Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Strontium]

You half expect her to start delving down the back of the settee for a cracker ("Jacob's, mind, none of that foreign muck").

 

Can't believe we are entrusting the future of this country to these bovine cretins.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

You half expect her to start delving down the back of the settee for a cracker ("Jacob's, mind, none of that foreign muck").

 

Can't believe we are entrusting the future of this country to these bovine cretins.

Democracy, eh!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1062

 

THE SELECTIVE BLINDNESS OF "LEFTIES" WHO SUPPORT BREXIT

 

"How can you, as a leftie, support remaining in the EU?" It is a question I am asked with increasing frequency by fellow progressives who support Vote Leave, and it is one over which I have genuinely agonised.

Let me start with a free admission: There is no doubt that the EU has been captured by neoliberal interests. As a Greek, I have experienced first-hand the combined brutality of imposed privatisation, liberalisation and austerity. "How can you, as a Greek, support the UK staying in the EU" is a common permutation of the more general question. The short answer is: because I have made a rational assessment of what the world looks like post-Brexit. 

I will put aside schools of thought which yearn for violent revolution or anarchy, for the moment. I do not dismiss them. I am just honest about the fact that, both politically and psychologically, I find I prefer solutions which do not involve bringing about the maximum amount of trauma.  

That isn't to say that those who say "the EU is part of the establishment, therefore by striking a potentially fatal blow to the EU, we wound the establishment" do not have an intellectually honest point. They might. But experience has taught me that "the establishment", however one chooses to define it, has a profound capacity to plan for shock and usually has a plan B. 

Therefore, I am still left in the position of trying to divine what the world looks like post-Brexit.

 

THE POST-BREXIT SOCIALIST UTOPIA

It is precisely by looking at that post-Brexit world, that I can say with absolute confidence, both as a Greek and as a leftie, that I find a vote for the UK to remain in the EU to be the only rational choice. In order to explain why, it is interesting to look at an attitude I find fairly typical within the leftie Brexit camp, or Lexit, as it has come to be known. 

I questioned a supporter of Lexit as to what the objective was. His reply was: "1. Leave neoliberal institution of EU. 2. Elect democratic socialist Govt. 3. Inspire others 4 Form community of like-minded". 

 

My immediate observation, looking at that list is that it is the wrong way around. 

Surely, in a democracy, one must start from forming a community of like-minded individuals, which then inspires others, builds momentum, elects a a socialist government, which then takes on the EU's current warped manifestation. So why the strange reversal of aims? I venture to say it is because the left in the UK has failed miserably at 2, 3 and 4 in the last two elections - and, arguably, much longer than that. 

This position then becomes a sort of irrascible transference of electoral frustration; a bad-tempered reaction to being defeated by "conventionality" which drives one to strike at anything conventional, just because they can. But it is based on three fundamental misconceptions: 

 

A DENIAL OF THE PRESENT

The EU does not have a de facto character. It is simply the aggregation of member states' political character and it can take this shade or that depending on prevailing circumstances. The EU which in the late 90s delivered unprecedented workers' protections, human rights legislation, and pressed for gender equality and product safety - to name but a few areas - is definitively and patently not a "neoliberal institution". 

The blithe scapegoating of the European Union for every ill, by every government of a member state for decades, with the help of a crude media, has facilitated a notion of "Brussels" as a sort of Cthulu-like dark entity emanating malevolence. But that is a red herring, and a dangerous one at that, since it masks the precarious position in which progressive politics finds itself and enables denial. 

The truth is that most of Europe - indeed, most of the world - is going through a profound crisis of values. The seismic shock of the global financial crisis not only caused the plaster to fall on our heads, but more importantly exposed fatal, unfixable, structural flaws in the underlying structure. 

The reaction to this failure of capitalism, for the most part, has been the imposition of a panicked, ill-thought-out, turbo-charged neoliberal austerity. In other words, we have responded to a system failing, with more of the same system. This has had a deeply negative effect  on the credibility of centre-left, centrist and centre-right politics, who had all long embraced free-market dogma. 

It is fantasy to suggest that, at this moment of capitalism hyper-ventilating and lashing out at every single level of government, all one needs to do is fillet a random level away and what will be left will be a socialist utopia. You only need to look at the progress made in Switzerland and Norway by the far right, not to mention Trump's emergence in the US, to realise that this shift to the right is a western phenomenon - not an EU one. 

 

AN UNREALISTIC VIEW OF THE FUTURE

Then we come to the idea that by pushing the eject button, we will land somewhere soft and socialist. This, too, is nonsense. It reminds me of certain unions, unhappy with Callaghan, advising their members to vote for Thatcher whose overreach they were certain would topple capitalism. 

Economically, there can be no doubt that Brexit (or Lexit - you can call it something different, but the result is precisely the same), will have grave implications. Short-term the result for the UK is almost certainly recession. I believe current estimates, branded "pessimistic" by the Vote Leave campaign, are actually very optimistic, because nobody seems to be taking into account the wider effect. 

First, the EU will not be an inert or passive body post-Brexit. It is a powerful economic bloc, right at our doorstep, who will now be a competitor, and whose only chance of survival - in order to preempt a possible exit-stampede - is to fight the UK with all its might. Being able to point to the UK's exit and say "look at the disaster that was" is the EU's only viable strategy. Underestimating this is willful blindness. 

Second, the Eurozone itself is still in a middle of a crisis and anything that destabilises it, could plunge it further down a precipice on which it has been teetering for five years. This will have global implications. Not only will we antagonise our closest trading partner, but we risk bringing about a second peak to a global crisis which is still very much rumbling under the surface. This will have a double recessionary effect, entirely of our own making. 

The notion that this - magically, somehow; nobody has offered details of how - will lead to the election of a "democratic socialist government" is fanciful. It will, as surely as B follows A, bring about more fear, more austerity and - by inevitable extension - more misery for the poorest and the most vulnerable. As a socialist, I cannot ignore that in favour of a fiction. Politics is not a sport. 

 

BLINDNESS TO FORESEEABLE CONSEQUENCE

The idea of "Lexit" in and of itself is quite telling. It is an attempt to say "we want the same result as those far-right people, but not for the same reasons". Implicit within that is a cynical acknowledgment: None could argue that UK's exit from the EU will not be seen broadly as a victory for the right and far right. The same far right that is gaining ground all across the Western world; the same far right that just lost an election in Austria by 0.6%. This will inevitably buoy them. Saying "I know this will happen, but it's not what I want" is neither here nor there. 

I can find no rational support for the argument that the UK - especially the UK - will be the historical counter-example to this rule. I cannot find any rational way of seeing a situation where we leave the working class of this country at the mercy of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage - having wilfully stripped away hard-earned layers of protection for human rights, for working conditions, for equality, for consumer protection - as anything other than a giant regressive step. 

This is where the UK is so different to Greece. Greece's politics are, on average, to the left of the EU aggregate. This is why, as a Greek, I did support a controlled exit from the single currency. It was clear to me that Greece wanted to go in a socialist direction. Its departure would have a much smaller effect on the cohesion of the total. In effect, Greece had achieved "2, £ and 4". 

The exact opposite is true of the UK. Its politics are, on average, to the right of the EU. The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy. 

 

ROW WHILE YOU PRAY

We are at a point in time when the possibility of Trump in the US, Johnson in the UK, LePen in France, Putin in Russia and Islamist fundamentalists controlling large parts of the Middle East and Africa is a possibility. I hope it is unlikely, but it is undeniably possible. 

Referenda, much like online petitions, have a way of becoming political wish-fulfilment; a projection of our wider desire for instant gratification, a capitalist notion itself. Many across the political spectrum and both sides of this debate are guilty of it. Battling slowly towards a better world is hard work. We just want to tick a box and get it; the political equivalent of "click and collect". There is an old Greek saying: Pray for the Gods to get you to shore, but row while you do it. 

With circumstances as they are, nationally and globally, actively opting for a choice which destabilises Europe and strengthens the far right is nothing short of destructive. Doing so in exchange for the vague promise of magical socialism, when in fact the campaign is being spearheaded by the right wing of the right wing, seems to me downright daft. 

Start from "2, £ and 4". Make the case for progressive politics. Build coalitions across borders. Socialism is an internationalist movement for a reason. There is strength in unity and weakness in division. If we all do that in our communities and our countries, the character of the European Union will start to change again. 

The EU is a progressive project; it is our project. Let us not abandon it or withdraw from it, leaving it to the mercy of the interests which have captured it and hope it goes away. Let us not concede that we lost the war, withdraw to our castle and call it a victory. Let us react to the cracks in our house by fixing it; not by setting it on fire and locking ourselves in our bedroom. 

Row while you pray, friends. Row while you pray. 

 

 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Laughing my arse off at Farage preaching to about 15 OAP's from his purple battle bus, fucking bell. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I don't want Gillian Duffy to be a European either. I hope the cunt never leaves Rochdale.

Fucking "identity".

 

When people start bringing up those sort of assertions, I can't even argue, because it's such vapid, meaningless drivel that there are no real points to get hold of.

[Stu Monty]

Always have a wry smile when people are going on about "the bloody Europeans".

 

Mate, I'm a Montagu, sell that shit elsewhere.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Stu Monty, Stu Monty,

Wherefore art thou Stu Monty?

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I had to laugh at that idiot on the BBC news whining about there being two aisles of Polish food in his local supermarket. 

[Jairzinho]

I did like the fella with long grey hair in Bristol telling those out campaigners that we're a shitty little island and that we're not about to suddenly rule the world again.

[ROADENDSMIG]

I am not the cleverest man in the world never pretended to be lets get that straight before I start.This whole in / out has really made me realise how little I actually know !!

 

I am sure of one thing who ever invented the term "Brexit" wants fucking shooting, why not call it is what it is a referendum. 

 

Here is where my confusion starts,

I hear people talking about the pro and cons of being in Europe. Immigration seems to be one of the biggest issues. I have even heard somebody say, that the problem with to much traffic on the roads, is because we have let to many people in. I can't share this point of view, its narrow minded in the extreme to me. I understand that immigration is, a hot topic and there are scared people blaming it for everything that is wrong in this country, but from my point of view, if we tighten immigration, will that then free up time & resources to take a look at the British born people ? Those who live amongst us, who never have or never will contribute anything. We have a least one generation who, refer to ordinary hard working men & women as the knob with the job. Surely we have to deal with our own matters before we blame everybody else for our problems. 

The safety blanket, however flimsy the EU seems to offer is costing millions of pounds a year to be a part of. For me a simple man, its like cash out on BET365, we might not get what we set off to get, but at least we get something. While the other option is taking the risk of putting a whole nations populous and many, many future generations well being into the hands of people so hell bent on making their lives better than the the masses. This is scaring the shit out of me. I also think, now my kids are of working age, that some more of our working rights were taken away from us in when the minimum wage was introduced. I am under no illusion, that many people have gained since 1998, but I also fear, that the minimum is now the benchmark of what employers pay. My daughter, works for a large high street retailer, its not minimum wage, but these limited hours contracts that seem to be the new vogue, in recruitment are in some ways a state/business control over employees. I fear that by the time my grandchildren come along, with present attitudes and working practices, the poor little fuckers will work till they die, be told when, how and where they are expected to but never have the security and stability I have been lucky enough to have in my job.

 

I know there are only 2 possible outcomes to this vote, I don't feel responsible enough to either keep us in a corrupt establishment that seems to think one cap fits all or a corrupt establishment that will destroy the very people, they need in order to gain such self serving power.. I am really worried, that if I feel this way, there must be others who feel as ill-informed and confused. I am really concerned that we won't be able to change a wrong decision, but we wont ever know what the right decision is.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Just to put your mind at ease there mate, if you're worried about your knowledge on politics, you lost me at Referendum.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

You had me at "Shoot the cunt who coined the term 'Brexit' ".

[Section_31]

Politicians don't have a knowledge of politics, gone are the days of great statesmen, they're all buffoons. 

[Creator Supreme]

I vote for Armageddon!

 

The human race is a despicable mess - always divided by rich/poor, religion, nationality etc etc etc instead of concentrating on the fact that we're all the same species, all fallible, all equal, and all as susceptible to high doses of gamma radiation as the next man, woman or hermaphrodite.

 

Push the button Vlad, and let's have done with this joke!!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Politicians don't have a knowledge of politics, gone are the days of great statesmen, they're all buffoons. 

I was thinking of something similar, when I was thinking about drugs policy.  They could base policy on scientific evidence, for the benefit of the entire population; or they could base it on the latest Daily Mail headlines, as the safest and easiest way to get themselves re-elected.

[suzy]

You had me at "Shoot the cunt who coined the term 'Brexit' ".

 

Exactly! Can't bear these made up names, especially this one

[Bobby Hundreds]

Im looking forward to czexit and Luxembexit.

[njackets]

How come Corbyn has been keeping his head down through all this?

[cloggypop]

How come Corbyn has been keeping his head down through all this?

Well, the whole thing is really about a power struggle for control of the Tory party.

[Anubis]

How come Corbyn has been keeping his head down through all this?

He hasn't. It's just that the media are more interested in what is really a battle for the Tory leadership.

[Spy Bee]

How come Corbyn has been keeping his head down through all this?

Because he's openly been in favour of leaving the EU, but is now towing the party line of wishing to stay. He's actually going on holiday when the referendum is on.

[njackets]

Because he's openly been in favour of leaving the EU, but is now towing the party line of wishing to stay. He's actually going on holiday when the referendum is on.

This is what I was thinking, there have been plenty of Labour MP's in the media fighting the remain case. If he was really that arsed im sure Boris, Farage or Gove would happily debate him on tele seems Cameron hasn't got the bollocks to 1on1 with any of them.

[Stu Monty]

Would Farage bother turning up to a debate?

 

I mean, he gets paid to be an MEP and actually, democratically impact on the EU and can't be arsed to turn up and do what he gets paid for so I was just wondering.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Treasury Select Committee calls both campaigns cunts for talking shite.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36397732

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

He hasn't. It's just that the media are more interested in what is really a battle for the Tory leadership.

Is the correct answer.

 

Corbyn is the only one making the progressive arguments for the EU - but, obviously, that's not as newsworthy as Etonian twats squabbling.