Liverpool fans “celebrating” at Heysel?

[razor]

Fans of Liverpool FC might be interested to read the introduction to this academic study of football hooliganism in the 1980s. According to this distinctly under-researched piece, which was published under the auspices of Dr Arthur G Ogden, PhD, who is the Dean of Academic Affairs for the grandly titled United States Sports Academy in their publication Sports Journal, Liverpool fans urinated on and celebrated over the people they killed at Heysel. They apparently also wore ski-masks and carried pick-axe handles and clubs.

 

Dr Ogden is not interested in correcting these errors, and is quite prepared to allow public access to the piece on the United States Sports Academy web site.

 

The opening to the piece reads:

 

No event illustrates the social phenomenon of "soccer hooliganism" more dramatically than the deaths of 39 Italian spectators at the European Cup Final between the Liverpool Football Club and the Italian team Juventus, played at Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium on May 29,1985 at the hands of soccer hooligans from Liverpool, England.

 

After viewing film of the incident, Belgium authorities identified groups of Liverpool fans as those who instigated vicious attacks against the Italian fans, which in turn led to a stampede of people attempting to escape the violence. The Liverpool soccer hooligans were the ones wearing ski masks and carrying various weapons including, pick axe handles and clubs. The brutality of the event was further heightened by eyewitness accounts claiming the Liverpool soccer hooligans were urinating on the corpses and jumping around in celebration. In time, the main offenders were brought to trial and sentenced in a Belgium court.

 

This is certainly not how I remember the events. Out of curiosity, I cross-referenced the sources used by the two authors AJ Hayley and Brian S Johnson and discovered that they had quite deliberately misrepresented the books and articles they had read. They wanted a dramatic opening, not wanting to consider the facts, which might get in the way.

 

This is not the work of an anonymous internet blogger or messageboard poster, these are well-qualified academics writing for a published magazine in America.

 

I have been in touch with Dr Ogden, the person who oversees the publication of the journal, and he is fully aware of the inaccuracies, but is not prepared to remove or even change the article.

 

Maybe Liverpool fans who disagree with the stance of this magazine will be able to persuade him. His contact details are Arthur G Ogden, Dean of Academic Affairs, United States Sports Academy, 1 Academy Drive, Daphne, Alabama 36526. His phone number is 001-251-626-3303, Ext 7158.

 

His email address

 

aogden@ussa.edu

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

Lets 'stevie sinatra' this Dr Dickhead

[Magic Sponge]

Put his email address up, the fucking horrible cunt. Or if you have the link from the website. Looks to me as the usual case of "say something really controversial that causes a big shit storm, to give publicity to my inept study".

Edited October 23, 2009 by Magic Sponge
Email address noted.

[RedinSweden]

That is fucking ridiculous. Well found razor. Good work.

[razor]

If you could link this to as many people as possible / other sites, we may get this sorted by sundown.

 

I've got a link to a more balanced view of Heysel from a Juve fan, but I can't post it.

 

from a Juve fan site long

 

I'd like someone to email the link to Dr Ogden. He should read it.

 

It seems better researched than his academic pals could manage. But it doesn't carry the weight of academia behind it, of course.

 

I told him in my many emails to him that the lesson to be learned was to not commission pieces from people who have no cultural understanding of what they are writing about. He's not interested.

[Lurtz]

I'm gobsmacked that after all the years of campaigning against the sun, a so called academic can come out and publish something as vile, sensationalist and as factually incorrect as that.

[Fowlers God]

Cunt

[Guest The Chimp]

I'm gobsmacked that after all the years of campaigning against the sun, a so called academic can come out and publish something as vile, sensationalist and as factually incorrect as that.

 

There are some American academics out there (Gerald Gems for example) who do write well on the subject of football, but this tends to be US-centric and not related to stuff over here. This clown isn't one of them. Indeed, he's not really an academic Mike. I know of him and his organisation as they were involved with the Ministry of Youth and Sport in Malaysia and setting up educational programmes there. The organisation he's chair of is little more than a money spinner offering degrees and post-grad awards in sports-related stuff - although they're worth fuck all (in much the same way you can buy degrees online or get credit for working in any area really). I'm acutely unaware of any of peer-reviewed publications that have appeared in decent journals such as the International Journal of the History of Sport, the Sport History Review, Sporting Traditions etc., from this joker - and without sounding a cunt, I'd know. Even if I wasn't involved in the field though, I know he'd never get published with shite like the above.

 

Set loose the hounds.

 

 

Edit: And yeah, well done Razor for bringing this to people's attention.

[House of Dirk]

It wouldnt surprise me if this ubercunt had any dealings with Cohen in the course of his research.

[dave u]

I also immediately thought that Cohen may have been involved in some way.

 

The problem we have here is that we don't want to give this twat the publicity he wants, but equally it can't be left unchallenged.

[JohnnyH]

A section of our fans were utter scum that day. That we know, and that we will always have to accept our blame for.

 

However, what grate with me is Juve fans turning their backs on us at Anfield in 2005 and proclaiming to hate us. You just have to look at the tv footage of the day and see all the Juve fans with scarves covering their faces as they hurl bricks and attack Liverpool fans. There is the footage of a Liverpool pleading with the police and a Juve fan bricks him in the back of the head.

 

It is my firm belief that day that if the ends were revered then there would have been Liverpool fans killed under that collapsing wall.

 

Some of our fans acted like scum that day, but so did plenty of Juve fans.

[Dr.Filth]

I also immediately thought that Cohen may have been involved in some way.

 

The problem we have here is that we don't want to give this twat the publicity he wants, but equally it can't be left unchallenged.

 

Me too, it stinks of him.

 

I'd be leaning towards not giving him the publicity if it was up to me personally.

 

Plus, It wouldn't be difficult for the usual cunts to twist it and portray us as trying to defend Heysel. We'd be in a no win situation.

[Dougie Do'ins]

A section of our fans were utter scum that day. That we know, and that we will always have to accept our blame for.

 

However, what grate with me is Juve fans turning their backs on us at Anfield in 2005 and proclaiming to hate us. You just have to look at the tv footage of the day and see all the Juve fans with scarves covering their faces as they hurl bricks and attack Liverpool fans. There is the footage of a Liverpool pleading with the police and a Juve fan bricks him in the back of the head.

 

It is my firm belief that day that if the ends were revered then there would have been Liverpool fans killed under that collapsing wall.

 

Some of our fans acted like scum that day, but so did plenty of Juve fans.

Great comment that JohnnyH. I'd go a step further and say that, given the climate that surrounded football at the time and given the condition of the stadium the same outcome would have occured no matter what two teams participated in that final.

 

There's a misconception especialy amongst younger people that every other clubs supporters were immaculately behaved and it was only our fans that caused trouble.

[Malarkey]

Great comment that JohnnyH. I'd go a step further and say that' date=' given the climate that surrounded football at the time and given the condition of the stadium the same outcome would have occured no matter what two teams participated in that final.

 

There's a misconception especialy amongst younger people that every other clubs supporters were immaculately behaved and it was only our fans that caused trouble.[/quote']

 

I believe the same thing. Casual culture was meant to have ruled that day. And from what I've been told, well, let's say provoked is an understatement.

 

Still, nothing deserves the taking of human life.

[Guest The Chimp]

Fair play to Johnny, Mick and Mick here - salient points lads.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

Me too, it stinks of him.

 

I'd be leaning towards not giving him the publicity if it was up to me personally.

 

Plus, It wouldn't be difficult for the usual cunts to twist it and portray us as trying to defend Heysel. We'd be in a no win situation.

 

You're right. In trying to explain to people, in any way whatsoever, that the actions of that day were happening all over europe with a small proportion of all teams fans getting involved in rioting, violence etc, and that it was a tragic accident (which it was. nobody meant to collapse the stadium and kill people. i don't know what they thought they were acheiving rioting but thats another story), it would seem that we would be defending the actions of the people fighting, which is not the case at all. They are responsible. But it could have happened at any old stadium across europe. But I bet you'd have a hard time tryin to convince a manc the difference between the two!

[razor]

I agree with the above observations.

 

The reasons for Heysel are complex and many: clearly too complex to be adequately addressed by these American "sociologists".

 

But the inaccuracies of this publication cannot pass unchallenged.

 

Urinating on and celebrating over the dead!?

 

I wrote a long and detailed email to Dr Ogden, outlining the reasons why this article should be removed from public access.

 

Amazingly, he is standing by its academic rigour, when clearly it is a shameful piece of sub-standard writing.

 

He does his organisation no credit in doing so.

[Joe Le Taxi]

A section of our fans were utter scum that day. That we know, and that we will always have to accept our blame for.

 

However, what grate with me is Juve fans turning their backs on us at Anfield in 2005 and proclaiming to hate us. You just have to look at the tv footage of the day and see all the Juve fans with scarves covering their faces as they hurl bricks and attack Liverpool fans. There is the footage of a Liverpool pleading with the police and a Juve fan bricks him in the back of the head.

 

It is my firm belief that day that if the ends were revered then there would have been Liverpool fans killed under that collapsing wall.

 

Some of our fans acted like scum that day, but so did plenty of Juve fans.

 

Was this in 2005 or at the disaster? It was before my time and all I have to go on is articles and people's own stories. Infact, it has been so twisted over time that I am not sure what to believe and this is worrying to other young fans as some will believe it.

 

I also thought that Cohen had some part to play in this.

[TheBitch]

Bad thing this.

[Guest The Chimp]

I agree with the above observations.

 

The reasons for Heysel are complex and many: clearly too complex to be adequately addressed by these American "sociologists".

 

But the inaccuracies of this publication cannot pass unchallenged.

 

Urinating on and celebrating over the dead!?

 

I wrote a long and detailed email to Dr Ogden, outlining the reasons why this article should be removed from public access.

 

Amazingly, he is standing by its academic rigour, when clearly it is a shameful piece of sub-standard writing.

 

He does his organisation no credit in doing so.

 

There simply is none though. I might have a look here and see what can be done about this prick. I'm thinking not much though, as he has no academic standing anyway.

 

Razor - would you know Tony Mason, John Williams, John Sugden, Rex Nash etc?

[JohnnyH]

Was this in 2005 or at the disaster? It was before my time and all I have to go on is articles and people's own stories. Infact, it has been so twisted over time that I am not sure what to believe and this is worrying to other young fans as some will believe it.

 

I also thought that Cohen had some part to play in this.

 

Turning the backs was in 2005.

 

The violence by both sets of fans was in 1985.

 

Anyway, if you want to look at where this all started then Roma fans have a hell of a lot to answer for from teh year before. There actions of knifing and ambusing fans shoudl have resulted in a ban for Italian clubs the year before.

 

Weren't Everton fans also given a huge fine that week for actions by their fans during their UEFA Cup run?

 

One thing I want to be very clear on is I am not in any way shape or form trying to diminish our own responsability that day. We charged, and innocents died, and we have to accept our full blame for that. However, there were an awful lot of others involved other then us, and the reason our fans charged the chicken wire seperating us was because a bunch of teenage liverpool fans were been beaten to a pulp by about 50 Juve fans in that middle zone.

[23_Carra_Gold]

They didn't all turn their backs. I wasn't there like so I've only seen pictures but it seems those who refused the olive branch were in the minority.

 

u_mVm7LwKCc

[zigackly]

They didn't all turn their backs. I wasn't there like so I've only seen pictures but it seems those who refused the olive branch were in the minority.

 

Aye, it was their Ultras at the front.

[JohnnyH]

Yes, I know they all didn't. I was fucked off at the ones that did. I had a very interesting chat in the pub earlier that day with some Juventus fans and they fully accepted what I had to say to be fair. They did tell me that some were going to turn their backs, but seemed to hint that the ones that were, would have been the ones throwing bricks at us at Heysel had they been old enough at the time.

[23_Carra_Gold]

Aye, it was their Ultras at the front.

 

The Ultras are the same people who had the fatal 'us against them' mentality in 1985. Their bitterness seems to have carried through for over 20 years so their opinion doesn't bother me.

 

In that video you see old heads applauding the gesture. For me, those are the people whose opinion matters. Real supporters who respect a sincere gesture from fellow fans of football.