Do you agree with this statement?

[Guest PurpleNose]

Also, Man City have just bought Adam Johnson for £7M. Personally I don't rate him, but if he turns into a top class player will it be a case that we can't compete with Man City because of transfer funds or will it be that they judged it well?

 

I've seen people increasingly claim that we can't compete with the Mancs when they've bought players like Evra and Vidic, despite the fact that they only cost around £5M.

 

I think i've made my point now in all fairness...

 

Do you think we could have bid £7m for Johnson?

 

We've just finished a transfer window where our big signing cost £1.5m.

[Hermes]

Do you think we could have bid £7m for Johnson?

 

We've just finished a transfer window where our big signing cost £1.5m.

 

You're missing his point, £7m is not a big fee. We have no money in January because Rafa chose to blow it all in the summer on a right back and an injured midfielder that even Rafa won't play when he is fit.

[stringvest]

Why would you blame Sky Sports?

 

They think we should win the league every season.

 

They don't. They think Chelsea should win it, or Man U, and next year, Man City. They think Ferguson's the best manager ever, they think Wenger is cerebral and is the king of the beautiful game, they think whoever manages Chelsea must just be wonderful, but slightly redundant as the team largely manages itself, and they think Rafa is a bit of a div who is by turns slightly mad, partial to ill-conceived ranting and a plodding, uninspired, control freak who stultifies the natural ebullience of our best players.

 

That's what Sky think.

[Guest PurpleNose]

Yo're missing his point, £7m is not a big fee.

 

You're missing the point. We don't have £7m to spend.

[Brownie]

Do you think we could have bid £7m for Johnson?

 

We've just finished a transfer window where our big signing cost £1.5m.

 

I'm not talking about now. I agree that the current situation is unacceptable and that Rafa should be receiving more backing (although perversely agree that we shouldn't give him money if it isn't there...)

 

I'm talking about when people say that you can't criticise him for signing someone for £7M because it isn't enough to sign a good player.

[Hermes]

You're missing the point. We don't have £7m to spend.

 

See my edit in post above. He had the money, he squandered it yet again like he has done in previous transfer windows when his major signings failed.

[Guest PurpleNose]

They don't. They think Chelsea should win it, or Man U, and next year, Man City. They think Ferguson's the best manager ever, they think Wenger is cerebral and is the king of the beautiful game, they think whoever manages Chelsea must just be wonderful, but slightly redundant as the team largely manages itself, and they think Rafa is a bit of a div who is by turns slightly mad, partial to ill-conceived ranting and a plodding, uninspired, control freak who stultifies the natural ebullience of our best players.

 

That's what Sky think.

 

At the start of every season they say "this is Liverpool's year" and then tell everyone its what every Liverpool fan thinks as well.

 

They think Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Arsenal and City should all win the league. The other 15 teams should get Europa league places. But whatever 'arry does is fucking brilliant. A team wins two in a row they're the new favourites for the title. A team loses two in a row and they're in crisis.

 

One massive hyped up slobber of mongery.

[Guest PurpleNose]

I'm not talking about now. I agree that the current situation is unacceptable and that Rafa should be receiving more backing (although perversely agree that we shouldn't give him money if it isn't there...)

 

I'm talking about when people say that you can't criticise him for signing someone for £7M because it isn't enough to sign a good player.

 

£7m is clearly enough money to sign a good player. Rafa has signed a few himself for around, or lower than, that fee that are either fucking brilliant in the case of Reina, or at least decent squad players in the case of Agger, Benayoun, and Arbeloa.

 

But that was in the past. Now we're a selling club. Making a profit in the transfer market to pay for debts.

[Brownie]

£7m is clearly enough money to sign a good player. Rafa has signed a few himself for around, or lower than, that fee that are either fucking brilliant in the case of Reina, or at least decent squad players in the case of Agger, Benayoun, and Arbeloa.

 

But that was in the past. Now we're a selling club. Making a profit in the transfer market to pay for debts.

 

Agreed. That doesn't mean, right here, right now that we have a poor team though.

[coachpotato]

We'll start next season in a better financial position than manU. I think they are worse off than we are on that score.

With no injuries, our starting 11 can be equal to anyone "on the day".

Man City will have more money, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee them anything, it gives them a probable advantage.

Arsenal have been underachieving for the last 3 seasons and show no major signs of changing that.

Spurs and Villa could be surprises, depending on how well they stay the course with their squads.

Stadium wise we will be 5th definitely.

All the other possible criteria can change between now and the new seasons start.

I'd like to think we've gone about as low as we can and that we'll be much better next season.

[Guest PurpleNose]

Agreed. That doesn't mean, right here, right now that we have a poor team though.

 

I think we have a very good first team. Possibly the second best in the league after Chelsea. But our squad really is thin in certain areas (the fault of which is both the owner's, and the manager's).

 

The problem is that its unlikely to get any better, regardless of who the manager is. A new manager would have to do better in each transfer window for us to just stand still as a club. As the financial situation seems to be worse in each transfer window.

 

What do you think will happen in the summer?

 

I can see Mascherano leaving, along with a few other squad players. We'll make about £20m profit for the yanks. A tiny bit of debt will be reduced. The squad will be even worse.

 

I don't actually know if I want Rafa to leave or not. Don't know if we can attract a better manager. Don't know if changing the manager will change anything. I do however detest the football we're playing.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

It is.

 

It was good enough last season and its good enough this.

 

Its all about motivation and the ability to get the best out of the squad.

 

Granted injuries have hurt us a lot this season but the team fully fit is more than good enough.

 

How many games have we had a fully fit squad to choose from this season? How many consecutive games have we been able to pick from a fully fit squad this season?

How many games have we been able to select the following (what i would class as my preffered choice first team) due to injury or suspension?? Reina, Johnson, Carragher, Agger/Skrtel, Insua, Kuyt, Mascherano, Lucas/Aquilani, Riera/Benayoun, Gerrard, Torres.

 

How many games has there been three or more of these players out of contention???

 

This team has not had a chance to put to gether any kind of run of form this season, as the matches where the first team from the above players has been able to start would be about 4 -5 tops I reckon. granted the salford shitehawks have also had injuries, but we've missed the top 2 for fuck knows how many games, and the defence has been pretty much fucking injured from day 1 in 1 position or another - so the defence is in disarray with more permutations tested than one of bob's footy bets, the forward line has been without 2 of the best attacking assets in the league for large parts of the season, and in midfield we have lucas trying to fill alonso's boots, with the boss eyed general trying to get pre season fitness in the middle of fucking winter.

 

It's an absolute cunt of a season, and where we had a bit of luck last season with last minute goals - as all top teams do, this year we've had all the luck of a rabbi in dachau circa 1941.

 

When we have had the team fully fit for a run of games, it will be time to qualify the statement in bold, right now we're treading water.

[Stu Monty]

My point is that the managers ability is far more important than how much cash he's given to spend.

 

The number of people on here who seem to think we can only finish in the same position as our budget rank is amazing.

 

This isn't about where you can finish. People can finish second from fifth on the grid, it's just an acceptance that it's a harder task than doing it from first on the grid.

 

And just to clarify, I called you a retard in a neg, not a PM. The reason being that I'm not going to waste my time discussing why QPR aren't going to win a divison they aren't in this year, and especially not with someone who has a track record of moving the goalposts or dissapearing when it looks like they might be losing a debate.

 

Also, Man City have just bought Adam Johnson for £7M. Personally I don't rate him, but if he turns into a top class player will it be a case that we can't compete with Man City because of transfer funds or will it be that they judged it well?

 

I've seen people increasingly claim that we can't compete with the Mancs when they've bought players like Evra and Vidic, despite the fact that they only cost around £5M.

 

I think i've made my point now in all fairness...

 

I think you have made your point, and it's not a very different one to the one Paul was espousing earlier. I'd accept that it is possible to do things that way on a budget but surely you'd have to accept that buying high quality for lower proces is a much tougher task than buying them for high prices. Thus making the task of winning/challenging for the league from a poorer position that much more difficult for whoever our manager is.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Has to be a yes. But football is a funny old game. We could have rich owners of our own before the lights turn green in August. Then again we could be left with the yanks and Benitez still in charge and be starting lower than 5th.

[redrosetints]

I don't want to speak for Walton Red here, but i'm going to anyway! I reckon what he's getting at, is the fact that we have a set of players capable of doing great things right now. Not in three years, when consistently spending fuck all would kill us, right now.

 

Your expectations are formed by the quality you have available.

 

Brownie, I dont want to speak for Stu, but I will :whistle:

 

Surely the point here is that we are already seeing the limitations on the pitch, due to our financial plight ? We have a fantastic first 11, when everyone is fit, as we have put all our eggs in one basket, the quality over quantity argument. Our problem and that of Spurs and Villa, is that to sustain challenges in europe, in the league, year in year out, you need more than 11 great players and when you suffer from lots of injuries, then you will suffer as a result as we have.

 

Clubs dont pay more for players for the sake of it, those who are sold at a higher value are done so becuase they have proven to be better than their peers. If you played a team of £20m signings against a team of £10m signings you;'d expect the more expensive team to win more often. Considering United have 3 £30m players and 5 or 6 in the 18m bracket and in the past have had the likes of Veron and Van Horsetleboy, is it any wonder they have achieved so much ?

 

Yes,they play an exciting, well exectued brand of football, but thats due to the quality of the players they have at their disposal. Form, confidence, understanding etc all have their part to play, but unless we have an injury free season next year, I expect more of the same Im afraid, only with Citeh pulling ahead of us more.

 

Is Mancini a better manager than Rafa ? Didnt look like it in the CL a few years back, we demolished them in Milan, when the money was even. Now, with Citeh having more cash, who do you think will be more sucesfull ?

 

We can still win the league, but it going to take one hell of an effort, the moons all alligning prperly, us going downhill with teh wind behind us and to make it happen every season is going to be almost impossible. Having money makes it easier to achieve and more liekly to achieve it consistently.

[Catch22]

Also, Man City have just bought Adam Johnson for £7M. Personally I don't rate him, but if he turns into a top class player will it be a case that we can't compete with Man City because of transfer funds or will it be that they judged it well?

 

I've seen people increasingly claim that we can't compete with the Mancs when they've bought players like Evra and Vidic, despite the fact that they only cost around £5M.

 

I think i've made my point now in all fairness...

 

We wanted Evra & Vidic & matched their club's valuation but they joined the Mancs because they offered them more cash.

(Just as we did to the BS with Momo)

 

Players determine football results & the more you have to pay them, the better players you get.

[redrosetints]

You're missing his point, £7m is not a big fee. We have no money in January because Rafa chose to blow it all in the summer on a right back and an injured midfielder that even Rafa won't play when he is fit.

 

Didnt he buy an RB and a Midfielder because an RB and Midfielder left ?

 

Who should we have replaced Arbeloa and Alonso with ? just carry on as we were so we can spend 30m in January ?

 

Is there any guarantee that come January he'd still have the money to spend ? LIke the Robbie Keane money, where did that go ? Or for that matter, where did th e money go from Voronin, Dossena, Arbeloa, Leto, Alonso and others leaving ? Cos Aquilani and Johnson didnt cost as much as those we sold.

[Catch22]

My point is that the managers ability is far more important than how much cash he's given to spend.

 

The number of people on here who seem to think we can only finish in the same position as our budget rank is amazing.

 

Noone is saying you finish in the exact same spot- the correlation is 90% not 100%.

You can move around it due to management,luck,fans,etc but you are still grounded by the statistical tendency.

 

A thin,fit, non-smoker can die younger than a fat,lazy,smoker but on average he won't.

 

In general, the amount you pay your players determines 90% of your finishing position which leaves 10% or less for the manager so the idea that the manager is more important is statistically not true.

 

The best present specific example is Avram Grant.

2 years ago he had the best points/game ratio in the PL in that season, better than GinSoak,Jose,Rafa or Wenger, none of whom are worse managers than him.

Now, exactly the same manager, he has the worst ratio of any club, yet he is almost certainly a better manager right now than Zola for instance.

In the 1st instance he had the highest paid set of players, in the 2nd quite probably the lowest & there was very little he could do to fuck up the former or improve the latter.

[t1971]

You're missing his point, £7m is not a big fee. We have no money in January because Rafa chose to blow it all in the summer on a right back and an injured midfielder that even Rafa won't play when he is fit.

 

We had a negative spend in the summer. We didnt actually spend anything. A club as big as this should be able to spend £17m on a full back. Thats not the problem.

[redrosetints]

Also, Man City have just bought Adam Johnson for £7M. Personally I don't rate him, but if he turns into a top class player will it be a case that we can't compete with Man City because of transfer funds or will it be that they judged it well?

 

I've seen people increasingly claim that we can't compete with the Mancs when they've bought players like Evra and Vidic, despite the fact that they only cost around £5M.

 

I think i've made my point now in all fairness...

 

We had dals ready to sign both Evra and Vidic, but were gazumped for a higher fee and wages by United. Same with Ronaldo in 04 and Silvestre in 99.

 

So your proving that we can't compete with the Mancs as every time a decent player in the cheaper price bracket comes along, United can pay that little bit more.

 

That point also fails to address the fact we have Reina, Insua, Skrtel, Agger, Kyriakos, Lucas, Reira, Benayoun, Ngog and Degen already in the team who cost nothing or around that 5m mark.

 

It also fails to take into account that when the going gets tough its not an Evra or Vidic that makes their mark for united, in last years run in it was Rooney, Berbatov, Ferdinand, Carrick, Ronaldo, Nani and previously Van Horse Face that made the difference.

[Tom R]

My point is that the managers ability is far more important than how much cash he's given to spend.

 

The number of people on here who seem to think we can only finish in the same position as our budget rank is amazing.

 

Hermes, that's bollocks mate.

 

Everyone knows that a manager only influences about 5% of a team's performance.

 

Catch has already been very clear on this matter.

 

Now please, let that be an end to your nonsense

[Hermes]

Noone is saying you finish in the exact same spot- the correlation is 90% not 100%.

 

I've asked you several times to show us one end of season league table that proves your theory.

 

I'm still waiting.

[Hermes]

We had a negative spend in the summer. We didnt actually spend anything. A club as big as this should be able to spend £17m on a full back. Thats not the problem.

 

Johnson and Aquilani were free?

[Tom R]

They don't. They think Chelsea should win it, or Man U, and next year, Man City. They think Ferguson's the best manager ever, they think Wenger is cerebral and is the king of the beautiful game, they think whoever manages Chelsea must just be wonderful, but slightly redundant as the team largely manages itself, and they think Rafa is a bit of a div who is by turns slightly mad, partial to ill-conceived ranting and a plodding, uninspired, control freak who stultifies the natural ebullience of our best players.

 

That's what Sky think.

 

There's only really the bit about Ferguson being the best ever that you can argue too much with, isn't there!

 

Scary.

[Whelan]

Managers make bad signings, and will continue to make bad signings I suppose a 20 million pound player will have less bad days, or have less significant bad days than one who cost 10 million. But in all fairness the money argument is on more solid ground when you are pointing out how much harder it makes it to compete at the highest level, quality or quanity becomes less of an argument the more money you have.

 

But instead of buying Keane and Riera (whom I like) for 25 million we could have bought Silva, instead of Pennant and Kuyt we could have bought Alves and kept Cisse, I have no problem with the actual decision that Rafa has made, but equally had he made another decision then we may have been better off. But instead of Torres he could have bought Eto, instead of Reina he could have bought Green.

 

The facts are that for the last three transfer windows we have had a negative outlay! Not just in terms of money but in actual bodies, two out and one in will eventually catch up with you. Those who say Rafa has spent enough money need to realise that those days are almost two seasons ago, since then we have been spending less and less, not investing less and less actually spending less. This year Mascherano, Babel, Riera and Benny will probably go raising, roughly 60 million! Lets see how that is spent.