Hate The S*n? Vote Here...

[RoboRiise]

got this off the votes forum..

 

""As for the Sun - we have seen unusual voting patterns and are aware of lobbying on some Liverpool based football websites. We will allow the vote to stand, but when we announce the result in next weeks email will note this has happened - which I think is the right solution.""

 

Martin

 

so we are not the public then..

 

 

Oh come on. I know Hillsborough is an emotive subject for all of us, but you have to be looking for a reason to be offended to read that into the comment you posted from Martin Lewis's forum.

 

Saying that the poll is skewed is entirely accurate, there's no positive or negative connotation attached to it, it's a statement of fact.

 

A later comment says:

 

While I don't object to it - it is certainly a skew, as the voting is coming from a separate group of people and a disproportionate number as would normally be expected in a statistical random sample (not that the poll is one - but this certainly takes it further away)

 

 

The polls on there are supposed to represent the view of the UK population. As the comment above acknowledges, the poll doesn't manage that anyway - it's not a cross section of the UK population, it's a cross-section of the readers of a single internet forum. By voting, we've changed the usual demographics of the poll because yesterday, I'd say over a quarter of the overall votes were from Liverpool fans.

 

Changing the sample group doesn't necessarily change the outcome in any important way though. For example, if you asked 5,000 Liverpol fans what their favourite flavour of crisp was and did the same thing to 5,000 people picked at random from the UK electoral rolls (making it a non-random sample by restricting it to registered voters) I bet the answers would be broadly comparable. There are some issues that I'd expect most Liverpool fans would have similar, strong opinions about though and obviously this is one of them.

 

On top of that, there's the question. The question is absolutely fundamental because everyone needs to be asked the same one if you want to suggest the answers are representative. For anyone visiting there from the link on here or another Liverpool forum, the question was effectively:

 

"Do you hate the S*n newspaper for the lies it published after Hillsborough?"

 

There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's a perfectly fine question but on the website, the question that the rest of the voters were answering was:

 

If you were given a magic wand to make one of the following 50 companies simply not exist – for the betterment of the UK - which would you pick (in other words, ignore the job loss impact)? The selection includes big name media companies, banks, airlines, retailers and utility companies.

 

 

Even without the links on here and elsewhere, I reckon most Liverpool fans would have scrolled down the page cursing a few names before getting to the S*n at no. 45 on the list and immediately voting. Thing is, if you mention the S*n to most Liverpool fans the first thing they think of is Hillsborough. Mention it to Micky the plumber from Luton and I bet the first thing he thinks of is either tits or paedo schoolteachers. Possibly both.

 

If you asked the usual readership of Martin Lewis's site something like:

 

"Do you think a public enquiry should be opened into the conduct of the South Yorkshire Police during the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989?"

 

then I think you'd get plenty of positive responses, especially in view of the very supportive coverage of the anniversary and the subsequent agreement to release previously unseen information. Most non-Liverpool fans don't immediately think about a twenty year old headline when you mention the rag though - it wouldn't even be in their minds when voting.

 

Take that strength of feeling away and anyone that's being fucked up the arse over their mortgage won't vote for a shit newspaper ahead of HBOS. Yesterday, no-one with a Christmas flight booked with BA would have voted for the S*n ahead of them. There's a United fan I work with who's being shafted over charges by HSBC - he probably wouldn't think to vote for the rag, even though he was disgusted by the headline, because there are two companies on the list he's been fucked about by this year. People will vote based on the things that affect their lives and the S*n's coverage of Hillsborough is not uppermost in people's minds outside Liverpool.

 

The upshot is that the result won't be representative of the UK population in general, or even the regular readership of Martin Lewis's site. It seems reasonable for them to explain that and doing so doesn't imply that our opinion is less valid, or unwanted - it just explains a difference in the makeup of the sample. The fact that the S*n had such a high proportion of votes after the poll was linked suggests it's statistically important.

Edited December 18, 2009 by RoboRiise

[Lucky Pierre]

Oh come on. I know Hillsborough is an emotive subject for all of us, but you have to be looking for a reason to be offended to read that into the comment you posted from Martin Lewis's forum.

 

Saying that the poll is skewed is entirely accurate, there's no positive or negative connotation attached to it, it's a statement of fact.

 

A later comment says:

 

 

 

 

The polls on there are supposed to represent the view of the UK population. As the comment above acknowledges, the poll doesn't manage that anyway - it's not a cross section of the UK population, it's a cross-section of the readers of a single internet forum. By voting, we've changed the usual demographics of the poll because yesterday, I'd say over a quarter of the overall votes were from Liverpool fans.

 

Changing the sample group doesn't necessarily change the outcome in any important way though. For example, if you asked 5,000 Liverpol fans what their favourite flavour of crisp was and did the same thing to 5,000 people picked at random from the UK electoral rolls (making it a non-random sample by restricting it to registered voters) I bet the answers would be broadly comparable. There are some issues that I'd expect most Liverpool fans would have similar, strong opinions about though and obviously this is one of them.

 

On top of that, there's the question. The question is absolutely fundamental because everyone needs to be asked the same one if you want to suggest the answers are representative. For anyone visiting there from the link on here or another Liverpool forum, the question was effectively:

 

"Do you hate the S*n newspaper for the lies it published after Hillsborough?"

 

There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's a perfectly fine question but on the website, the question that the rest of the voters were answering was:

 

 

 

 

Even without the links on here and elsewhere, I reckon most Liverpool fans would have scrolled down the page cursing a few names before getting to the S*n at no. 45 on the list and immediately voting. Thing is, if you mention the S*n to most Liverpool fans the first thing they think of is Hillsborough. Mention it to Micky the plumber from Luton and I bet the first thing he thinks of is either tits or paedo schoolteachers. Possibly both.

 

If you asked the usual readership of Martin Lewis's site something like:

 

"Do you think a public enquiry should be opened into the conduct of the South Yorkshire Police during the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989?"

 

then I think you'd get plenty of positive responses, especially in view of the very supportive coverage of the anniversary and the subsequent agreement to release previously unseen information. Most non-Liverpool fans don't immediately think about a twenty year old headline when you mention the rag though - it wouldn't even be in their minds when voting.

 

Take that strength of feeling away and anyone that's being fucked up the arse over their mortgage won't vote for a shit newspaper ahead of HBOS. Yesterday, no-one with a Christmas flight booked with BA would have voted for the S*n ahead of them. There's a United fan I work with who's being shafted over charges by HSBC - he probably wouldn't think to vote for the rag, even though he was disgusted by the headline, because there are two companies on the list he's been fucked about by this year. People will vote based on the things that affect their lives and the S*n's coverage of Hillsborough is not uppermost in people's minds outside Liverpool.

 

The upshot is that the result won't be representative of the UK population in general, or even the regular readership of Martin Lewis's site. It seems reasonable for them to explain that and doing so doesn't imply that our opinion is less valid, or unwanted - it just explains a difference in the makeup of the sample. The fact that the S*n had such a high proportion of votes after the poll was linked suggests it's statistically important.

So basically, what you're saying is that Liverpool fans tend to prefer Cheese and Onion flavour crisps?

[Kennys_spell]

Oh come on. I know Hillsborough is an emotive subject for all of us, but you have to be looking for a reason to be offended to read that into the comment you posted from Martin Lewis's forum.

 

Saying that the poll is skewed is entirely accurate, there's no positive or negative connotation attached to it, it's a statement of fact.

 

A later comment says:

 

 

 

 

The polls on there are supposed to represent the view of the UK population. As the comment above acknowledges, the poll doesn't manage that anyway - it's not a cross section of the UK population, it's a cross-section of the readers of a single internet forum. By voting, we've changed the usual demographics of the poll because yesterday, I'd say over a quarter of the overall votes were from Liverpool fans.

 

Changing the sample group doesn't necessarily change the outcome in any important way though. For example, if you asked 5,000 Liverpol fans what their favourite flavour of crisp was and did the same thing to 5,000 people picked at random from the UK electoral rolls (making it a non-random sample by restricting it to registered voters) I bet the answers would be broadly comparable. There are some issues that I'd expect most Liverpool fans would have similar, strong opinions about though and obviously this is one of them.

 

On top of that, there's the question. The question is absolutely fundamental because everyone needs to be asked the same one if you want to suggest the answers are representative. For anyone visiting there from the link on here or another Liverpool forum, the question was effectively:

 

"Do you hate the S*n newspaper for the lies it published after Hillsborough?"

 

There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's a perfectly fine question but on the website, the question that the rest of the voters were answering was:

 

 

 

 

Even without the links on here and elsewhere, I reckon most Liverpool fans would have scrolled down the page cursing a few names before getting to the S*n at no. 45 on the list and immediately voting. Thing is, if you mention the S*n to most Liverpool fans the first thing they think of is Hillsborough. Mention it to Micky the plumber from Luton and I bet the first thing he thinks of is either tits or paedo schoolteachers. Possibly both.

 

If you asked the usual readership of Martin Lewis's site something like:

 

"Do you think a public enquiry should be opened into the conduct of the South Yorkshire Police during the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989?"

 

then I think you'd get plenty of positive responses, especially in view of the very supportive coverage of the anniversary and the subsequent agreement to release previously unseen information. Most non-Liverpool fans don't immediately think about a twenty year old headline when you mention the rag though - it wouldn't even be in their minds when voting.

 

Take that strength of feeling away and anyone that's being fucked up the arse over their mortgage won't vote for a shit newspaper ahead of HBOS. Yesterday, no-one with a Christmas flight booked with BA would have voted for the S*n ahead of them. There's a United fan I work with who's being shafted over charges by HSBC - he probably wouldn't think to vote for the rag, even though he was disgusted by the headline, because there are two companies on the list he's been fucked about by this year. People will vote based on the things that affect their lives and the S*n's coverage of Hillsborough is not uppermost in people's minds outside Liverpool.

 

The upshot is that the result won't be representative of the UK population in general, or even the regular readership of Martin Lewis's site. It seems reasonable for them to explain that and doing so doesn't imply that our opinion is less valid, or unwanted - it just explains a difference in the makeup of the sample. The fact that the S*n had such a high proportion of votes after the poll was linked suggests it's statistically important.

 

But isn't it true to say that if the link to that Vote had NOT been posted on this site, many of the people who have voted on it (and would have like to) wouldn't have been aware of the poll and therefore would have skewed the poll that way?

[kop]

26% (4293 votes). #2 on the list has 7%.

[RoboRiise]

But isn't it true to say that if the link to that Vote had NOT been posted on this site, many of the people who have voted on it (and would have like to) wouldn't have been aware of the poll and therefore would have skewed the poll that way?

 

 

No.

 

The poll is skewed compared to other polls on that site precisely because a large number of people have only voted on that poll and they were all scousers, Liverpool fans or both - the sample group is fundamentally different. If that hadn't happened, it would be comparable to the other polls on the site and so not skewed at all.

 

I agree it would have been a shame if people that felt strongly enough about the issue to want to vote didn't have the opportunity to do so, it just doesn't change the fact that the outcome of the poll is not representative of the views of the UK public in general, unless about 20-25% of the UK public are scousers, Liverpool fans or both.

 

When the results are declared, pointing out that a large number of people voted for the S*n after being made aware of the poll by an "internet campaign" just allows the results to be looked at in context. It's neither a good or a bad thing, it's just information and it certainly doesn't suggest that we aren't part of the public, which was the comment my post was addressing. I'd expect them to do exactly the same thing if BA hadn't been forced to call off their strike and a group of disgruntled customers posted the link around travel websites.

 

It's a good thing that twenty years on, the strength of feeling about the rag's actions hasn't diminished - some things you can forgive, some things you can forget but this isn't one of those things.

 

 

So basically, what you're saying is that Liverpool fans tend to prefer Cheese and Onion flavour crisps?

 

 

Yes, exactly right.

Edited December 19, 2009 by RoboRiise

[The Chef]

25%-4469 votes against.Good enough for the lyin shithouse rag