which I believe has cost us points unnecessarily. Josemi is being ripped to pieces every time he sets foot on the field. What am I supposed to say? I agree with him being picked? Sorry, I don't.

 

I think he's woeful. I could rip into him and call him a cunt etc as some have done on this forum. But the guy tries his best and that's all I can ask of him. If his best isn't good enough, then it's the manager who should take the flak for picking him.

 

When Josemi came on against Pompey, my heart sank and I honestly flt he could cost us the game. I'm sure I wasn't alone, and it proved to be the cost (not 100% his fault but had that change not been made I doubt we'd have let one in).

 

I don't mind Rafa making changes to the team if he thinks it necessary due to his fitness tests etc. What I do mind is when he tampers with a team to 'rest' players for a less important game, or makes a silly substitution liek the Josemi one. How often do you see managers change a back four when 1-0 up?

 

Leaving Alonso out of the derby, or not even giving him 45 minutes, so he can play Diao is unacceptable in my opinion. His tactics for that game played into their hands, again, just my opinion. Just because I like the guy doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he does.

 

What would you have me do? Try and justify everything he does even when the majority of people are questioning it?

 

It's impossible to please everybody, so all I can do is write how I feel and that way at least I know that right or wrong at least I'm being true to myself.

 

I do agree with certain things you have written, but I can't just blindly accept every decision he makes when I believe he's gotten it wrong.

[Hermes]

Re – Criticizing Benitez

 

 

 

 

"there is a real possibility we will miss out on Europe altogether."

 

 

Total bollocks. There is no way we will miss out on Europe altogether. The pessimism I read on here astounds me. We will qualify, probably for the CL, but definely UEFA CUP, and I'm talking about league position not Carling Cup. Get a grip for Christ's sake, why don't you go and support Tottenham? Then you'd be with fans of like mind.

[cochcaer]

Some people need to realise the polemic of the fanzine writer and how that differentiates from the dispassionate writings of a Graun hack.

 

Give me the culture of anger and jubilation rather than prozac detachment.

[Hermes]

Some people need to realise the polemic of the fanzine writer and how that differentiates from the dispassionate writings of a Graun hack.

 

Give me the culture of anger and jubilation rather than prozac detachment.

 

????????? What are you drinking?

[Rashid]

Its the hair Mooks, Dave's lost the plot ever since he got the mop. :biggrin:

[Brownie]

Its the hair Mooks, Dave's lost the plot ever since he got the mop. :biggrin:

 

You must never have had a hair cut then rash

[liver bird]

Some people need to realise the polemic of the fanzine writer and how that differentiates from the dispassionate writings of a Graun hack.

 

Give me the culture of anger and jubilation rather than prozac detachment.

 

yeah whatever he said ,I'm off to get a dictionary.

[Rashid]

You must never have had a hair cut then rash

 

I saw Dave today, he said nice things about you... so yes..defnitely lost the plot! :tease:

[mooks]

Mooks, I take on board what you're saying, but it's impossible for me to please everybody. I don't think I've been overly criticial of Rafa so far at all. Any criticism I've given has always been tempered by an acknowledgement of how tough the job he has is, and how overall I'm happy with him etc.

 

I probably was a bit less critical of Houllier in his early days. The main reason for that being that as a rule I had very little reason to disagree with any of his selections. I don't remember him 'resting' his best players and bringing in inferior ones

 

I really like Rafa, it's impossible not to. But he has made some staggering decisions which I believe has cost us points unnecessarily. Josemi is being ripped to pieces every time he sets foot on the field. What am I supposed to say? I agree with him being picked? Sorry, I don't.

 

I think he's woeful. I could rip into him and call him a cunt etc as some have done on this forum. But the guy tries his best and that's all I can ask of him. If his best isn't good enough, then it's the manager who should take the flak for picking him.

 

When Josemi came on against Pompey, my heart sank and I honestly flt he could cost us the game. I'm sure I wasn't alone, and it proved to be the cost (not 100% his fault but had that change not been made I doubt we'd have let one in).

 

I don't mind Rafa making changes to the team if he thinks it necessary due to his fitness tests etc. What I do mind is when he tampers with a team to 'rest' players for a less important game, or makes a silly substitution liek the Josemi one. How often do you see managers change a back four when 1-0 up?

 

Leaving Alonso out of the derby, or not even giving him 45 minutes, so he can play Diao is unacceptable in my opinion. His tactics for that game played into their hands, again, just my opinion. Just because I like the guy doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he does.

 

What would you have me do? Try and justify everything he does even when the majority of people are questioning it?

 

It's impossible to please everybody, so all I can do is write how I feel and that way at least I know that right or wrong at least I'm being true to myself.

 

I do agree with certain things you have written, but I can't just blindly accept every decision he makes when I believe he's gotten it wrong.

 

 

Thanks for that as well as the others who responded.

 

I wish I knew how to use the edit function on here as I think I could have made my point clearer on the original post.

 

Absolutely, totally not would I ever ask anyone to write what they don't believe in. And certainly not to please me! What I am talking about is what is best for Liverpool Football Club.

 

With respect to Josemi, would it not be more accurate (not less accurate or honest) to write, "I don't understand why Rafa is selecting Josemi" instead of Rafa must be off his noggin (in effect) to select him? I KNOW that the majority of fans don't rate him. I don't rate him. But I trust Rafa. Not a blind trust but a reasoned one. And this may be where other fans and I subscribe to a different philosophy. I believe that trust comes first, that trust continues until it is violated, and that trust will lead to the results we all crave.

 

No analogy is perfect, but you could consider it in the light of a human relationship. What do you do if your partner or wife makes a decision you don't agree with? Do you tell her it was a sh***house decision? Or do you talk it over calmly and sensibly and be prepared to listen? If you want the relationship to continue there's only one choice. BOTH are honest responses but only one is constructive. If you want to end the relationship, fine, but if you want to keep it going you have to maintain an atmosphere of trust and respect. And this is a conscious decision, you don't just wait for it to "happen naturally".

 

It is not even debatable whether Rafa makes mistakes. As far as I know, he is a human being. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we trust him with our future and if we do how we can best support him.

 

How many people on here said we should bite Moyes' hand off when they offered £1 million for Traore, to provide just one example? Where are they now?

 

Are we honestly in a position to state that Rafa has made a mistake?

 

I don't know why Rafa picks Josemi. I'm as mystified as you are. But I do know that no-one is more knowledgeable of his players' performance. Apparently Rafa has a video camera focused on each player during the game! He doesn't have to explain every decision to me. I have made the conscious decision to trust him.

 

In a season already filled with several glorious memories, perhaps the most poignant for me was hearing the away support singing You'll Never Walk Alone and in support of the manager towards the end of the Middlesborough game. If we carry on with that spirit we will be unstoppable.

 

Thanks again for the response. Just one more question: What do you think of the theory that the Kop made Shankly just as much as Shankly made the Kop?

 

Cheers

[mooks]

Re – Criticizing Benitez

 

Get a grip for Christ's sake, why don't you go and support Tottenham? Then you'd be with fans of like mind.

 

Hard to argue with that.

 

Tottenham and trust go hand in hand.

[dave u]

Thanks for that as well as the others who responded.

 

I wish I knew how to use the edit function on here as I think I could have made my point clearer on the original post.

 

Absolutely, totally not would I ever ask anyone to write what they don't believe in. And certainly not to please me! What I am talking about is what is best for Liverpool Football Club.

 

With respect to Josemi, would it not be more accurate (not less accurate or honest) to write, "I don't understand why Rafa is selecting Josemi" instead of Rafa must be off his noggin (in effect) to select him? I KNOW that the majority of fans don't rate him. I don't rate him. But I trust Rafa. Not a blind trust but a reasoned one. And this may be where other fans and I subscribe to a different philosophy. I believe that trust comes first, that trust continues until it is violated, and that trust will lead to the results we all crave.

 

No analogy is perfect, but you could consider it in the light of a human relationship. What do you do if your partner or wife makes a decision you don't agree with? Do you tell her it was a sh***house decision? Or do you talk it over calmly and sensibly and be prepared to listen? If you want the relationship to continue there's only one choice. BOTH are honest responses but only one is constructive. If you want to end the relationship, fine, but if you want to keep it going you have to maintain an atmosphere of trust and respect. And this is a conscious decision, you don't just wait for it to "happen naturally".

 

It is not even debatable whether Rafa makes mistakes. As far as I know, he is a human being. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we trust him with our future and if we do how we can best support him.

 

How many people on here said we should bite Moyes' hand off when they offered £1 million for Traore, to provide just one example? Where are they now?

 

Are we honestly in a position to state that Rafa has made a mistake?

 

I don't know why Rafa picks Josemi. I'm as mystified as you are. But I do know that no-one is more knowledgeable of his players' performance. Apparently Rafa has a video camera focused on each player during the game! He doesn't have to explain every decision to me. I have made the conscious decision to trust him.

 

In a season already filled with several glorious memories, perhaps the most poignant for me was hearing the away support singing You'll Never Walk Alone and in support of the manager towards the end of the Middlesborough game. If we carry on with that spirit we will be unstoppable.

 

Thanks again for the response. Just one more question: What do you think of the theory that the Kop made Shankly just as much as Shankly made the Kop?

 

Cheers

 

I agree with a lot of that Mooks. One thing though. If Rafa selects Diao ahead of Biscan I'll say "I don't understand why he is doing that." However, when he picks Josemi over Finnan I'll say "he must be fucking loony tunes to do that!!!!!"

 

There is a difference between something which you think is wrong, and something which EVERYONE (except one man) KNOWS is wrong.

 

I had a little go at Rafa after Pompey, but what was I having a go about?

 

1) Josemi being brought on, meaning the back four was needlessly changed at a time when they were looking comfortable.

2) No Mellor, meaning Baros wasn't as effective.

3) Hamann playing, when often he isn't needed in home games.

 

On sunday what did Rafa do?

 

1) Brought on Traore, but put him in midfield and left Riise at full back so as not to disturb the back four.

2) Played Mellor, who scored, and also allowed Baros to play his normal game and terrorise the opposition.

3) Left out Hamann, because he wasn't needed.

 

Not trying to be a smart arse here, I just thought it proved that the criticism I had after Pompey wasn't that unreasonable at all, as the manager clearly felt the same way judging by what he did against the Geordies.

[Kurt]

I agree with a lot of that Mooks. One thing though. If Rafa selects Diao ahead of Biscan I'll say "I don't understand why he is doing that." However, when he picks Josemi over Finnan I'll say "he must be fucking loony tunes to do that!!!!!"

 

There is a difference between something which you think is wrong, and something which EVERYONE (except one man) KNOWS is wrong.

 

I had a little go at Rafa after Pompey, but what was I having a go about?

 

1) Josemi being brought on, meaning the back four was needlessly changed at a time when they were looking comfortable.

2) No Mellor, meaning Baros wasn't as effective.

3) Hamann playing, when often he isn't needed in home games.

 

On sunday what did Rafa do?

 

1) Brought on Traore, but put him in midfield and left Riise at full back so as not to disturb the back four.

2) Played Mellor, who scored, and also allowed Baros to play his normal game and terrorise the opposition.

3) Left out Hamann, because he wasn't needed.

 

Not trying to be a smart arse here, I just thought it proved that the criticism I had after Pompey wasn't that unreasonable at all, as the manager clearly felt the same way judging by what he did against the Geordies.

 

Good points Dave, and i agree...

 

But to some degree it also shows that whatever a manager does he can be both critisized and applauded for. When Benitez brought on Traore at Villa, he was critisized for not pushing Riise up to midfield with Traore taking the left back position. No one were talking about not changing the back four then...

 

Off course there were differences in how the games were going, but it still proves that the same actions during a game can be wrong and right!

[Al Campbell]

Not even the 'There's a new sheriff in town' T-shirt can cancel out the loonyness of a Josemi selection.

[Kurt]

Not even the 'There's a new sheriff in town' T-shirt can cancel out the loonyness of a Josemi selection.

 

Do we actually know if Dave wore it at the Pompey match?... If he did`nt we all know where to lay the blame...and it`s not at Jerzy, Sami or Jose Miguel Gonzales!! ;)

[Uncle Travelling Matt]

Re – Criticizing Benitez

 

 

 

 

"there is a real possibility we will miss out on Europe altogether."

 

 

Total bollocks. There is no way we will miss out on Europe altogether. The pessimism I read on here astounds me. We will qualify, probably for the CL, but definely UEFA CUP, and I'm talking about league position not Carling Cup. Get a grip for Christ's sake, why don't you go and support Tottenham? Then you'd be with fans of like mind.

 

Agree 100%, we are in a much better position now and playing much better football than I remember for a goo few years.......the negativity from supporters astounds me. Support the club, see that word "support" it means alot. Expect mediocrity and that is what you will be given......we are moving forward, Rafa is a fantastic manager but a magician he aint.....we will be back.

[Brownie]

Do we actually know if Dave wore it at the Pompey match?... If he did`nt we all know where to lay the blame...and it`s not at Jerzy, Sami or Jose Miguel Gonzales!! ;)

 

I think Dave discarded that t shirt after the woodison episode - probably still had green bile infestering all over it from the delightful locals

[Tom R]

Mooks, if you want to read something that panders to Rafa on everything he does and read what is "best for LFC" then read the official site or the programme.

 

The whole purpose of TLW is it's somewhere the fans can express their real opinion without upsetting the "official" apple cart.

 

rafa has FUCKED UP MASSIVELY on more than one occasion this season. His selections have been baffling at times to say the least. That's a fact.

You can't criticise Dave for speaking the truth, just because you don't like it mate.

 

I know where you're coming from like, but this just isn't the place for towing the party line.

 

If Rafa does somethjing shit then it's refreshing to be able to read on here that "rafa did something shit. Josemi is shit." rather than some shite like, "a small number of fans will feel that Finnan should have been favoured over Josemi" or some other such offical sounding drivel.

No thank you.

[Rashid]

Mooks, if you want to read something that panders to Rafa on everything he does and read what is "best for LFC" then read the official site or the programme.

 

The whole purpose of TLW is it's somewhere the fans can express their real opinion without upsetting the "official" apple cart.

 

rafa has FUCKED UP MASSIVELY on more than one occasion this season. His selections have been baffling at times to say the least. That's a fact.

You can't criticise Dave for speaking the truth, just because you don't like it mate.

 

I know where you're coming from like, but this just isn't the place for towing the party line.

 

If Rafa does somethjing shit then it's refreshing to be able to read on here that "rafa did something shit. Josemi is shit." rather than some shite like, "a small number of fans will feel that Finnan should have been favoured over Josemi" or some other such offical sounding drivel.

No thank you.

 

 

Fucking in hell, you are becoming sensible...

[Paul]

Mooks, if you want to read something that panders to Rafa on everything he does and read what is "best for LFC" then read the official site or the programme.

 

The whole purpose of TLW is it's somewhere the fans can express their real opinion without upsetting all the "official" apple cart.

 

rafa has FUCKED UP MASSIVELY on more than one occasion this season. His selections have been baffling at times to say the least. That's a fact.

You can't criticise Dave for speaking the truth, just because you don't like it mate.

 

I know where you're coming from like, but this just isn't the place for towing the party line.

 

If Rafa does somethjing shit then it's refreshing to be able to read on here that "rafa did something shit. Josemi is shit." rather than some shite like, "a small number of fans will feel that Finnan should have been favoured over Josemi" or some other such offical sounding drivel.

No thank you.

Exactly. My only problem with people criticising on here is when it gets personal. I can only think of one person associated with the club who has truly deserved any type of personal abuse in the time this forum has existed - and it's not GH (although a typo on his first name would tell you who).

 

What's wrong with saying Josemi is shit? He is. Most people aren't giving him abuse, just saying he's making major fuck ups in every game. That's a statement of fact. Rafa has made mistakes; who doesn't? Surely this is what a forum is for? I was a bit too slavish in my support for Gerard Houllier, denying what I knew to be questionable decisions in the name of "support". That's bollocks. If something ain't right, say so. Just no need to throw abuse into the mix - one twat in an armband excepted.

 

*Awaiting Scousewegian/Norsepudlian's next self-righteous sermonising rant about how he's a better fan than me.*

[Kurt]

 

*Awaiting Scousewegian/Norsepudlian's next self-righteous sermonising rant about how he's a better fan than me.*

 

Off course... What do yopu expect? We on here are afterall the worst fans on the planet to ever have laid eyes on a football match.

 

Wish we all could be as great as Norsepoodle.... ;)