In defence of Hodgson and the utter disgrace that we call football....

[Anubis]

Maybe football hasn't changed didn't Kevin Davies get an England callup today.

 

Owen Coyle has Bolton playing some good football. Completely different to the Real Madrid manager-in-waiting. Davies seems to be enjoying his partnership with Elmander. It must coem as a releif from being the sole target all the time.

[King Emlyn]

Benitez was a very good coach, no question; but the position was wrecking him, he'd become a bloated, red faced mess who had become so embroiled in the politics he couldn't function properly as a coach, we were getting worse and there was a cloud hanging over the entire club; you can deny it all you want but that was the situation. I say again the mistake was the balloon they replaced him with, anyway that's me, it's just boring the tits off me now, we're all going around and around in circles.

[goatboy59]

Owen Coyle has Bolton playing some good football. Completely different to the Real Madrid manager-in-waiting. Davies seems to be enjoying his partnership with Elmander. It must coem as a releif from being the sole target all the time.

 

Nowt wrong with Davies if there's variation. Everton played some of their best ever football with Andy fucking Gray and Joe Royle in their teams. It's when that's all you do that it gets tedious. To be fair to Graham and Arsenal I think they had a bit more variety as well.

 

rome 84 started a thread about Coyle on another forum and I thought 'hello, what does he know?'

 

Turns out he was just expressing his admiration for Coyle.

[goatboy59]

It'll come out in the wash one-day anyway

 

Not from Rafa it won't, he likes his money just where it is.

 

And his internet snides have done their level best and, ah diddums, people still like Jamie Carragher.

 

That's gotta hurt.

[TheHowieLama]

Benitez was a very good coach, no question; but the position was wrecking him, he'd become a bloated, red faced mess who had become so embroiled in the politics he couldn't function properly as a coach, we were getting worse and there was a cloud hanging over the entire club; you can deny it all you want but that was the situation. I say again the mistake was the balloon they replaced him with, anyway that's me, it's just boring the tits off me now, we're all going around and around in circles.

 

I think alot of this is on. IMO Rafa was off as much as he was fired. There was no way they could have got him to stay, much as it was for some of the players in the last 36 months. I know it makes some feel better that we "sacked" Rafa but I do not think it was quite like that. I think it was more like how we "sold" Mascherano.

[Il Fenomeno]

Not from Rafa it won't, he likes his money just where it is.

 

And his internet snides have done their level best and, ah diddums, people still like Jamie Carragher.

 

That's gotta hurt.

 

People still like Rafa aswell, which seems to be hurting you more, seeing as you mention how he wasn't sticking around and how he was such a bad man in every single post.

[RobbieOR]

Benitez was a very good coach, no question; but the position was wrecking him, he'd become a bloated, red faced mess who had become so embroiled in the politics he couldn't function properly as a coach, we were getting worse and there was a cloud hanging over the entire club; you can deny it all you want but that was the situation. I say again the mistake was the balloon they replaced him with, anyway that's me, it's just boring the tits off me now, we're all going around and around in circles.

 

I dont agree with this but I agree with the last 6 words. Even if I tend to bring it up.

[TheHowieLama]

I dont agree with this but I agree with the last 6 words. Even if I tend to bring it up.

 

So you do not agree with the first 6 words of the post? Really?

[goatboy59]

People still like Rafa aswell, which seems to be hurting you more, seeing as you mention how he wasn't sticking around and how he was such a bad man in every single post.

 

Well, I don't but lying doesn't seem to bother any of you so why stop now?

[Joe Le Taxi]

I think Robbie meant the part which stuck out to him the most was the last 6 words because he has praised Rafa on here before.

[Il Fenomeno]

Well, I don't but lying doesn't seem to bother any of you so why stop now?

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

[goatboy59]

Believe me, I expect less than fuck all from you.

[ritchie]

Not from Rafa it won't, he likes his money just where it is.

 

And his internet snides have done their level best and, ah diddums, people still like Jamie Carragher.

 

That's gotta hurt.

 

What are your views on player power?

 

Do you support it?

[Il Fenomeno]

Believe me, I expect less than fuck all from you.

 

If you're going to make the statement that Rafa wasn't going to stay, could you give some proof of that.

 

I mean, someone might think, that you're making things up.

 

Wouldn't want to start false rumours now, would you goaty?

[seedy05]

this is the most loyal club in the world for backing managers and giving them time. but we have never had such a negative manager before always complementing other sides happy with points at home to teams like sunderland and always commenting on the how good the players effort was when it was not existent at home to blackpool.

 

i was convinced even with frank Sinartra and the pink panther in charge that it was not possible to lose at home to blackpool but once again the club stumps to yet another new low.

 

he has made no attempt to bond with fans and hasn't even recognized them being there, when has the bond with any liverpool manager between him and the fans be so low.

 

ROY HODGSON THIS IS NOT FULHAM

[neopulian]

Benitez was a very good coach, no question; but the position was wrecking him, he'd become a bloated, red faced mess who had become so embroiled in the politics he couldn't function properly as a coach, we were getting worse and there was a cloud hanging over the entire club; you can deny it all you want but that was the situation. I say again the mistake was the balloon they replaced him with, anyway that's me, it's just boring the tits off me now, we're all going around and around in circles.

 

And the clouds are still there, much darker, than when he was still here. At which point do people start realizing that the root of the problem lays further up the foodchain?

[Coro]

 

People often point to the rumours about Gerrard leaving if Benitez stayed. Personally I don't believe a player - even one as good as Gerrard - should ever have that much influence over a club.

 

Totally agree.

[TheHowieLama]

I think Robbie meant the part which stuck out to him the most was the last 6 words because he has praised Rafa on here before.

 

OK.

 

I have respected the argument that Rafa had to go for the good of all, I cannot get my head around those who feel because they were vocal about getting him out they need to make the argument that Roy is his equal. He is not. Roy is to Lucas as Rafa was to Xabi, we have been on a downsizing kick for years, and, even now, its gonna get worse before it gets better.

[zico]

Hodgson's system at Fulham, and I suspect every club he's been at judging by his 35 year comment, is to set his team to sit deep in two banks of four, and to let the opposition have the ball. His teams close down the space, not the man. Attack is by way of a long ball to a forward who can take the ball down from the air and hold it until the midfield join him. It's primarily a defensive-based system with small periods of attack during a game - not unlike the percentage football Arsenal played under George Graham.

 

Working properly, with the players necessary to make it work, it can be relatively effective. It will never win you the league, as football has largely moved on from this set up and teams tend to play a more sophisticated game, but it can get you a reasonable set of resyults and maybe even a good cup run.

 

Here's the crux of the matter - we don't have the players to make it work. It requires two centre backs who can handle the many high into your box that the system allows the opposition, and it requires a centre forward who can put himself about physically. The nearest we have to someone who can work in that system is Soto.

 

In addition to the amount of possession it affords the opposition, it also has inherent weaknesses if the team doesn't hold it's shape. Weaknesses ruthlessly exposed by Blackpool on Sunday. If the team playing this system commits too many men forward in support the space between the midfield and defence becomed the opposition's playground, allowing them to mount quick and dangerous counter-attacks in which the defence (still keeping it's shape and sitting deep) are exposed. With a good defensive midfielder (Hamman/Mascherano for instance) you can compensate, but with Poulsen the human traffic cone we cannot.

 

It also leaves the strikers isolated for long periods, and relies very much on the midfield getting forward from deep quickly. The reasonm you can't keep it up for 90 minutes is because the midfield have so much ground to cover that it's impractical to expect them to do it full time. Hence the periods of attack.

 

If you think I'm bullshitting just watch the UEFA Cup final. Fulham sat back for the whole of the first half, and played attacking football for the first twenty minutes of the second, and intermittently thereafter. Sound familiar?

 

The system also curbs the natural abilities of some of our players. Pepe is now squashed into his own six yard box because the defence are sitting deep. Our players aren't the best at defending into high balls into the area. And the system exposes this. We also don't have a forward to make it work. Probably the nearest we have is...er...Soto again!

 

Playing the defensive line further up the pitch allows us to compress the opposition when they have the ball. If you couple that with pressing the opposition it makes it harder for them to mount attacks. They often resort to longer balls over or through your defence. And we have a goalkeeper who is probably the best in the world at anticipating and dealing with that - a world class sweeper in an era when they're extinct.

 

It also makes it easier to mount attacks provided the players are motivated and play the ball at pace instead of the pedestrian stuff we saw last season. When we've done it this season in samll periods I think we've looked good.

 

Unfortunately, at the moment watching Hodgson try to implemenmt this system is like watching a child with a shape block trying to force the shapes into the wrong holes. Something has to give. If we continue, then eventually the players may come to some sort of compromise with the system (through the type of effort they haven't shown so far) and we'll finish further up the table, but it won't be pretty (on or off the pitch) and I don't think it'll get us in the European places.

 

I think Roy has to decide if he wants to persist with this, or if he's prepared to change his thinking and utilise the players in a way which allows them to play more effectively. I hope he will and we can turn this round, because I don't subscribe to this crap squad theory. I think we've shown in flashes that we're capable of being an effective force, but it's ususally come when Roy hass changed the personnel - Poulsen off and Miereles back in the centre, and the team have adopted a more attacking ethos with players pushing forward up the pitch.

 

And we also have to ask ourselves as fans that if the system Roy currently wants to play is put in place, is it the type of football we wanted from the new manager?

 

Now let's pull together and fucking stick it to Everton.

 

Great post, I pretty much agree with all of it...

 

As to Hodgson changing his style he has already said he will not. He told reporters after the Sunderlnd game (I think)that he was one of the most respected coaches in Europe and that it was ridiculous to suggest that he would change a system that had served him well for over 30 years!!

[Guest TesticleOReilly]

Totally agree.

 

The cold hard facts are that we don't sell £20M worth of 'Benitez' or 'Hodgson' shirts every year, and while the game is bloated with gluttony it won't change.

[goatboy59]

If you're going to make the statement that Rafa wasn't going to stay, could you give some proof of that.

 

I mean, someone might think, that you're making things up.

 

Wouldn't want to start false rumours now, would you goaty?

 

"Driven out" to 5m in his arse pocket, the best job in Europe with a boss stadium and efficient hierarchy and a collection of fabulous fully motivated players

 

or

 

Desperate to cling to a sinking ship with no Champions League qualication, a shrinking nay negative transfer budget with a group of talented players mixed with frightful squad chaff, riddled with enmity and a hierarchy about to go bust with manipulative, clueless underlings and a support split right down the middle about his own merits

 

 

Yeah you're right, I definitely need proof that he wasn't going to choose the latter!

 

He didn't want Valencia fans to think he'd just fucked them off, either. Not that I blame him for his latest scoot.

[King Emlyn]

And the clouds are still there, much darker, than when he was still here. At which point do people start realizing that the root of the problem lays further up the foodchain?

Of course the owners are the problem, but for now we've no choice but to get on with it.

[Guest TesticleOReilly]

"Driven out" to 5m in his arse pocket, the best job in Europe with a boss stadium and efficient hierarchy and a collection of fabulous fully motivated players

 

I quite like your posts, they have me laughing a lot, but just to pull you up on that bit there, it disproves your own point. This team that's the best job, boss stadium, great set-up and fab squad ... they wanted him. We didn't. Y'know, the team that could be playing Carlisle in the league next year. Not only we didn't, but we paid £9m for the privilege.

[The Guest]

Hodgson's system at Fulham, and I suspect every club he's been at judging by his 35 year comment, is to set his team to sit deep in two banks of four, and to let the opposition have the ball. His teams close down the space, not the man. Attack is by way of a long ball to a forward who can take the ball down from the air and hold it until the midfield join him. It's primarily a defensive-based system with small periods of attack during a game - not unlike the percentage football Arsenal played under George Graham.

 

Working properly, with the players necessary to make it work, it can be relatively effective. It will never win you the league, as football has largely moved on from this set up and teams tend to play a more sophisticated game, but it can get you a reasonable set of resyults and maybe even a good cup run.

 

Here's the crux of the matter - we don't have the players to make it work. It requires two centre backs who can handle the many high into your box that the system allows the opposition, and it requires a centre forward who can put himself about physically. The nearest we have to someone who can work in that system is Soto.

 

In addition to the amount of possession it affords the opposition, it also has inherent weaknesses if the team doesn't hold it's shape. Weaknesses ruthlessly exposed by Blackpool on Sunday. If the team playing this system commits too many men forward in support the space between the midfield and defence becomed the opposition's playground, allowing them to mount quick and dangerous counter-attacks in which the defence (still keeping it's shape and sitting deep) are exposed. With a good defensive midfielder (Hamman/Mascherano for instance) you can compensate, but with Poulsen the human traffic cone we cannot.

 

It also leaves the strikers isolated for long periods, and relies very much on the midfield getting forward from deep quickly. The reasonm you can't keep it up for 90 minutes is because the midfield have so much ground to cover that it's impractical to expect them to do it full time. Hence the periods of attack.

 

If you think I'm bullshitting just watch the UEFA Cup final. Fulham sat back for the whole of the first half, and played attacking football for the first twenty minutes of the second, and intermittently thereafter. Sound familiar?

 

The system also curbs the natural abilities of some of our players. Pepe is now squashed into his own six yard box because the defence are sitting deep. Our players aren't the best at defending into high balls into the area. And the system exposes this. We also don't have a forward to make it work. Probably the nearest we have is...er...Soto again!

 

Playing the defensive line further up the pitch allows us to compress the opposition when they have the ball. If you couple that with pressing the opposition it makes it harder for them to mount attacks. They often resort to longer balls over or through your defence. And we have a goalkeeper who is probably the best in the world at anticipating and dealing with that - a world class sweeper in an era when they're extinct.

 

It also makes it easier to mount attacks provided the players are motivated and play the ball at pace instead of the pedestrian stuff we saw last season. When we've done it this season in samll periods I think we've looked good.

 

Unfortunately, at the moment watching Hodgson try to implemenmt this system is like watching a child with a shape block trying to force the shapes into the wrong holes. Something has to give. If we continue, then eventually the players may come to some sort of compromise with the system (through the type of effort they haven't shown so far) and we'll finish further up the table, but it won't be pretty (on or off the pitch) and I don't think it'll get us in the European places.

 

I think Roy has to decide if he wants to persist with this, or if he's prepared to change his thinking and utilise the players in a way which allows them to play more effectively. I hope he will and we can turn this round, because I don't subscribe to this crap squad theory. I think we've shown in flashes that we're capable of being an effective force, but it's ususally come when Roy hass changed the personnel - Poulsen off and Miereles back in the centre, and the team have adopted a more attacking ethos with players pushing forward up the pitch.

 

And we also have to ask ourselves as fans that if the system Roy currently wants to play is put in place, is it the type of football we wanted from the new manager?

 

Now let's pull together and fucking stick it to Everton.

 

Sorry I didn't have the time to respond properly before.

 

This post is a complete mess. Did you not watch any of last season? Literally any of it? The defence getting pushed back against garbage opposition. Lone striker getting isolated. Shite wingers not being able to produce any chances for the lone forward (their jobs made harder because of only one player to aim at. Long ball after long ball to the lone forward who tried to bring it down and hold it up but didn't have anyone within 40 yards of him.

 

The 4231 with two heavily defensive midfielders pretty much creates fuck all. It relies on no game plan other than hoping you have a world class player to score a world class individual goal in every game or luck. The only positive is that you restrict the opposition and have a lot more of the ball which is only in your own half.

 

Playing 442 doesn't force the opposition to play long ball football whatsoever. If anything it gives them more time on the ball in the middle of the pitch to pass it. You even say this yourself. The reason we are conceding so much at the moment is because neither Skrtel or Carragher are very good in the air and this has been massively exploited because our full backs just haven't coped this season at all whoever they have been. You could play 6 defensive midfielders and this would still happen. The formation this season has not been the problem at the back.

 

The problem at the other end is creativity. Kuyt has been absolutely dreadful and Jova hasn't settled yet. Along with that Hodgson has largely stuck with Rafa's formation. The one time he was forced to drop it was against City which was the exact game he couldn't start playing with it.

 

He needs to fuck Kuyt off now. He needs to move Johnson to the wing and play Kelly at full back. Put Gerrard and Meireles in centre mid with Ngog and Torres up front and stick with it. The defence will push up naturally. We need to start to remember how to create chances again and get the wingers getting to the byline regularly.

[punkhunter]

Anyone who has a go at Torres needs their head testing. He cant do it all on his own when he is isolated up top with no support around him. Again this is Woy's fault for waiting until about 20 minutes before the transfer window shut to decide he wanted another striker.

 

We needed a striker and he signs fucking konchesky on deadline day and spunks away £6m on Poulsen :(

 

Wrong.

 

Rafa also neglected to find another striker of the same or similar calibre of Nando. Since flogging Keane in Jan 09 we have been desperate for more firepower. And in 5 seasons in charge, he also failed to identify our overall lack of width. This despite him spending nearly £300 million.

 

In fact, on the issue of strikers, it was clear that Rafa didn't actually have a clue who he wanted to play up front. The revolving door of strikers was a relic of his reign.

 

Roy had a matter of weeks to rectify the problems and given peanuts to spend.