Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Hades]

14 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

How long do you reckon it would have to be for it to be a "stage" that they might grow out of?  What if they'd considered themselves the other sex for 10 years for example?

 

 

As long as the delusion holds up. We're in the third wave of existentialism, we're nowhere near as free as we think. The old moralilty was right about most of human nature. There are hard biological limits and especially limits to free will. If we go significantly against our biological programming we will suffer.

[Jose Jones]

49 minutes ago, Hades said:

 

As long as the delusion holds up. We're in the third wave of existentialism, we're nowhere near as free as we think. The old moralilty was right about most of human nature. There are hard biological limits and especially limits to free will. If we go significantly against our biological programming we will suffer.

Who’s this “we” you’re talking about Hades? Do you consider yourself a transgender or intersex person?

[Hades]

4 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

Who’s this “we” you’re talking about Hades? Do you consider yourself a transgender or intersex person?

What gave you that impression? I have deep sympathy for their suffering but am gravely concerned that young children are too readily being exposed to modern propaganda rather than the timeless wisdom of the ages.

[Jose Jones]

1 hour ago, Hades said:

What gave you that impression? I have deep sympathy for their suffering but am gravely concerned that young children are too readily being exposed to modern propaganda rather than the timeless wisdom of the ages.

Because of "If we go significantly against our biological programming we will suffer."

 

If it is not you who are suffering, what right would you consider you have to stop someone who is suffering from making a decision that would benefit them?

 

But now I see it's because you have all the timeless wisdom of the ages - he who wields that hammer has all the right in the world.

[Rico1304]

8 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

How long do you reckon it would have to be for it to be a "stage" that they might grow out of?  What if they'd considered themselves the other sex for 10 years for example?

 

I think in general they are able to make the decision when they are 18.  As an adult.  There’s nothing to stop them living as the other sex until that point of course.  But taking drugs and operations should wait until 18 IMO.  Can’t see anything controversial in that. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

How long do you reckon it would have to be for it to be a "stage" that they might grow out of?  What if they'd considered themselves the other sex for 10 years for example?

 

I think adulthood is a line I’d draw, but with most things like this, we need guidance from medical experts. Surely anything before puberty is just crazy? The body and mind changes a lot at that point. 

[Section_31]

I think there's a difference between letting your child live as a different gender and actually letting them have an irreversible operation for example. You wouldn't let your kid have a tattoo at that age I'd imagine, so wouldn't let them have gender surgery either.

 

 

[Rico1304]

10 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

I think there's a difference between letting your child live as a different gender and actually letting them have an irreversible operation for example. You wouldn't let your kid have a tattoo at that age I'd imagine, so wouldn't let them have gender surgery either.

 

 

Spot on.  Even in adults about half of those having the op regret it.  

[Jose Jones]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think adulthood is a line I’d draw, but with most things like this, we need guidance from medical experts. Surely anything before puberty is just crazy? The body and mind changes a lot at that point. 

 

2 hours ago, rico1304 said:

I think in general they are able to make the decision when they are 18.  As an adult.  There’s nothing to stop them living as the other sex until that point of course.  But taking drugs and operations should wait until 18 IMO.  Can’t see anything controversial in that. 

 

I guess the issue is probably that at puberty shit really hits the fan.  What if you’d been living as a male for 10 years and then suddenly got a period and tits?

 

I’d imagine that would have seriously major psychological impact.

 

What if medical evidence showed that people making a transition prior to puberty had much better long term physical and psychological outcomes?

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

I think there's a difference between letting your child live as a different gender and actually letting them have an irreversible operation for example. You wouldn't let your kid have a tattoo at that age I'd imagine, so wouldn't let them have gender surgery either.

Yeah, I think you're right. I know (or think) in some cases that this is a physical brain thing that doesn't go away. I'm not convinced that's in all cases, so hormones and shit... acting on a growing body? I'm out.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

I guess the issue is probably that at puberty shit really hits the fan.  What if you’d been living as a male for 10 years and then suddenly got a period and tits?

 

I’d imagine that would have seriously major psychological impact.

 

What if medical evidence showed that people making a transition prior to puberty had much better long term physical and psychological outcomes?

Well, if there's solid medical guidance on that, we have to take it even if it doesn't fit in with what we consider to be right or wrong. That said, I'm not sure it should be something that is immediately taken seriously. I would be surprised if people didn't change their mind quite a lot. Had they done things first... it's tricky, and I'm not and expert, so really I'm just fumbling through the entire thing on instinct. 

[Jose Jones]

30 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Well, if there's solid medical guidance on that, we have to take it even if it doesn't fit in with what we consider to be right or wrong. That said, I'm not sure it should be something that is immediately taken seriously. I would be surprised if people didn't change their mind quite a lot. Had they done things first... it's tricky, and I'm not and expert, so really I'm just fumbling through the entire thing on instinct. 

Yeah it’s really difficult stuff.

I would just be wary of anyone confidently asserting a view as the definitive answer.

[Rico1304]

As I understand it an M to F operation inverts the penis into a vagina. Without puberty it would be impossible to achieve Pauline’s 8 inch depth.  

[Remmie]

On 10/16/2018 at 3:49 PM, Section_31 said:

Good post.

 

I agree, but unfortunately I think our society amplifies everything and turns it into a cause celebre, with any concerns levelled being dismissed as bigotry. 

 

For every person genuinely agonising over this, there's probably 10 sets of trendy parents in Brighton with daughters called Tofu who they dress up as Mr T and wheel out at dinner parties.

You know Tofu? One of my best mates, I pity the fool who disagrees

[Section_31]

3 hours ago, rico1304 said:

Spot on.  Even in adults about half of those having the op regret it.  

Would deffo keep my dick on the mantle piece. 

 

Always fancied getting one of my bollocks replaced with a plasma ball.

[3 Stacks]

15 hours ago, Hades said:

 

As long as the delusion holds up. We're in the third wave of existentialism, we're nowhere near as free as we think. The old moralilty was right about most of human nature. There are hard biological limits and especially limits to free will. If we go significantly against our biological programming we will suffer.

This sounds like one of those Rust Cohle rants in True Detective. 

[Remmie]

Not that well educated on the subject, but are there really that many post-operative gender reassignment patients that have changed their minds? There appears to be a lot of concern about this change of heart potential and wondering if there is that much merit for the concern based on the few examples I know of people going through gender reassignment. I'd imagine it is something people just know about themselves from a very early age, like I always knew I wanted to be a dad and many gay people always knew they were gay. Happy to be proved wrong though as I have a tiny sample size to work with.

[Oh Buoy]

36 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Not that well educated on the subject, but are there really that many post-operative gender reassignment patients that have changed their minds? There appears to be a lot of concern about this change of heart potential and wondering if there is that much merit for the concern based on the few examples I know of people going through gender reassignment. I'd imagine it is something people just know about themselves from a very early age, like I always knew I wanted to be a dad and many gay people always knew they were gay. Happy to be proved wrong though as I have a tiny sample size to work with.

Depends which evidence you wish to support your case: 

 

Non-regret: 

Background

Surveys on quality of life (QOL) of male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals have found low QOL scores before and increased satisfaction scores after sex-reassignment surgery (SRS). To our knowledge, many of them lack standardized questionnaires and comparisons with normative data to evaluate different vaginoplasty techniques.

 

Aim

To analyze patient satisfaction and QOL after SRS.

 

Methods

Forty-seven patients participated in this study. All patients had surgery with our self-developed combined technique on average 19 months before the survey. They completed a self-developed indication-specific questionnaire concerning demographic and socioeconomic issues and postoperative satisfaction. Furthermore, a standardized self-assessment questionnaire on satisfaction and QOL (Fragen zur Lebenszufriedenheit Module [FLZM]; Questions on Life SatisfactionModules) was used. The FLZM consists of three modules (general life satisfaction, satisfaction with health, and satisfaction with body image) with scores of weighted satisfaction for each item. Results of the general and health modules were compared with normative data.

 

Outcomes

Demographics, QOL, general life satisfaction, satisfaction with health, and satisfaction with body image.

 

Results

The self-developed indication-specific questionnaire showed that 91% experienced an improvement of QOL. All patients stated they would undergo SRS again and did not regret it at all. Patients stated their femininity significantly increased. For the FLZM, the sum score for general life satisfaction (P < .001) was significantly lower than the normative data, whereas the sum score of the satisfaction with health module (P = .038) did not reach statistical significance. The two modules also showed positive trends for different items. Values of the body image module showed a significant increase in satisfaction with breasts (P < .001) and genitals (P = .002).

 

Clinical Implications

The findings of this survey emphasize the importance of SRS in the interdisciplinary gender-reassignment process. The detailed description of our combined technique could help to improve the surgical outcome and patient satisfaction of this complex and non-standardized surgery.

 

Strengths and Limitations

This is the first description of a new surgical technique (combined technique) for MTF SRS. QOL was assessed by a large number of patients by standardized questionnaires and could be compared with normative data. Because this is a retrospective study, we can draw only careful conclusions for pre- and postoperative changes.

 

Conclusion

Our self-developed combined surgical technique seemed to have a positive influence on QOL after SRS. Satisfaction with breasts, genitals, and femininity increased significantly and show the importance of surgical treatment as a key therapeutic option for MTF transsexuals.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1743609517301224

 

Regret: 

Objective

To evaluate quality of life and patients' satisfaction in transsexual patients (TS) after sex reassignment operation compared with healthy controls.

 

Design

A case–control study.

 

Setting

A tertiary referral center.

 

Patient(s)

Patients after sex reassignment operation were compared with a similar group of healthy controls in respect to quality of life and general satisfaction.

 

Intervention(s)

For quality of life we used the King's Health Questionnaire, which was distributed to the patients and to the control group. Visual analogue scale was used for the determination of satisfaction.

 

Main Outcome Measure(s)

Main outcome measures were quality of life and satisfaction.

 

Result(s)

Fifty-five transsexuals participated in this study. Fifty-two were male-to-female and 3 female-to-male. Quality of life as determined by the King's Health Questionnaire was significantly lower in general health, personal, physical and role limitations. Patients' satisfaction was significantly lower compared with controls. Emotions, sleep, and incontinence impact as well as symptom severity is similar to controls. Overall satisfaction was statistically significant lower in TS compared with controls.

 

Conclusion(s)

Fifteen years after sex reassignment operation quality of life is lower in the domains general health, role limitation, physical limitation, and personal limitation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015028208038387

[Rico1304]

I honestly can’t remember where I heard 50% and a quick google tells me I could well be wrong. 

 

20% seems the correct number. 

 

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of "post-operative" transsexuals finds up to 20% regret transitioning and no conclusive evidence was found that shows gender reassignment surgery improves the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, wrote David Batty in the UK Guardian.

[Hades]

6 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

This sounds like one of those Rust Cohle rants in True Detective. 

The series writer was influenced by horror writer and pessimistic philosopher Thomas Ligotti, of whom I'm a huge fan. Well spotted.

[Section_31]

1 hour ago, rico1304 said:

I honestly can’t remember where I heard 50% and a quick google tells me I could well be wrong. 

 

20% seems the correct number. 

 

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of "post-operative" transsexuals finds up to 20% regret transitioning and no conclusive evidence was found that shows gender reassignment surgery improves the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, wrote David Batty in the UK Guardian.

I wanted no knob, then I lost my knob, heaven knows I'm miserable now-how.

[Oh Buoy]

Programme on C4. Not sure how decent it is as its only just started. 

[Elite]

On 11/1/2018 at 8:07 PM, Hades said:

The series writer was influenced by horror writer and pessimistic philosopher Thomas Ligotti, of whom I'm a huge fan. Well spotted.

You a fan of a pessimist? Well I'll be damned!

[SasaS]

18 hours ago, Seasons said:

Programme on C4. Not sure how decent it is as its only just started. 

 

I bet it was some explosive stuff.

[Rico1304]

This is an interesting article:

 

https://unherd.com/2018/11/dont-trans-activists-practise-preach/