Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Pidge]

5 hours ago, Hades said:

Did not refute the central point.

There is no point - in every sense. 

 

Also, you still haven't acknowledged Seasons' post.

[Rotpeter]

24 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Not heard that one before. I need to mix in more bigoted circles.

It's cockney rhyming slang.  It's not really used pejoratively.

[Oh Buoy]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:54 AM, Hades said:

It's not an ad hominem attack. It's a correct description of what the current left does to the poor and especially the children of the poor. In this respect, your fundamentalist Christians are greater allies of the poor than leftists. Encouraging children to chop their genitals off and massively increase their risk of suicide because a handful of rich kids want to rebel against their authoritarian fathers is not reasonable.

Some more research surrounding suicide and transgender: 

 

2018: Each set of factors explained significant variance in each outcome; however, only several predictors remained significant in each of the full models. Gender-related victimization and depressive symptoms were independent predictors for all three outcomes. Additional predictors varied across outcome. Age, male identity, sexual orientation-based victimization, and friend support were associated with suicide attempt. Age, queer identity, gender-related self-concept negativity, and family support were associated with suicide ideation, and pansexual identity and gender-related self-concept negativity were associated with positive suicide risk screen. https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2017.0259

 

2018: Factors that consistently distinguished transgender/GNC youth who reported self-harm from those who reported no self-harm included reports of a mental health problem, depression, running away from home, and substance use (alcohol or marijuana use). Factors that distinguished the NSSI + SA group from the NSSI only group were reports of a mental health problem, physical or sexual abuse, relationship violence, bullying victimization, less parent connectedness, lower grades, lower levels of perceived school safety, and running away from home. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13811118.2018.1430639

 

2018: Data were collected from 203 TrevorSpace (e.g., a social network for LGBTQ youth) users via online survey to examine suicidal and help-seeking behaviors among LGBTQ individuals. Among participants who reported suicidal ideation/behavior, a large proportion did not seek help (73.1% of gay men, 33.3% of bisexual men, 42.9% of bisexual women, 14.3% of lesbian women, 41.2% of queer individuals) when they considered or attempted suicide. Among those who sought support, reaching out to a friend was most common. However, family support was associated with fewer suicidal behaviors. Our findings underscore the need to examine the effectiveness of specific sources of help and the impact of exposure to social connectedness. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13811118.2018.1430639

 

 

 

 

[Hades]

Approximately 41% of transgender people attempt suicide at least once in their lives compared to the rate of 5% in the general population.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933817318357

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-01/young-trans-people-at-higher-risk-of-suicide-report-finds/8861156

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Hades said:

Approximately 41% of transgender people attempt suicide at least once in their lives compared to the rate of 5% in the general population.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933817318357

How the fuck does anyone know the real stats. Maybe transgender are a bit more open about it but the 'general' don't like telling people too much. Nonsense stats that have no fucking bearing to the topic anyway. Fuck you Hades. you are the new SD (he seems to have mellowed) and I neg you with great vengeance and furious anger. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

15 hours ago, Sugar Ape said:

None of the issues surrounding Trans rights really impact me, or any man on the forum I'd imagine. My opinion though is that the likes of Graham Linehan and Germaine Greer who have been labelled as bigots and worse is wrong and is shutting down valid debate.

 

Making it as simple as " if you say you're a woman, then you're a woman " as the likes of Owen Jones advocates will cause loads of issues and while we obviously should listen to what trans people want, I find that the voices of women are drown out and they are labelled as bigots if they have any problems sharing, for example, a women's changing room with someone who has got a cock.

 

My Mrs and a few of her mates were talking about it the other day and none of them would feel comfortable at all with the above scenario, nor do they think they should have access to things like shelters for abused women or be able to accompany girls scouts and such like as chaperones. Does that make them bigoted? I'm sure some people on here will think so, but personally I'm not comfortable, as a man, telling women they can't think this. And the issues are all with men transitioning to women not the other way around, obviously to do with women feeling more vulnerable.

 

So some of the issues of the top of my head I think need looking at are access to women only places, not only in prisons but also in wider society, if someone has got a fully functioning cock. The rapidly increasing amount of children coming out as transgender also needs researching properly, the treatment and medication such children receive, and the amount who ' grow out ' or change their minds as they get older. The no platforming of people like Germaine Greer who has gone from feminist hero to bitter old bigot on this issue. And the participation of trans women in women only sports. Such as this trans woman who won a cycling world championship yesterday.

 

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/not-fair-runner-fumes-transgender-world-champion-075054632.html

 

Some quotes from her:

 

She is obviously right in that if you are legally recognised as a woman then you should be able to compete as such, however trans women will have a massive advantage over people born female and that's only going to cause issues. Not sure what the answer is, should they compete in their own category?

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you're advocating, namely having a wider discussion about this and not jumping to cry bigotry, I have a bit of a problem with the "feeling uncomfortable" argument. It's natural to feel uncomfortable with anything that isn't familiar, and it isn't necessarily a sign that something shouldn't be allowed or is a threat. There were similar instances of people feeling uncomfortable when asked to mix with other races or those of a different sexuality. Obviously safety concerns are to be taken seriously, but to me it seems a touch reminiscent of when gay men were seen as a threat to children, and potential paedophiles.

 

I'm not advocating an anything goes attitude, where we all share communal facilities and wave our bits about, but I'm always a little wary when the crux of an argument is a lack of comfort with an idea. We can't change our gut reactions (I still get a bit weirded out seeing two blokes kissing), but we can change how that manifests itself in our actions and acceptance of others.

[Sugar Ape]

24 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you're advocating, namely having a wider discussion about this and not jumping to cry bigotry, I have a bit of a problem with the "feeling uncomfortable" argument. It's natural to feel uncomfortable with anything that isn't familiar, and it isn't necessarily a sign that something shouldn't be allowed or is a threat. There were similar instances of people feeling uncomfortable when asked to mix with other races or those of a different sexuality. Obviously safety concerns are to be taken seriously, but to me it seems a touch reminiscent of when gay men were seen as a threat to children, and potential paedophiles.

 

I'm not advocating an anything goes attitude, where we all share communal facilities and wave our bits about, but I'm always a little wary when the crux of an argument is a lack of comfort with an idea. We can't change our gut reactions (I still get a bit weirded out seeing two blokes kissing), but we can change how that manifests itself in our actions and acceptance of others.

 

I don’t think it’s anything like past attitudes towards gay people, for example, which is something I see raised often. Or at least I mean in relation to the points I make.

 

How some people generally feel about trans people might be comparable but I don’t think specific issues like access to women’s only space means you are a bigot if it makes you feel uncomfortable. 

 

You can’t walk around Asda and Tesco bollocko and do your shopping can you? And why not really, you’re not causing any harm except making people uncomfortable.

 

” I don’t like to see trans people walking down the street, they make me uncomfortable “ would be bigoted, for me. 

 

“ I don’t like a trans woman sharing a shower room with me after the gym, I feel uncomfortable when they look at me with their cock swinging between their legs and I’m naked “ would not be bigoted and I don’t think we’ve got any right to tell women they have to accept that and be comfortable with it.

[SasaS]

So it's mostly a women's rights issue, since man don't really care who uses the same toilet or shower facility? This one time, off the hook here.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

11 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

I don’t think it’s anything like past attitudes towards gay people, for example, which is something I see raised often. Or at least I mean in relation to the points I make.

 

How some people generally feel about trans people might be comparable but I don’t think specific issues like access to women’s only space means you are a bigot if it makes you feel uncomfortable. 

 

You can’t walk around Asda and Tesco bollocko and do your shopping can you? And why not really, you’re not causing any harm except making people uncomfortable.

 

” I don’t like to see trans people walking down the street, they make me uncomfortable “ would be bigoted, for me. 

 

“ I don’t like a trans woman sharing a shower room with me after the gym, I feel uncomfortable when they look at me with their cock swinging between their legs and I’m naked “ would not be bigoted and I don’t think we’ve got any right to tell women they have to accept that and be comfortable with it.

But are there any instances of your final example? It seems that, like the scare stories of gay men waving their cocks about at youth clubs or such like in tabloids, these exagerated hypothetical scenarios are counterproductive to having the kind of discussion you highlighted was necessary. 

[Sugar Ape]

17 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

But are there any instances of your final example? It seems that, like the scare stories of gay men waving their cocks about at youth clubs or such like in tabloids, these exagerated hypothetical scenarios are counterproductive to having the kind of discussion you highlighted was necessary. 

 

As it stands now I wouldn’t imagine many places would allow people with male genitalia in women’s only spaces, the ongoing consultation is about allowing that for people who identify as trans women and, potentially, making it illegal to not allow it.

 

But as one example that male rapist who said he was a woman to get moved to a female prison and then assaulted women, I was reading from a relative of a woman who was in prison with him that he’d stand in the showers with an erection watching them.

 

Now you might class that as an outlier, but equally it can be taken as a warning that making it easier for people to do will inevitably lead to an increase in such incidents, and I can understand if a lot of women oppose it.

 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

2 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

As it stands now I wouldn’t imagine many places would allow people with male genitalia in women’s only spaces, the ongoing consultation is about allowing that for people who identify as trans women and, potentially, making it illegal to not allow it.

 

But as one example that male rapist who said he was a woman to get moved to a female prison and then assaulted women, I was reading from a relative of a woman who was in prison with him that he’d stand in the showers with an erection watching them.

 

Now you might class that as an outlier, but equally it can be taken as a warning that making it easier for people to do will inevitably lead to an increase in such incidents.

 

Yep, I'd definitely call that an outlier and a massive fuck up in many ways.

 

I'm perfectly happy with the discussion taking into account safety concerns, just as men wanting to work with children tend to get viewed more strictly, but my main gripe was with the "feeling uncomfortable" argument, which history tends to show us is largely based on a lack of socialisation with those viewed as "others". I dare say many straight men don't feel comfortable sharing communal facilities at gyms etc with gay men. 

[cloggypop]

Transsexuals seem to spend a lot of time hanging out in the changies. 

[Sugar Ape]

Just now, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Yep, I'd definitely call that an outlier and a massive fuck up in many ways.

 

I'm perfectly happy with the discussion taking into account safety concerns, just as men wanting to work with children tend to get viewed more strictly, but my main gripe was with the "feeling uncomfortable" argument, which history tends to show us is largely based on a lack of socialisation with those viewed as "others". I dare say many straight men don't feel comfortable sharing communal facilities at gyms etc with gay men. 

 

It depends on the context in my opinion, like i said in my initial post. I don't view some women's concerns with opening up some of their spaces to self ID trans women as comparable to how gay people were treated in the past.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Hey, Rapey, why the cock hate? Eh? 

 

Sickens me. 

 

 

[Sugar Ape]

8 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Hey, Rapey, why the cock hate? Eh? 

 

Sickens me. 

 

 

 

The less cock in the women's changies, the more for me, am I right?

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Holy shit. Yes. 

 

Gays against Trans in Women's Changing Rooms. The acronym needs work.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Not heard that one before. I need to mix in more bigoted circles.

I'm one of those anti-Semitic Corbynistas that the papers keep writing about. 

[Oh Buoy]

2 hours ago, Hades said:

Approximately 41% of transgender people attempt suicide at least once in their lives compared to the rate of 5% in the general population.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933817318357

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-01/young-trans-people-at-higher-risk-of-suicide-report-finds/8861156

 

First of all, let's dismiss the news article you posted here. If I wanted someone to interpret a journal and make it sound horrifying, I'd just stick to reading fiction. 

 

You've quoted the first line of that journal and dismissed everything else. For the purpose of anyone else passively reading this, I'll add the results section for you: 

 

"The literature review showed several unique risk factors contribute to the high rate of suicide in this population: lack of family and social supports, gender-based discrimination, transgender-based abuse and violence, gender dysphoria and body-related shame, difficulty while undergoing gender reassignment, and being a member of another or multiple minority groups."

 

I'm struggling to see where 'Christian fundamentalist encouraged me to chop my genitals off and that is why I attempted suicide' fits in here. Sure, you could factor that in to 'trans-based abuse/violence' but then we're heading down the path of type of violence, level of threat/risk etc. 

 

Happy to break down any further journals that you may wish to use to support your original point though, mate. 

 

 

[moof]

I think the idea that you use the absolute worst caricature of a transgender woman I.e. a perverted sexual predator who wants to intimidate and scare women; and use that to argue for discrimination against all transgender women is, frankly, a bit sick. 

[Oh Buoy]

1 hour ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

As it stands now I wouldn’t imagine many places would allow people with male genitalia in women’s only spaces, the ongoing consultation is about allowing that for people who identify as trans women and, potentially, making it illegal to not allow it.

 

But as one example that male rapist who said he was a woman to get moved to a female prison and then assaulted women, I was reading from a relative of a woman who was in prison with him that he’d stand in the showers with an erection watching them.

 

Now you might class that as an outlier, but equally it can be taken as a warning that making it easier for people to do will inevitably lead to an increase in such incidents, and I can understand if a lot of women oppose it.

 

I think it's easy to see this an outlier in a case of someone cheating the system for their own personal gain. It's common for those in DV to experience similar situations to this (e.g. manipulation to gain access). I'd be conscious as to how much emphasis we're placing on this event and not acknowledging the security dilemma in isolation. 

 

What people seem to be dismissing here is that violence can still (and does) happen in a women-only environment (physical, sexual/penetration etc) without including the topic of transgender or the male gender. The event you've pointed out about is a security risk which could have technically happened if it had been a woman by default. 

[Mook]

 

[Sugar Ape]

13 minutes ago, Seasons said:

I think it's easy to see this an outlier in a case of someone cheating the system for their own personal gain. It's common for those in DV to experience similar situations to this (e.g. manipulation to gain access). I'd be conscious as to how much emphasis we're placing on this event and not acknowledging the security dilemma in isolation. 

 

What people seem to be dismissing here is that violence can still (and does) happen in a women-only environment (physical, sexual/penetration etc) without including the topic of transgender or the male gender. The event you've pointed out about is a security risk which could have technically happened if it had been a woman by default. 

 

How would any subsequent assaults be reported in the crime statistics,  for example would someone who self identified as a woman, and raped another woman with their penis, be classed as a same sex attack? I'm sure the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by males on females so I can understand why a lot of women don't want biological men in their spaces, and I think it is understandable that any outliers are emphasised by women who are worried that making it easier for people to self ID as another gender could increase these occurrences.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

When a trans person is in close proximity to non trans people, the most likely victim of abuse remains the trans person. There will always be exceptions, but the risks remain very much on their part, be that in either male or female company.

[Section_31]

As if by magic I had my first internal email before from someone with a bloke's name and it said under his signature:

 

"My preferred pronouns are He, Him, and His'. 

 

Sweet baby Jesus stop the world I want to get off. 

[Oh Buoy]

1 hour ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

How would any subsequent assaults be reported in the crime statistics,  for example would someone who self identified as a woman, and raped another woman with their penis, be classed as a same sex attack? I'm sure the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by males on females so I can understand why a lot of women don't want biological men in their spaces, and I think it is understandable that any outliers are emphasised by women who are worried that making it easier for people to self ID as another gender could increase these occurrences.

I don't work within the legal framework so how a crime would be reported/actioned with regards to self-ID/trans (pre/post-op) isn't something I have expertise in. It would however be obvious that more sexual assaults are committed by those of the opposite gender due to the probability of there being a higher ratio of heterosexuals to homosexuals. 

 

However, the emphasise of relevance comes to a security issue rather than whether the someone has a penis or not. Same-sex and opposite-sexual violence happens within certain spaces, how you'd manage someone abusing that system is something that should be debated with regards to how that's managed. For instance, if anyone could easily change their gender, why could they not then change their nationality, race etc - there's clearly a need for a framework and process to reduce risk.