Jump to content
  • Sign up for free and receive a month's subscription

    You are viewing this page as a guest. That means you are either a member who has not logged in, or you have not yet registered with us. Signing up for an account only takes a minute and it means you will no longer see this annoying box! It will also allow you to get involved with our friendly(ish!) community and take part in the discussions on our forums. And because we're feeling generous, if you sign up for a free account we will give you a month's free trial access to our subscriber only content with no obligation to commit. Register an account and then send a private message to @dave u and he'll hook you up with a subscription.

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 512
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

lario said > Watched the clip again for the first time in real time since the game, and to me it definitely looks like Luis goes to shake the cunts hand, but when it wasn't there, he moved on. It was only after Luis went past that the cunt raised his hand.

 

that's what it looks like. all the more puzzling as to why the club have gone down the apology route. i definitely think they have let down suarez in not pointing out evra dropping his hand. you can see by the look on suarez' face he was uncomfortable and it looks like he didn't really want to do it anyway. i think he had every intention of shaking hands , but with evra dropping his hand it caused saurez to change his mind in an instant. after all evra didn't make public his intention to shake hands so suarez could have interpreted evra's action as a refusal. he could have grabbed evra's hand but he understandably wanted to avoid a confrontation given what happened last time they met on the pitch. i don't blame suarez for not shaking his hand and i don't back the club or kenny if they put him up to the handshake if they knew he had reservations about it. liverpool have all along backed suarez and maintained suarez was the victim in this saga. by taking this route they have allowed themselves to now be at the beck and call of evra every time the two players meet. next time it will be ''the handshake wasn't firm enough or it was too confrontational or i think suarez should be made to kneel''. suarez kenny and the club seem to be floundering at the moment in what to do for the best. i can only think that today's apology has been issued on the orders of the non-proactive owners as they seem to go against LFC's stance on everything else during this sorry saga.

 

if nothing else the apologies seem to have taken some of the heat from the attacks in the media. so maybe we can get back to the football.

 

we still have a lot to play for and goals to achieve. lets concentrate on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lario said > Watched the clip again for the first time in real time since the game, and to me it definitely looks like Luis goes to shake the cunts hand, but when it wasn't there, he moved on. It was only after Luis went past that the cunt raised his hand.

 

that's what it looks like. all the more puzzling as to why the club have gone down the apology route. i definitely think they have let down suarez in not pointing out evra dropping his hand. you can see by the look on suarez' face he was uncomfortable and it looks like he didn't really want to do it anyway. i think he had every intention of shaking hands , but with evra dropping his hand it caused saurez to change his mind in an instant. after all evra didn't make public his intention to shake hands so suarez could have interpreted evra's action as a refusal. he could have grabbed evra's hand but he understandably wanted to avoid a confrontation given what happened last time they met on the pitch. i don't blame suarez for not shaking his hand and i don't back the club or kenny if they put him up to the handshake if they knew he had reservations about it. liverpool have all along backed suarez and maintained suarez was the victim in this saga. by taking this route they have allowed themselves to now be at the beck and call of evra every time the two players meet. next time it will be ''the handshake wasn't firm enough or it was too confrontational or i think suarez should be made to kneel''. suarez kenny and the club seem to be floundering at the moment in what to do for the best. i can only think that today's apology has been issued on the orders of the non-proactive owners as they seem to go against LFC's stance on everything else during this sorry saga.

 

if nothing else the apologies seem to have taken some of the heat from the attacks in the media. so maybe we can get back to the football.

 

we still have a lot to play for and goals to achieve. lets concentrate on that.

 

I think Evra definitely drops the hand and is deliberately doing so. Its obvious in the video if you watch it Evra has his hand raised for every other shake then Suarez walks up and he drops before going for the shake once Luis has moved on.

 

No amount of twats in the media bemoaning conspiracy theories can convince me otherwise, its there for all to see in the video and its a disgrace in the 21st century people are being ridiculed for stating whats there to be seen with anyone with eyes.

 

But it makes no difference, Luis should have stopped and ensured the handshake took place, it was his responsibility to do that once he had told Kenny he was going to do it. Luis quite frankly was an idiot for not making sure it happened. Christ if he had stood still offering his hand and Evra rejected it he would have came out looking a whole lot better.

 

What pisses me off though is I think Luis has alluded to what went on with that Tweet he made and I'd bet he'd like to give his side of it but he won't be allowed because our default position on everything over the past few months has been to say nothing and continue getting shafted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ngogswilly > What pisses me off though is I think Luis has alluded to what went on with that Tweet he made and I'd bet he'd like to give his side of it but he won't be allowed because our default position on everything over the past few months has been to say nothing and continue getting shafted.

 

i agree with that. from the minute the club issued their statement following the guilty verdict, they led us to believe they would fight this to the bitter end. after reading the report i was in no doubt in my own mind they would and could do everything to clear suarez' name. considering all the posturing from the club via statements and t-shirts etc this groveling apology in response to what looks like the pressganging of suarez into shaking hands with a man we know to be a liar is not what we as fans want from the people at the helm. basically it has left us with our dicks swinging in the air and at the mercy of a whole host of people this club doesn't care a jot for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The media, The FA, Evra, Ferguson, Luis, FSG, Kenny have all made mistakes in this whole affair.

 

Nobody is perfect and everyone can make mistakes. I love Liverpool FC because we support our players because they play for our club. They never walk alone. The confidence this gives players to play without pressure is what makes our support great.

 

Maybe FSG are making a mistake with their directing of this situation but they are new to this game and new to our club. Maybe they still have stuff to learn. The important thing for me is, are they trying their best. Working hard to do what is right for LFC. Djimi Traore wasn't the best LB this clubs ever had but we loved him for his effort. We need to stick together now and remember who we are as LFC and show the world it again.

 

Luis was wrong not to shake Evra's hand. Not because it would be seen as a public admission of guilt. But because he's not realised that the situation could get bigger than Evra and Suarez; spilling out onto the stands, streets and schools. And because his self-defensive manner hasn't taken onboard the consequences to the club as well.

 

Taken from Suarez's point of view, however, it is fully understandable. The only thing he needs to apologise for is lying about doing the handshake and putting the club in an even more difficult situation. Which I think he has done. I hope this doesn't effect his great work ethic on the pitch and realises that all is forgiven if you show respect and work hard to do what is right for LFC.

 

However, I would like to see Suarez doing more, in light of the non hand-shake, to put this to bed. And more than just a statement. I don't know what, but it needs to be fitting and respectful to LFC but to also vehemently disputing the FA charge which has caused him to be portrayed as a racist. Most importantly it needs to be conciliatory with Evra and Man United. Because as much as we dislike each other, there is respect between the two clubs - As there should be between two such great adversaries. And because football is only a game which should be enjoyed. And things which are meant to be enjoyed don't spread hate and violence. Passion and loyalty, for sure. And even though Evra and Man Utd effectively instigated this chain of events, we should realise the bigger picture and be the ones to end this issue and stem any hostilities. Even go as far as try and work together to try and find something from all of this whereby the issue of racism is positively addressed.

 

I think The FA have a lot to answer for in their handling of the situation. Having been presented with a golden opportunity to raise the race issue again in football (something which was and is becoming more problematic in everyday life during these economically tougher times of the War On Terror) they couldn't resist. I'd like to think it was well intentioned, if not towards Luis Saurez the unwilling scapegoat, but in an attempt to address the issue of race and eradicate it from society and the psyche of the guilt ridden. Unfortunately, the racist offence was not an actual racist incident. Rather an encounter of the type that occurs on football pitches the world over. One intended to gain the psychological advantage over an opponent by riling them. This ended up creating one aggrieved Suarez who had to be portrayed as racist in order for the public display of disciplinary justice to work, knowing all he had done wrong was give a bit of verbal back on the pitch. Verbal which was not meant to demean by virtue of race but did include reference to colour. All credit to Saurez for his remarks about '...stays on the pitch'.

 

By far the worst offender in this whole affair is Ferguson followed closely by Evra. It's clear Evra knew that Suarez's reference to his colour was not the derogatory part of his abusive comments. Every time the word 'negro' is used bar when it's reported to the ref with SAF, when it becomes 'nigger'. The issue of race is not an un-sensitive and to blatantly lie about the exact details of the alleged statements used is apprehensible. That The FA didn't stop this case when it was so clear that it was agenda driven is the biggest mistake. And ultimately it all stems from Evra's inability to hold his own on the pitch and in a verbal confrontation which caused him to go running to the ref at first to try and get Suarez punished on the pitch. Which when nothing happened immediately just unleashed his victim-mentality induced case of deliberately exaggerating events to serve his agenda of trying get Suarez in trouble. I think Evra's actions today go to show completely how he thinks HE's won. It was always about beating Suarez for Evra, and I'm afraid to say at the moment he's winning. If he was really about fighting racism then I think he's be a bit more dignified in victory. But has been seen, he is a bad loser and a bad winner.

 

The real sadness in all of this is how the kids idolise their footballing heros. Not only do the kids these days think it's OK to dive and cheat and give verbal to officials. Now the FA has shown them it's ok to be a racist because they've stupidly mislabelled a player as one and look, he's still there playing football, earning lots of money and being a role model to kids. If anything The FA have put back lots of work done to eradicate racism in the last decades.

 

Sorry for the waffle. Let's all walk together through this; fans, players, and the club and lets not do exactly what the media would love us to do. Which would be to react without dignity and bring the club into more disrepute in the same self-defensive manner which Luis was acting in when he didn't shake Evra's hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have little issues with the latest statements. At the end of the day Suarez should of kept his word.

 

This was the time to act as a professional, and the club has been accountable and transparent and stated the facts. I'm sorry, but no one man is bigger than the club. Luis threw himself under the bus by not keeping his word. He knew the world would be watching.

 

If he couldn't shake Evra's hand, he should of been honest and upfront about it and let the club help him through. There would of been ways to address this which would of mitigated the negative outcomes for which the club and player are now suffering from.

 

Unfortunately, due to a Suarez re-negging on his word the club has been forced into their current position and is taking it up the arse. I hate this position, but the facts are that we are trying to polish a PR turd. There is little benefit of spinning this story, it is what it is, and this fight is a 'fall on your sword' experience.

 

I work with the Media, and I'm usually on the receiving end trying to mitigate their churnalism and shitty reporting, and I understand their perverse way of thinking, and it's a dark path.... a very dark path.

 

The whole Suarez/Evra thing has been a PR disaster for the club since it made headlines. It was mismanaged at the beginning, and has continued to be mismanaged.

 

Sometimes there are battles you fight, knowing you're going to get flogged, but you still fight, sometimes there are fights that it doesn't matter if you're right, you're still going to get flogged. The club is in that position now. The club needs to choose the fights, and going up against Ferguson is a fight that LFC ain't going to win.

 

The first battle that we should of gone in was to appeal the Suarez ban. It was a simple appeal, and management dropped the bundle which allowed for future events to take place.

 

Even if the appeal was lost, LFC would of at least had their day in the box, and would of place some pressure back onto the FA to be accountable and transparent in their findings. By not appealing, the club appeared weak and was happy with a incomplete investigation process. If the FA threatened longer sanctions against Suarez, the club should of called the bluff, because I would of liked to have seen on what grounds they feel they could extend the punishment.

 

The FA should also be held accountable, but again, a fight that LFC is never going to win and would probably suffer for in the long run.

 

It would appear that there is no media strategy in place, it's all reactive on events. There is nothing pro-active done, there is no forward thinking. The well know 'anti-liverpool' media contingency is in full steam, and I see little response from the club on a media front. There doesn't need to be major headlines splashed across papers, over the website and 'breaking news' tickers, all it takes is a page on the website addressing rubbish journalism and correcting inaccuracies in their reporting. It seems the club is too scared to respond, and is allowing itself to become the easy target and is eating one almighty shit sandwich right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have little issues with the latest statements. At the end of the day Suarez should of kept his word.

 

This was the time to act as a professional, and the club has been accountable and transparent and stated the facts. I'm sorry, but no one man is bigger than the club. Luis threw himself under the bus by not keeping his word. He knew the world would be watching.

 

If he couldn't shake Evra's hand, he should of been honest and upfront about it and let the club help him through. There would of been ways to address this which would of mitigated the negative outcomes for which the club and player are now suffering from.

 

Unfortunately, due to a Suarez re-negging on his word the club has been forced into their current position and is taking it up the arse. I hate this position, but the facts are that we are trying to polish a PR turd. There is little benefit of spinning this story, it is what it is, and this fight is a 'fall on your sword' experience.

 

I work with the Media, and I'm usually on the receiving end trying to mitigate their churnalism and shitty reporting, and I understand their perverse way of thinking, and it's a dark path.... a very dark path.

 

The whole Suarez/Evra thing has been a PR disaster for the club since it made headlines. It was mismanaged at the beginning, and has continued to be mismanaged.

 

Sometimes there are battles you fight, knowing you're going to get flogged, but you still fight, sometimes there are fights that it doesn't matter if you're right, you're still going to get flogged. The club is in that position now. The club needs to choose the fights, and going up against Ferguson is a fight that LFC ain't going to win.

 

The first battle that we should of gone in was to appeal the Suarez ban. It was a simple appeal, and management dropped the bundle which allowed for future events to take place.

 

Even if the appeal was lost, LFC would of at least had their day in the box, and would of place some pressure back onto the FA to be accountable and transparent in their findings. By not appealing, the club appeared weak and was happy with a incomplete investigation process. If the FA threatened longer sanctions against Suarez, the club should of called the bluff, because I would of liked to have seen on what grounds they feel they could extend the punishment.

 

The FA should also be held accountable, but again, a fight that LFC is never going to win and would probably suffer for in the long run.

 

It would appear that there is no media strategy in place, it's all reactive on events. There is nothing pro-active done, there is no forward thinking. The well know 'anti-liverpool' media contingency is in full steam, and I see little response from the club on a media front. There doesn't need to be major headlines splashed across papers, over the website and 'breaking news' tickers, all it takes is a page on the website addressing rubbish journalism and correcting inaccuracies in their reporting. It seems the club is too scared to respond, and is allowing itself to become the easy target and is eating one almighty shit sandwich right now.

 

Good post.

 

But I think the one thing I take issue with is the sort of mentality we've developed where we are starting to think there are some battles we can't win.

 

Its probably true, but we've effectively spent the past month or two laying down not fighting and its done us fuck all good, literally diddly squat. The only time we've seen any let up in attacks on us was when Harry was in the dock and good ole JT was in the news for a few days.

 

That was it. I think the biggest mistake that has been made in all of this was never getting our side of things out. We've just seemingly refused to fight back or air our side of views during this whole debacle.

 

Would the media have cared, probably not. But when you're getting the shit kicked out of you why not at least try and fight back rather than sit there whimpering. You might just achieve something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But it makes no difference, Luis should have stopped and ensured the handshake took place, it was his responsibility to do that once he had told Kenny he was going to do it. Luis quite frankly was an idiot for not making sure it happened. Christ if he had stood still offering his hand and Evra rejected it he would have came out looking a whole lot better.

 

 

he probably intended to do it before the game but then in the moment couldn't bare to do it

 

got to remove any doubts that he has been completely stitched up anyway but the Media/Opposition fans won't see it that way

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good post.

 

But I think the one thing I take issue with is the sort of mentality we've developed where we are starting to think there are some battles we can't win.

 

Its probably true, but we've effectively spent the past month or two laying down not fighting and its done us fuck all good, literally diddly squat. The only time we've seen any let up in attacks on us was when Harry was in the dock and good ole JT was in the news for a few days.

 

That was it. I think the biggest mistake that has been made in all of this was never getting our side of things out. We've just seemingly refused to fight back or air our side of views during this whole debacle.

 

Would the media have cared, probably not. But when you're getting the shit kicked out of you why not at least try and fight back rather than sit there whimpering. You might just achieve something.

 

Exactly. If we had a side to present, then bloody well present it. All this "he should never have been banned" nonsense reflected poorly on the club. WHY shouldn't he have been banned? Put up or shut up.

 

But - and I have been saying this for aeons - as a club, as the manager, as the players and as the fans, we really need to move on. Put it to bed as there is nothing to be gained by continually keeping our club in the spotlight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the damaged done by not appealing the Suarez ban has led to where we are today. I also think that the media would of cared if there was an appeal. Put forward a constructive, fact-based defence and enough of the fence-sitting journalists may have sat back and had a decent think about it, instead of falling completely in line and believing the shite the FA dished up.

 

By accepting the findings and not appealing basically gave the FA the last official word and allowed them to hit a home run. We all know there were some issues in the FA findings, but there wouldn't be a journalist with enough balls to actually rise up and point out the errors in the findings. The arrogance of the FA and the 'blackballing' and 'shitlist' that would follow the journalist would mean the end of their career.

 

At least if the appeal was made, the LFC lawyers could of raised objections and questioned the FA about their findings. The questions and the FA answers would have been opened to the public, and the FA would of been squirming in justifying some of their comments. Would it have changed the outcome, probably not, but it may of won over some of the fence-sitters who have now swung their allegiance to Evra's and United's side of the debate.

 

This is a fight the club should of taken, but instead they ran back into the hole and rolled over. There was enough ammunition in the FA's finding to justify an appeal.

 

Another fight should of been the Bellamy yellow versus Fulham.

 

There is now rubbish that the half-time flair-up was due to someone spitting at De Gea. Once again, it's easy to point the finger at Liverpool, but until someone with some balls in the club comes out with an official statement dispelling the allegation, the shit is going to stick. At the moment it is too easy to 'blame' LFC. My bet is that due to the rubbish dished up by De Gea this season, it was probably a United fan, but hey, LFC is in the shit, so lets just add some more wood to the fire.

 

If the FA had any balls, they'd haul in De Gea and ask him some hard questions. Make him accountable for his allegation and going to the media. If he can't prove it was a Liverpool player, then he needs to be kicked in the arse for adding to this current shit fight. Mind you, at the moment the FA would probably believe one Man United player over a squad of Liverpool players.

 

The media are a strange beast, they have the own agenda, and sometimes, be damned if the truth ever comes out, but as long as the story sells papers and makes headlines the reputation of people involved is irrelevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The media are a strange beast, they have the own agenda, and sometimes, be damned if the truth ever comes out, but as long as the story sells papers and makes headlines the reputation of people involved is irrelevant.

 

The media only have one agenda and that is to sell. Papers/advertising/whatever. The accountants at the various HOs will be licking their lips at the furore this whole saga has caused. Journalists who Liverpool fans profess to hate are getting the highest exposure on our forums. Journalists increasing their Twitter following. Column inch after column inch about a race row between England's two most decorated football clubs. The media creative departments couldn't have made this scenario up in weeks upon weeks of dope-smoking and 'blue skying' sessions. It's like the fucking Truman Show where everything is manipulated for the baying masses watching on.

 

But we can put it to bed now. And move the fuck on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suarez was right to apologise, not to Evra, but to Kenny.

 

If he didn't want to shake Evra's hand out of principle, fair enough, but to let it be known that he would, then refuse on the day (and he did refuse) put Kenny in a dreadful position post-match. What does it say about Suarez that he would mislead Kenny like this after the support he's shown Suarez?

 

I love Suarez as a player, and I've defended him up to now, but people need to remember one of Kenny's oft-used maxims: "No-one's bigger than the Club." If that applies to Gerrard and Carragher, it certainly applies to Suarez.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the damaged done by not appealing the Suarez ban has led to where we are today. I also think that the media would of cared if there was an appeal. Put forward a constructive, fact-based defence and enough of the fence-sitting journalists may have sat back and had a decent think about it, instead of falling completely in line and believing the shite the FA dished up.

 

.

 

I thought we could only appeal the length of the ban and not the actual charge? if we did this then we'd only be seen to be "condoning racism" by the Media again

 

and I also read to take it to the COAS the FA would have to agree which they wouldn't as they've now managed to set an example

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suarez was right to apologise, not to Evra, but to Kenny.

 

If he didn't want to shake Evra's hand out of principle, fair enough, but to let it be known that he would, then refuse on the day (and he did refuse) put Kenny in a dreadful position post-match. What does it say about Suarez that he would mislead Kenny like this after the support he's shown Suarez?

 

I love Suarez as a player, and I've defended him up to now, but people need to remember one of Kenny's oft-used maxims: "No-one's bigger than the Club." If that applies to Gerrard and Carragher, it certainly applies to Suarez.

 

It could've been a spur of the moment think, he may have said yes and agreed to do it then see the cunt who has stitched him up and couldn't face shaking his hand

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suarez was right to apologise, not to Evra, but to Kenny.

 

If he didn't want to shake Evra's hand out of principle, fair enough, but to let it be known that he would, then refuse on the day (and he did refuse) put Kenny in a dreadful position post-match. What does it say about Suarez that he would mislead Kenny like this after the support he's shown Suarez?

 

 

Hit the nail on the head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought we could only appeal the length of the ban and not the actual charge? if we did this then we'd only be seen to be "condoning racism" by the Media again

 

and I also read to take it to the COAS the FA would have to agree which they wouldn't as they've now managed to set an example

 

I don't think so, if LFC had a competent PR machine, they could of easily appealed the sentence, along with maintaining that they dont 'condone racism'. Proper public messaging would of gotten them through. To be honest, what did Suarez and/or the club do during his 'time-out' to try and improve his image in the community?

 

There still would of been room, if the legal defence was competent to still fire some shots over the bow of the FA ship.

 

At no time was it asked what punished Evra was to receive for his part of the incident. He's been portrayed as being completely incident, and he's far from it. 8 games, fine we'll take in on the chin, but there are mitigating circumstances which weren't really taken into proper account when the 8 game sentence was decided.

 

I really wonder what would of happened if the roles were reversed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it matters anymore but I think Luis intended to shake his hand, Evra retracted his to wind him up but probably still intending to shake his hand. Luis rather than manning up and just making sure it happened decided then he wasn't going to let it happen.

 

I think Luis told Kenny he intended to shake Evra's hand but in the heat of moment lost his cool when Evra's attempts to wind him up.

 

At the end of the day, The blame still lies with Luis.

 

He should have made sure that handshake happened after he told Kenny he would. He just had to make sure it did.

 

But I just don't think he went in there deliberately intended to fuck Kenny over.

 

This

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Evra definitely drops the hand and is deliberately doing so. Its obvious in the video if you watch it Evra has his hand raised for every other shake then Suarez walks up and he drops before going for the shake once Luis has moved on.

 

No amount of twats in the media bemoaning conspiracy theories can convince me otherwise, its there for all to see in the video and its a disgrace in the 21st century people are being ridiculed for stating whats there to be seen with anyone with eyes.

 

But it makes no difference, Luis should have stopped and ensured the handshake took place, it was his responsibility to do that once he had told Kenny he was going to do it. Luis quite frankly was an idiot for not making sure it happened. Christ if he had stood still offering his hand and Evra rejected it he would have came out looking a whole lot better.

 

What pisses me off though is I think Luis has alluded to what went on with that Tweet he made and I'd bet he'd like to give his side of it but he won't be allowed because our default position on everything over the past few months has been to say nothing and continue getting shafted.

 

I agree with the entire post, but especially the last bit.

 

The whole country thinks Suarez racially abused Evra. Why? Because we've actually said fuck all to make them think otherwise.

 

"We stand by him, we know he's no racist"

 

"There's things we'd like to say but can't"

 

"He should never have been banned in the first place".

 

"His grandfather is black and he was the captain at Ajax and had many black friends"

 

Get to fuck with that half arsed shit. I don't blame Kenny, his hands were tied from above. Should have just called a press conference and laid it all out there as to what we think happened and why he isn't guilty. If the FA want to do something about it, fine, but at least everyone will know Suarez's side of the story, and maybe he wouldn't have fucking everybody outside of LFC and Uruguay thinking he's a racist cunt who told Evra he kicked him because he's black.

 

Suarez let Kenny down by not making sure the handshake took place after saying it would.

 

But it's fuck all compared to how LFC let him down by allowing the whole world and it's dog to have open season on a player they believe to be innocent of the claims made against him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...