Black people underrepresented as managers.

[navbasi]

Dont they have a similar rule for South African rugby? That they have to pick at least one black fella in the national team?

 

Yeah they do. They call it "Positive Discrimination." I remember years ago though they had to pick a black player over a white player just to meet the quota system even though the white player was much better!

[goatboy59]

For every squad at every level of football, on average how many of those players want to end up as managers?

 

We're talking about a job market that gets flooded with applicants every single summer, has already got a load who can't get work from previous seasons (maybe as many as 20-30 years) and let's say half of the clubs are happy with the manager they already have?

 

It's tough on every level, before we start taking skin colour into account.

 

Let's say a manager with two leagues a UEFA Cup a Champions League and the FA cup is having a bit of a struggle so what chance the rest of them!

[Gym Beglin]

Who's complaining that they can't get a job?

If a black manager pointed to a superb record in the amateur leagues, or in the Conference, or similar, and couldn't get a job...then I'd take his point.

Or her point.

Cue people saying that black people can't get a gig lower down the table.

Fine, let's see the application letters, CV's and transcripts of the interviews, then lets have a proper chat.

 

Problem with many lower league clubs is that there is a tendency to hire shit managers, usually ex club legends, and for the time being these people are still predominantly white. I'd revisit the situation again in 10-15 years.

[Abs]

The idea that if you're good enough you'll get the job is laughably naive. The idea that racism, which is still a majority passtime in this country, won't mean that ageing white men would place a glass ceiling on the selection of black managers is, frankly, stupid. Anyone want to bet that the likes of Dave Whelan haven't got the full Jim Davidson and Bernand Manning boxsets sat in their gaffs?

 

I don't particularly agree with positive selection, just solid anti-discrimination law, but it's hard to enforce.

 

I agree with this. people saying if they are good enough, they will get the job lives in cucko land. henry Winter said several lower team chairmen have told him they worry how the fans would react if they hired a black manager.

 

This rule doesnt force anyone to hire a black manager. it just says you have to interview atleast one black manager to give him atleast an honest chance to change someone like Dave Whelans view. i remember when Whelan said he would never hire a foreigner and now he loves Martinez and describe him like a son.

 

some of these white dinosaurs would properly change their mind if they spoke with black managers and Im sure there would be an increase in black manager.

 

I have a friend who grew up in Sweden called mohammed. He use to complain he never got a job interview when he sent his CV. And he used to always claim the problem was his name, i remember telling him thats nonsense. Well he decided to change his name to Adam and suddenly he started to get more interviews with the same CV.

[navbasi]

Wanting Fair Hearing, Not Favouritism...

 

Writing a piece about the introduction of rules forcing clubs to interview black managerial candidates was originally dismissed out of hand on Thursday morning. What was the point of writing something with which everyone would enthusiastically agree? Surely everybody with half a brain in 2011 can see that the discrepancy between black player percentages (25%) and managerial percentages (2%) was worrying and in need of reparation?

 

Apparently not.

 

The reaction from F365 readers to the PFA's quest to increase the number of black managers has been astonishing. We have barely received a whisper in favour of a scheme designed to give an under-represented group a fair hearing. Not a guaranteed job or even an advantage in the workplace, but a fair hearing.

 

'But that's discrimination', has been the cry from those wilfully ignoring the fact that we are not talking about quotas or white people being discriminated against, but simply encouragement for club chairmen and chief executives to listen to a black candidate. If they were going to interview ten people anyway, what's the problem with adding an 11th? The only sacrifice is 40 minutes of somebody's time.

 

'But clubs should employ the best man for the job', is another cry, as if adding another person to the interview list would somehow spoil this process. They will still employ the best man for the job, but perhaps the best man is a black man that otherwise may not have been interviewed.

 

Perhaps the problem is that nobody really believes that in 2011 there are still people being denied an interview purely on the basis of their skin colour. So perhaps they need reminding that most football clubs are run and administrated by middle-aged white men. They may not be overtly racist but there is often a certain generational ignorance.

 

My father is a middle-aged white man and he recently greeted the news of Dai Greene's athletics gold medal with the words: "It's a shame he's Welsh...but at least he's white."

 

Should my father be put in charge of a football club (bloody hell, that's frightening), he would not give an interview to a black man. Should he be forced to interview a black man as part of a panel alongside non-neanderthals and the black man was impressive in his interview (presumably shocking my father by not appearing in a loincloth and carrying a spear), he would automatically become a viable candidate.

 

In an ideal world, we would not be forcing anybody to interview anyone, but it's clear that simply waiting for the football industry to evolve is not working. Thanks in part to the media but also existing managers, black footballers are prized and praised for their pace and athleticism but very rarely for their intelligence. We're all guilty of assigning certain characteristics to certain types of players and sadly, black managerial candidates have suffered.

 

Are we really expected to believe that a player percentage of 25% becomes 2% of managers because black players simply don't want to be managers? Or that they are somehow predisposed not to be good managers? Is it not more likely that they do not attempt to become managers because they believe they will not be given the chance?

 

The key word in that sentence is 'chance'. Judging by the responses of our readers, giving somebody a 'chance' because of their skin colour is unacceptable. Allow us to disagree. Strongly.

 

Wanting Fair Hearing, Not Favouritism... | F365 Says

[WaltonRed]

Nothing against it from me

 

The hostility comes from the very same reason they get overlooked, racism or at least prejudice

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

He can't help it guv, he was brought up in the 40's.

 

Lynching? Choice.

 

"Thick lazy nigger" just in case anyone had forgotten...

 

Ah, come on, he's old and has it 'in his bones'. If you're old and it's at the core of your beliefs, you can call anybody anything you like. It's the rules.

[Jonny83]

On this debate I tend to fall into the category of those who don't believe the current 25% vs. 2% comparison is fair since there tends to be (with some exceptions like Villas-Boas and Robinson) a generational gap between managers and players. How does the current 2% figure stack up against the percentage of players say, 20-25 years ago?

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned though, how does the situation here compare with that in other countries with (at least) a generation of numerous native-born black players like France and Holland? How many black (or non-white) managers ply their trade in those countries league systems? I geniunely don't know, but I'd have thought those journalists who are keenly exploring this issue would have investigated that to see if this is just an English phenomenon or replicated in other countries and either way seeing what conclusions they could draw from that.

 

I would like to think that in a competitive arena like football, any bad apples amongst the chairmen who go out of their way to freeze out potential candidates for any reason other than their ability to get results would be to the detriment of their club and they'd fizzle out, may that's naive and I genuinely don't know either way, but I'm not a mind reader so I can't assume there IS some underlying racism amongst club chairmen either, without conclusive proof.

[goatboy59]

A lot of the time it could be what I call secondary racism, for example if you took a black girl to meet your parents they'd say "oh we're not racist but you're just setting yourselves up for a whole heap of trouble from those who are".

 

It's an odd example but take Hodgson; many fans simply did not want him here and after a few defeats he was getting way beyond the abuse he would have received had we thought it was a good choice initially.

 

I've often wondered what our support would have been like had John Barnes been a failure, if fact I still dread to think what they'd have been like. Fortunately Kenny's judgement was spot on, a trail-blazing decision (for us anyway).

 

It won't be that a club who appoints a black manager has racist fans any more than others, but there will be some racism AND an underlying resentment that their club has been 'chosen' for some kind of positive discrimination social experiment - especially if it went wrong early on.

 

It's already a big enough risk choosing someone for a level they've never managed before (obviously that applies to virtually all black coaches) so someone making that decision will need to have balls the size of boulders.

 

No wonder so many take the easy route, even ignoring young and inexperienced white coaches.

 

So someone major has got to come through with broad shoulders, belligerence and of course great talent and hopefully people can storm through the hole left behind him.

 

Or her.

 

Or him/her oh it's confusing......

[jamespp]

Nothing against it from me

 

The hostility comes from the very same reason they get overlooked, racism or at least prejudice

 

If your for it and Kenny got sacked, who is your candidate to manage Liverpool as we need to interview a black manager? Barnes? Ince? Davis? dont you think that would just be a farce?

[goatboy59]

Here's who could, maybe should have blown the doors wide open

 

Illustrious career, leadership qualities, big England hero, belligerence coming out of his ears

 

Premier League: Were Blackburn Rovers right to sack Paul Ince, or even appoint him in the first place, asks Paul Wilson | Sport | guardian.co.uk

 

Should have got his badges and learned his trade at MK a bit more?

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

If Villlas-Boas had have been black, would he still have gt the chelsea job? I reckon a pound to a pinch of shit he would, if Rijkaard had have got our job instead of Royston, how would people have felt? Ethnicity goes out the window, as these people are hired for their performance.... unlike a gobshite much lauded by the press for being English, and awarded LMA manager of the year for coming 12th in the league.

 

To my memory Gullit was the first black manager in the Premier League, unfairly sacked at Chelsea after winning the FA cup, did ok at Newcastle before a bust up with Shearer did for him.

 

Chris Hughton looked like he was doing a good job at Newcastle but again was fucked off for internal politics - much to the chagrin of the Newcastle supporters. Now manager of brum, would they have turned to him if they were not in such dire straits? Hard to say, certainly looks like the hardest job there since the days of Trevor Francis.

 

If people want a fairer system for hiring people, a true meritocracy, then all HR departmenst should be advised that CV's shoud carry no personal details (name address etc), nor should they give the schools attended, but only grades achieved, and relevant work experience - this is the best chance of truly getting the best candidates to the interview process - at least as long as we concede we are relying on all candidates to be truthful. Problem is, this won't work for footy - as the name can be more important than the skills.

[Gym Beglin]

How many African national teams have a White manager?

 

Just throwing it in there.

[Redexile]

Dont they have a similar rule for South African rugby? That they have to pick at least one black fella in the national team?

 

The government here would like all teams to reflect the demographics of the country whereas most people across all colours would just like the best XI or XV in the case of rugby.

Regarding employment, the government has decreed that employers MUST employ Black people ahead of other races ( the Afrikaners did something similar for their people in the 1940's) or risk missing out on Government tenders etc. This has created a whole slew of what is known as "tenderpreneurs" or black government connected people enriching themselves due to political connections.

[navbasi]

The government here would like all teams to reflect the demographics of the country whereas most people across all colours would just like the best XI or XV in the case of rugby.

Regarding employment, the government has decreed that employers MUST employ Black people ahead of other races ( the Afrikaners did something similar for their people in the 1940's) or risk missing out on Government tenders etc. This has created a whole slew of what is known as "tenderpreneurs" or black government connected people enriching themselves due to political connections.

 

They implemented a similar rule in India where people from "lower castes" were guaranteed a Government job (in India a Government job is a literally job for life) as long as they could get a pass mark in their exams.

 

The idea was good as the Government wanted to give a helping hand to people from less well off backgrounds that would not normally have a chance at such jobs but what ended up happening was you got a load of people that were just scrapping through their exams but straight A students weren't getting the job as they were from high caste.

[Guest TK-421]

How many African national teams have a White manager?

 

Just throwing it in there.

 

Looks like a whole load of whities are in there, unless Eric Gerets has blacked himself up.

 

Nation Manager

 

 

Algeria Vahid Halilhodžić

Angola Lito Vidigal

Benin Denis Goavec

Botswana Stanley Tshosane

Burkina Faso Paulo Jorge Rebelo Duarte

Burundi Adel Amrouche

Cameroon Javier Clemente

Cape Verde Lucio Antunnes

Central African Republic Jules Accorsi

Chad Sherif El-Khashab

Comoros Mohamed Abdéramane Chamité

Congo Jean-Guy Wallemme

Congo DR Claude Le Roy

Djibouti Ahmed Abdelmonem

Egypt Vacant

Equatorial Guinea Henri Michel

Eritrea Negash Teklit

Ethiopia Tom Saintfiet

Gabon Gernot Rohr

Ghana Goran Stevanovic

Guinea Michel Dussuyer

Guinea-Bissau Luís Norton de Matos

Côte d'Ivoire François Zahoui

Kenya Zedekiah Otieno

Lesotho Leslie Notsi

Liberia Roberto Landi (caretaker)

Libya Marcos Paquetá

Madagascar Frank Rajaonarisamba

Malawi Kinnah Phiri

Mali Alain Giresse

Mauritania Moustapha Sall

Mauritius Akbar Patel

Mayotte Mohamed Ahmada

Morocco Eric Gerets

Mozambique Mart Nooij

Namibia Brian Isaacs

Niger Harouna Doula Gabde

Nigeria Samson Siasia

Rwanda Vacant

São Tomé and Príncipe Osvaldo Lima

Senegal Amara Traoré

Seychelles Ralph Jean-Louis

Sierra Leone Lars-Olof Mattsson

Somalia Hussien Abdulla

South Africa Pitso Mosimane

South Sudan Malesh Soro

Sudan Mohamed Abdalla Ahmed

Swaziland Obed Mlotsa (caretaker)

Tanzania Jan Børge Poulsen

Gambia Paul Put

Togo Stephen Keshi

Tunisia Sami Trabelsi

Uganda Bobby Williamson

Zambia Dario Bonetti

Zanzibar Vacant

Zimbabwe Norman Mapeza

[Redexile]

They implemented a similar rule in India where people from "lower castes" were guaranteed a Government job (in India a Government job is a literally job for life) as long as they could get a pass mark in their exams.

 

The idea was good as the Government wanted to give a helping hand to people from less well off backgrounds that would not normally have a chance at such jobs but what ended up happening was you got a load of people that were just scrapping through their exams but straight A students weren't getting the job as they were from high caste.

 

Similarly here they have lowered the passmark for the entrance exams to University for Black students in an effort to increase the number of black students in Uni - as opposed to putting theri efforts into helping the students achieve the higher marks once required. Similarly in industry the poloicy has now created a core of Black professionals who job hop ,with higher salary increases, from company to company due to a severe shortage of skilled black professionals. As an aside to this the SA football team has a black coach and he is doing pretty well with the talent available.

[Redexile]

They implemented a similar rule in India where people from "lower castes" were guaranteed a Government job (in India a Government job is a literally job for life) as long as they could get a pass mark in their exams.

 

The idea was good as the Government wanted to give a helping hand to people from less well off backgrounds that would not normally have a chance at such jobs but what ended up happening was you got a load of people that were just scrapping through their exams but straight A students weren't getting the job as they were from high caste.

 

Similarly here they have lowered the passmark for the entrance exams to University for Black students in an effort to increase the number of black students in Uni - as opposed to putting their efforts into helping the students achieve the higher marks once required. Similarly in industry the poloicy has now created a core of Black professionals who job hop ,with higher salary increases, from company to company due to a severe shortage of skilled black professionals. As an aside to this the SA football team has a black coach and he is doing pretty well with the talent available.