VAR Thoughts?

[3 Stacks 2,230]

Number one thing with VAR I find funny is people calling it technology. It's literally people looking at a tv in a room. Which brings me to the next point, the problem with it, is still human stupidity and the absurdity of a lot of these rules we have in football.

 

Surely, they can figure out a way of making better use of refs looking at the game and its incidents in a separate room, but somehow they can't. The havoc that this has caused is honestly mind boggling and it's a bad look for all involved. This could be a really simple tool and somehow it's not. Go figure. 

[TheHowieLama 10,319]

That's what you get when you try to start a European Super League.

[dockers_strike 1,669]

Using feet or player's boots wont make a difference. They'll still go to the millmeter, more so if they have HD cameras shooting 400 fps.

 

The offside law is based on the human eye's ability to spot when the ball is kicked and the players positioning. VAR has now made that decernable to virtually a hair's width. At the moment, the cameras used just dont give that finess.

 

Collina, head of FIFA reffing says 'offside is offside. If we're going to use technology and VAR in particular to decide it, the game needs a new definition of what offside is.

 

Im not keen on that idea and think the game should use clear and obvious daylight between player's bodies. Player's bodies are different shapes and sizes and that's where the problems for technology comes in. Goal line technology is different and generally works because all footballs are the same shape and size as are the goals.

 

 

[Remmie 5,283]

Why would refs want to bin off VAR, it'd mean half of them lose their jobs? 

[dockers_strike 1,669]

1 hour ago, aws said:

Chimp is right, There's daylight between Mane's sleeve and the yellow line but somehow the dotted line joins his sleeve to the far line.  May as well draw a dotted line to show Hendo is offside as well. 

They decided the middle of Sadio's torso was in front of the middle of the last everton player's torso. They were using cross hairs at the time on tv. Once they decided on the centre of Sadio's torso, the lines on the elbow were just used as the PL's excuse to disallow the goal.

[Tj hooker 1,726]

41 minutes ago, Trumo said:

I still don't think the technology is the problem. The problem lies with the way it's being used, and especially the numpties in charge of implimenting it. There are tweaks that can be made.

 

I've said it before, but the 'clear and obvious' aspect of refereeing errors must be ditched. If an error, obvious or not, had a material effect on the game (a goal, a foul, an injury, cheating...), it must be looked at and corrected. The material effect should be the important thing.

 

Simplify the offside line by basing it on the feet of the players. Who cares if other parts of the body can be used to score a goal. The position of a player's feet should be the deciding factor on close calls. If it needs infinitesimal analysis, then the benefit should go to the attacking player rather than looking for millimetres.

 

The referee MUST go over to the VAR screen to review an incident. He can still confer with the other officials while doing so, and it gives the referee a chance to see something they might have missed or originally viewed differently. They should know by now that there's often a significant difference between what the VAR official is saying over the mic, and what the screen shows. The equipment is there pitchside. USE IT!

 

Lots of people are saying to jib off VAR. I'm starting to come around to the idea that Riley and his cronies are deliberately making a messing of things so this ends up happening. Then they can go back to their old set-up of making things up as they go along without the added layer of 'explanation' and the rigmarole of using technology. Returning to the old way would see even more 'Riley and Webb at Old Trafford' refereeing. Be careful what you wish for.

Excellent post and some very good recommendations which obviously won't be picked up by the officials 

[Barrington Womble 8,226]

1 hour ago, Trumo said:

I still don't think the technology is the problem. The problem lies with the way it's being used, and especially the numpties in charge of implimenting it. There are tweaks that can be made.

 

I've said it before, but the 'clear and obvious' aspect of refereeing errors must be ditched. If an error, obvious or not, had a material effect on the game (a goal, a foul, an injury, cheating...), it must be looked at and corrected. The material effect should be the important thing.

 

Simplify the offside line by basing it on the feet of the players. Who cares if other parts of the body can be used to score a goal. The position of a player's feet should be the deciding factor on close calls. If it needs infinitesimal analysis, then the benefit should go to the attacking player rather than looking for millimetres.

 

The referee MUST go over to the VAR screen to review an incident. He can still confer with the other officials while doing so, and it gives the referee a chance to see something they might have missed or originally viewed differently. They should know by now that there's often a significant difference between what the VAR official is saying over the mic, and what the screen shows. The equipment is there pitchside. USE IT!

 

Lots of people are saying to jib off VAR. I'm starting to come around to the idea that Riley and his cronies are deliberately making a messing of things so this ends up happening. Then they can go back to their old set-up of making things up as they go along without the added layer of 'explanation' and the rigmarole of using technology. Returning to the old way would see even more 'Riley and Webb at Old Trafford' refereeing. Be careful what you wish for.

VAR is shit everywhere though, it's not just this country people are unhappy with it. I come back to my point in the previous post. What are we trying to achieve using VAR? That statement in itself should drive the direction of VAR. We can talk about doing offsides differently, or them using the screen more Dean could have used it yesterday, but didn't. So do you really think if they were forced to use the screen they'd see things differently? I don't think they would, because it's all subjective and done to an agenda of whatever the fuck it is the referees are supposed to be seeing round with this year. 

 

I think we use VAR because they want more TV discussion points in football. They want it to be shit, because they're trying to use it to trigger discussion around the product of football, especially on social media. All publicity is good publicity. They're not arsed about the people who are massively emotionally invested in the game, they've got us. They want to trigger a response and get people who are involved who it's just a passing interest to today. I think VAR is great for that audience - they've got no patience in 90 mins of football but will spend all week tweeting about it sending out daft video clips. 

[joe_fishfish 330]

38 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

VAR is shit everywhere though, it's not just this country people are unhappy with it. I come back to my point in the previous post. What are we trying to achieve using VAR? That statement in itself should drive the direction of VAR. We can talk about doing offsides differently, or them using the screen more Dean could have used it yesterday, but didn't. So do you really think if they were forced to use the screen they'd see things differently? I don't think they would, because it's all subjective and done to an agenda of whatever the fuck it is the referees are supposed to be seeing round with this year. 

 

I think we use VAR because they want more TV discussion points in football. They want it to be shit, because they're trying to use it to trigger discussion around the product of football, especially on social media. All publicity is good publicity. They're not arsed about the people who are massively emotionally invested in the game, they've got us. They want to trigger a response and get people who are involved who it's just a passing interest to today. I think VAR is great for that audience - they've got no patience in 90 mins of football but will spend all week tweeting about it sending out daft video clips. 

I wouldn't credit them with that much foresight. I think if you asked Mike Riley the question about what they're trying to achieve with VAR he wouldn't have a proper answer for you. I reckon they've brought it in because we all saw it working pretty well at the World Cup in 2018, and they were afraid they'd look like the incompetent backwards fuck ups they are if they didn't bring it in here too.

 

In my view VAR should be used to cut down on the massive fucking howlers we see every game, and that's it. I used to think a challenge system would make sense but you just know the VAR moron would uphold the original decision every time with the most spurious of reasoning.

[Barrington Womble 8,226]

7 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

I wouldn't credit them with that much foresight. I think if you asked Mike Riley the question about what they're trying to achieve with VAR he wouldn't have a proper answer for you. I reckon they've brought it in because we all saw it working pretty well at the World Cup in 2018, and they were afraid they'd look like the incompetent backwards fuck ups they are if they didn't bring it in here too.

 

In my view VAR should be used to cut down on the massive fucking howlers we see every game, and that's it. I used to think a challenge system would make sense but you just know the VAR moron would uphold the original decision every time with the most spurious of reasoning.

I'm not saying Mike Riley has an agenda, it's a FIFA agenda and VAR is being ridiculed around the world, not just here. 

 

There's definitely an issue with our refs backing each other up, to the point it's verging on ridiculous now. That manc one yesterday was fucking mental. 

 

If it was my choice I would fuck it all off aside from goal line technology. But I think the horse has bolted now, I don't think we'll be going back. 

[m0e 1,301]

If it needs lines to figure out the offside, then just go with what the linesman decided in the first place, and stop wasting all of our lives for fuck's sake.

 

It's not complicated.

[chrisbonnie 789]

1 hour ago, m0e said:

If it needs lines to figure out the offside, then just go with what the linesman decided in the first place, and stop wasting all of our lives for fuck's sake.

 

It's not complicated.

That's a good idea, but stop using common sense ffs, it's football, the most complicated sport in the world............ 

[Scooby Dudek 1,476]

5 minutes ago, chrisbonnie said:

That's a good idea, but stop using common sense ffs, it's football, the most complicated sport in the world............ 

Football is a simple game, complicated by idiots.

[chrisbonnie 789]

1 hour ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Football is a simple game, complicated by idiots.

this is the thing isnt it. Quite frankly the simplest game ever concieved, yet these morons complicate it so much you'd swear its nuclear physics. Its 22 men chasing an inflatable ball ffs 

[dave u 5,709]

Danny Murphy summed it up the other day when he said that VAR has taken away the one thing that has always been the most special aspect of football. Celebrating a goal. It's been ruined. Now you either celebrate and run the risk of it being cut short, or you half arse it and wait for them to tell you it's a goal, by which point the moment is gone.

 

It's just shit. I hate it. I've hated it since day one and if anything I hate it even more now. I hated it in the World Cup but the moment when I knew I could never accept it was when West Brom tonked us in the FA Cup and they couldn't celebrate two of their goals because they were worried they were going to be disallowed.

 

Even though it didn't affect us specifically, seeing what happened with West Brom's players and fans was enough for me. That could just as easily have been us or anyone else.

 

I'd rather go back to how it was with shit refs making mistakes on the field rather than shit refs fucking up even after watching a video. You can excuse the first, to a degree. Fucking up when you have access to all the replay angles you need is completely unacceptable.

 

And the level of precision they've had to bring in for offsides just because they have the technology to do it has made a mockery of it.

 

And then there's the scrutiny on whether a goalkeeper has strayed a cm off his line in trying to save a penalty. That's shit too.

 

It's fucking hard enough saving penalties and if a keeper gains the tiniest of advantages by stepping off his line a touch then good luck to him.

 

All these pricks in suits who've never played the game but are making all these shit rules are completely sucking the enjoyment out of it for everyone.

[Barrington Womble 8,226]

1 minute ago, dave u said:

And the level of precision they've had to bring in for offsides just because they have the technology to do it has made a mockery of it.

actually they don't have the technology to do it, but they're doing it anyway - which for me undermines the whole process more than anything. 

[dockers_strike 1,669]

5 minutes ago, dave u said:

Danny Murphy summed it up the other day when he said that VAR has taken away the one thing that has always been the most special aspect of football. Celebrating a goal. It's been ruined. Now you either celebrate and run the risk of it being cut short, or you half arse it and wait for them to tell you it's a goal, by which point the moment is gone.

 

It's just shit. I hate it. I've hated it since day one and if anything I hate it even more now. I hated it in the World Cup but the moment when I knew I could never accept it was when West Brom tonked us in the FA Cup and they couldn't celebrate two of their goals because they were worried they were going to be disallowed.

 

Even though it didn't affect us specifically, seeing what happened with West Brom's players and fans was enough for me. That could just as easily have been us or anyone else.

 

I'd rather go back to how it was with shit refs making mistakes on the field rather than shit refs fucking up even after watching a video. You can excuse the first, to a degree. Fucking up when you have access to all the replay angles you need is completely unacceptable.

 

And the level of precision they've had to bring in for offsides just because they have the technology to do it has made a mockery of it.

 

And then there's the scrutiny on whether a goalkeeper has strayed a cm off his line in trying to save a penalty. That's shit too.

 

It's fucking hard enough saving penalties and if a keeper gains the tiniest of advantages by stepping off his line a touch then good luck to him.

 

All these pricks in suits who've never played the game but are making all these shit rules are completely sucking the enjoyment out of it for everyone.

Hard to disagree with any of that Dave. I was in favour of VAR but even I admit they've made a clusterfuck with it.

 

I think the VAR scrutiny of every goal, almost looking for a reason to rule it out, is one of the major problems.

 

VAR was supposed to be used to correct obvious errors like the wrong team being given a throw in or where a player had used a hand to gain an advantage. Instead, it's used to review goals with the objective of ruling them out. The PL and PGMOL will say that's not the case but it patently is when they are deciding offside on millimeters.

 

And then you get incidents like pickford's challenge and they make excuse after excuse why they didnt dothis or that then come out days later and say yes, he should have been off. What is the fucking point of it because Im fucked if I know now?

 

 

[Barnesey 273]

I’ve given my opinion on VAR previously. I just wanted to add I didn’t celebrate any occasion on which we put the ball into the net on satdee. Neither did the two guys I was watching with. 
 

we were all relieved when the two goals were awarded but, by that time, the moment had gone. 
 

cant see how this improves the game as a spectacle 

[dave u 5,709]

30 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

actually they don't have the technology to do it, but they're doing it anyway - which for me undermines the whole process more than anything. 

 

They do, to a degree, they just don't have the technology to be as precise as they're making it out to be. 

 

The problem is they seem to have just abandoned the possibility that sometimes you can be level. They always want to make it show one way or the other, and often it comes down to whatever the VAR fella wants it to be. 

[dave u 5,709]

4 minutes ago, Barnesey said:

I’ve given my opinion on VAR previously. I just wanted to add I didn’t celebrate any occasion on which we put the ball into the net on satdee. Neither did the two guys I was watching with. 
 

we were all relieved when the two goals were awarded but, by that time, the moment had gone. 
 

cant see how this improves the game as a spectacle 

 

I celebrated Jota's because I knew there was defo no offside there. I didn't celebrate Bobby's as I didn't know for sure.

 

I also celebrated Mo's disallowed one becuse I wasn't looking at the laptop when the ball was played to him so I had no idea he was offside.

[Barrington Womble 8,226]

1 hour ago, dave u said:

 

They do, to a degree, they just don't have the technology to be as precise as they're making it out to be. 

 

The problem is they seem to have just abandoned the possibility that sometimes you can be level. They always want to make it show one way or the other, and often it comes down to whatever the VAR fella wants it to be. 

But this is my point. The chances of it being level when you make decisions to millimetres are almost zero. There should be virtually no offsides seen as level, because they won't be level. But we don't have the technology to deem if it's within millimeters. We don't even have the technology to show the moment the ball left the foot. They have software that even from the inaccurate frame chosen then has quite a margin of error depending on the angle of the camera. So they absolutely do not have the technology to do offside as implemented today. If you're saying they can freeze a frame and then let a computer make a best guess, fair enough they can, but then what's the point of that? The software makers themselves say it can't possibly be accurate like the cricket and the goal line as they don't have control of the camera location and prior knowledge to where the decision will be made. It's complete fucking nonsense. If they were to calculate a maximum margin of error and then go with the position plus the margin, then fair enough i could accept that and if it's a millimetre offside even accounting for the VAR and his potential poor positioning of the mark, then with a built in margin of whatever, it doesn't seem unjust.

 

Bottom line to me is level is effectively gone if the measurement is a frozen frame and we're happy to go to millimeters - level is a concept from a linesman needing to simultaneously in real time with the naked eye watch the ball being struck and if the forward has broken the line. But we don't have the technology to measure to the level of accuracy required for what they're delivering today - but I can see there could be a halfway house between watching a real time situation where a person is expected to look at 2 places at once and the utter shite we have today. 

[aws 6,409]

Maybe they should just adopt the clear and obvious test for offside. If it's clear and obvious at first sight of the computer lines  then it's offside. If not, advantage the attacker. 

[No2 714]

Salah's goal on Saturday is probably only 6 or 7 inches offside but you can see it with one viewing.  If you need the science to decide it then award the goal regardless of whether the lino gave it on or off. Barrington Womble has just made a good point that they have removed level from the laws (well they haven't but they may as well have). The odds of being level now must be 1 in a million so they have made it harder to score proper goals but made it easier to score penalties by awarding them every 2 minutes and at the same time making it harder for the keeper to actually save them.

[m0e 1,301]

1 hour ago, aws said:

Maybe they should just adopt the clear and obvious test for offside. If it's clear and obvious at first sight of the computer lines  then it's offside. If not, advantage the attacker. 

If it needs lines being drawn then it should go to the linesman's initial call. How much easier does that become?

 

In the 90s the lino was instructed to go with the attacking side if he wasn't sure.

 

Why the fuck have they changed that philosophy?!

 

Lines needed or Linos unsure should lead to benefit of doubt given to the attacking side.

 

End of discussion.

[TheHowieLama 10,319]

With the way the rules and VAR are now why even have linesman?

[Scooby Dudek 1,476]

I think they should just draw one line on the last defender, then go with clear and obvious for on/off side. 

 

Mane last week, it is obviously onside with only the defenders line but they then somehow manage to make it off side. One straight line and it is easy to see .