Over the top

[catinhat]

While I share the disappointment of yesterday’s result, and the feelings of deja vu, I think the reaction of most fans is way over the top.

 

I agree that Houllier’s tactics are baffling more often than not. I agree that H*skey shouldn’t be playing (and certainly not in midfield). I also agree that when we are leading, we need to go for the jugular as Arsenal or Man U would.

 

However, I think that we were genuinely unlucky in yesterday’s game. Odd as the tactics were, we did have enough chances to win the game – it wasn’t like we were just sitting back. It’s unfortunate that 2 of them fell to our No 8, it’s unfortunate that Gerrard’s run into the box was stopped by the defender taking out Gerrard before getting a touch on the ball, and it’s unfortunate that when Gerrard was fouled (clearly in the box as TV replays showed), the ref gave the free kick just outside the box. Gerrard's break-away shot missing the post by inches was another bit of bad luck.

 

Portsmouth didn’t ever look like scoring, and there was even a slice of luck fortheir goal, coming via a random direction flick on from Henchoz (or was it Hyypia?).

 

I watched the game on TV, and I know this is not the same as being at the game, but I did notice some very nice passages of passing, and some pass and move football that we tend to see very rarely. The chants of Attack, Attack, Attack were somewhat odd, as I thought we were attacking for most of the game. It was not like so many games in the past where we score and then barely have a shot on goal afterwards. Just as we have been lucky in the past to hold on to narrow victories, yesterday we were unlucky not to score more and put the game out of reach. I don’t think that luck evens itself out over a season - why should it? There are simply periods of good luck and bad luck. In our double season we had a healthy sprinkling of luck. This season (and not to excuse our position and some terrible football) I think we have suffered some very bad luck. I don’t think Houllier should harp on about luck - such talk doesn’t suit a manager, but I’m happy to express my view and if you were to analyse injuries, goals scored, conceded, penalties given and turned down, I think it would show that we’ve had a pretty bad run of luck this season. It’s absurd to blame too much on luck (although check the Manc treble year if you really want to see how lucky a team can be), but if you look at yesterday's game in isolation, we were unlucky, end of story.

 

Just a quick note about Carra – by some miracle it seems like his healed leg is better than the pre-broken one. I’m sure he’s quicker than he was and he must have been doing lots of shooting practice. Don’t want to curse him, but surely it’s only a matter of time before he scores (goal number 3 I believe?).

[Guest Dancing Dave]

These daft twats have made their part-time minds up, and Houllier must go. It matters not that had their Manc counterparts had their way, Demento would have been sacked in 89. Short-termers, who don't know what *support* means, to the point where they stay at home for important FA cup ties. As for Emile Heskey, his efforts were worthy of anyone, and Hyslop's saves were top draw. He can be lazy, yeh, he was at times yesterday, and he needs to leave Liverpool now because no matter what he does, it won't be appreciated. Kewell has done nothing since last year (YEOVIL) but nobody says jack shit about him. YMO has been poor in a few games (injured no doubt) but they leave him alone, at least for now.

 

Carra MUST have been told to get forward more, and why not, he was a midfielder in the early days, he can pass, and one day soon he'll score.

 

btw...have you seen some of the names they want as our new manager?? Keegan, Toshack......O'Neil........ffs!!

[Guest Con]

Good post mate and agree with some of it.

I dont think anyone would disgaree that we should have won the game yesterday. We did play some decent stuff at times and to an extent we were unlucky.

 

However what really annoys me is that this is PORTSMOUTH we are talking about at Anfield! No disrespect to them but we should be thumping 3 or 4 past these kind of teams. Not to mention they were without their 3 best players in Sherringham, Paddy B and Stone.

 

We should be challenging for titles and the Champions Leage but we are not. And we are losing touch with the elite more and more each week.

 

Did u watch Arsenal on sunday? Even without Hnery they were a different gravy. Miles ahead of us in all areas.

 

Over reaction to yesterday? Perhaps but make no mistake about it GH has lost the fans and is not too far from losing his job. This has been going on for 2 years now and it has to stop. :no

 

I have been pro GH all the way thru up until the last month. We lose at spurs, draw with wolves, draw with the blueshite, draw with bolton and narrowly beat a man city team which hasnt won in the lague since NOv.

 

This is what we have become and this is where we will stay unless the board react.

 

Sorry to say but he has to go. :dunno:

[catinhat]

I did watch the Arsenal game and as ever they were pretty damn good. What ever they work on in training it obviously translates onto the pitch. When ever I watch Arsenal, I am amazed by quite how much passing and movement they have in their team - they always have a few players running, opening space up, making themselves available for a pass etc. We obviously have players that can do the same, so sometimes I wonder whether GH's defensive priorities means he instructs our players not to be too fluent so that we're not caught out of posion if we lose possession.

 

When Dave U started posting articles about why Houllier should go (and invited people to write pieces supporting GH) I wanted to write one in support, but I just didn't quite have the conviction. I'm sitting on the fence at the moment (ouch). So many conflicting thoughts. Manc fans wanted to sack Fergie and their evil board was right not to, but this doesn't necessarily mean that GH will likewise win us the title if we stick by him.

 

Basically, since coming back from his op, he's been a different person. He didn't talk half as much cr@p before he was ill, yet these days, so much of what he says makes me cringe - I sometimes have to avoid pre and post match interviews cos they make me so embarrassed.

 

Our tactics seem to confuse everyone, and I don't like the way we so often play to counter the 'strengths' of other teams (even if they are rubbish teams like Spurs, Wolves, Everton, Portsmout etc) rather than concentrating on our own strengths, which is what we used to do.

 

Stats can be used to manipulate arguments, but at the same time they do not lie - excluding the opening games of last season, we've just been terribly inconistent for nearly 2 years now, both in terms of results and performances. To see our team, with the players we have, play so much terrible football and be battling with the likes of Fulham and Charlton for Europe really hurts me, as I'm sure it hurts other fans.

 

At the same time, I don't know if I'd want GH replaced too hastily, simply because I don't know who is out there to replace him. I can not believe that some Liverpool fans seriously think that Toshack is the answer to our problems. He was a great player for us, but now he's just a pundit and part time bribe taking manager who gets fired all the time cos he can't get anything out of his teams. As for O'neil, nobody can really have any idea what he would be like managing a top club in a top league. Also, he talks as much cr@p as Houllier.

 

Oh the pain of supporting our team!...

[Guest Con]

About 2 months ago there were loads of anti GH threads popping up all over this place and i decided to stick up for the guy. I basically said that we have been unlucky with injuries to key players this year and that once everyone is fit we will be a different team.

 

I said that he has bought quite well since the disaster summer of 2002 and the style of play had become better. Give him the rest of the season and one more crack of the whip and then if nothing changes give him the boot.

 

Yeah i got slated by some, others agreed but by in large the majority of people in here want the man out.

I am now one of those people. I do want him out. I like the man and i appreciate what he has done but he cant take us any farther, in fact hes taking us backwards. Hes made some terrible decisions over the last 2 years and has come out with utter shite to explain poor results and poor performances. ;)

 

I have had enough. Watching the game yesterday it struck me. People were not surprised when Portsmouth scored. None of the usual jeers from the other fans. It was almost as if it was expected. Imagine that. At home to a shite team like Portsmouth. Then the usual rubbish from GH "feel sorry for the boys", unlucky etc..." and my personal fave "i am proud of my boys in terms of passion and commitment" what the fuck is that all about. I was ashamed!!! :sniff:

 

The only reason he is in the job right now is because there is a lack of quality, experienced and proven managers available at present.

 

Not convinced of O'Neill nor Toshack. At this stage i would go for someone like Aldo, McMahon or Molby. An ex red who knows the club and the fans.

Someone who knows the traditions of the club and knows what is required to turn the club around.

 

Come in Ged ur time is up. :no

[Nunavut Patrick]

Nobody says jack shite about Kewell. Read the match report, DD. Oh, sorry, forgot you don't like comics.

 

Kewell seems lost, but he made a lovely cross field pass to Gerrard in the first half, and that seemed to be it.

 

It is also nice to read posts (Con and catinhat) without name-calling. Agree with what both had to stay.

[fagus]

their seems to be a lot of talk about luck going on,you make your luck in this world,we did not fail to beat portsmouth due to bad luck, we failed to beat them because the side put out was not good enough,same as they were not good enough to beat them in the league game.before anybody says who would i have had in different the answer is nobody,their lies the problem the squad assembled by GH aint fucking good enough.when i hear people say next year will be different cos we will have Cisse i laugh, do people really think he is going to turn us into a team good enough to challenge for the league,look at the league table ,its not as if we are 6 points behind Arsenal.I dont know if oneill will manage liverpool , but people who moan about his record id just say this what was GH's record before he came to liverpool , not so clever.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Disagree, fagus. I think the side put out is good enough. World class striker, solid back four and two midfield generals. *8* shouldn't be on the park, Cheyrou was a non-entity after a run of form and Harry was off his game. Dudek has had some solid games, but is still a concern for dodginess. Put Milan in for 8, light a fire up Harry's arse and hope Kirky is healthy.

 

Kirkland

Finnan H H Carra

??? Gerrard Didi Kewell

Baros Owen

That's a good side, good enough to challenge. ???- Smicer, Murphy, ALT, Cheyrou- whoever wants it badly would get the spot.

[catinhat]

Fagus - Luck is a value judgement. I say Liverpool were unlucky not to win, you disagree and say luck had nothing to do with it. Ultimately there's no right or wrong, it's all just opinions. My opinion is that whereas the draw with Wolves, or loss at Spurs was not due to unlucky Liverpool, Yesterday's match was a genuine case of unlucky Liverpool.

 

In the 2001 FA cup final, ecstatic though I was that we won, I feel we were pretty lucky to win, having had few chances and been outplayed for most of the match.

[thechap]

Luck only comes into it up to a point, such as who the ball bounces to? or does it go in off the post? or do you get the right linesman decision? Other than things like that you have to make your own luck by CREATING CHANCES and then needing your player to hit the target hard enough. And that is the crux of it - we do not create enough. On Sunday the majority of the game was played in their half but there weren't a high number of goalbound shots that reflected that.

 

As for their keeper making some good saves, that is nothing to do with luck but just excellent goalkeeping. Beating the goalkeeper isn't lucky.

[Redexile]

Luck only comes into it up to a point, such as who the ball bounces to? or does it go in off the post? or do you get the right linesman decision? Other than things like that you have to make your own luck by CREATING CHANCES and then needing your player to hit the target hard enough. And that is the crux of it - we do not create enough. On Sunday the majority of the game was played in their half but there weren't a high number of goalbound shots that reflected that.

 

As for their keeper making some good saves, that is nothing to do with luck but just excellent goalkeeping. Beating the goalkeeper isn't lucky.

TC hafataagree with that. I watched the game live over here and could see the sucker punch coming from a mile off. A couple of other points.

 

• We played with 1 striker at home to shite.
  
• that 1 striker had one chance and scored , the rest of the chances were created by non strikers. I include H*******Y here since he played most of the game in the m/f.
  
• One of the sides problems is that the m/f sits very deep because we lack pace at the back thus the gap between the fwd ( fwds????) is too big and therefore our build up (with the exception of SG's runs) tend to be far too slow allowing the oppositionto get men behind the ball. This has been a problem for the last 2 seasons and yet has not been addressed.
  
• Yes P/mouth were lucky but our style and tactics helped . Must be because we only play top class sides week in week out!!!
  

These days watching the side I 've supported since I was kid just drives me nuts

[Guest Dancing Dave]

Disagree, fagus. I think the side put out is good enough. World class striker, solid back four and two midfield generals. *8* shouldn't be on the park, Cheyrou was a non-entity after a run of form and Harry was off his game. Dudek has had some solid games, but is still a concern for dodginess. Put Milan in for 8, light a fire up Harry's arse and hope Kirky is healthy.

 

Kirkland

Finnan H H Carra

??? Gerrard Didi Kewell

Baros Owen

That's a good side, good enough to challenge. ???- Smicer, Murphy, ALT, Cheyrou- whoever wants it badly would get the spot.

Cheyrou went off to a standing ovation. Not bad for a non-entity.

[DT]

Dancing Dave wrote:

 

"It matters not that had their Manc counterparts had their way, Demento would have been sacked in 89."

 

Using Ferguson as an example is a very poor way of defending Houllier imo. There is no guarantee that keeping Houllier - just because the mancs did it with Ferguson- that we are going to come good. Absolutely no guarantee.

 

Do you use this argument because you've run out? It seems that instead of defending Houllier you've just resorted to abusing everyone who is in disagreement with you (a lot of people btw). Ridiculing other people's suggestions, calling them part timers, when in reality you don't know:

 

a) how a new man would fare in the job

b) anything about your fellow TLW forumites

 

Why don't you sit back a bit and instead of parading your superior knowledge etc. try and listen. You might not agree, but at least show everyone else on here some respect.

 

It is fast becoming a characteristic of the Houllierites to abuse and apportion blame, and it doesn't really suit anyone associated with this club. Let's try and get this debate back on track and not resort to petty insults.

[Cath]

These daft twats have made their part-time minds up, and Houllier must go. It matters not that had their Manc counterparts had their way, Demento would have been sacked in 89. Short-termers, who don't know what *support* means, to the point where they stay at home for important FA cup ties.

 

Dave you have NO right to question anyone's loyalty to the club. Everyone has their own reasons for what time and money they can give. Most on here have agonised long and hard before coming out in favour of a managerial change.

 

 

As for Emile Heskey, his efforts were worthy of anyone, and Hyslop's saves were top draw. He can be lazy, yeh, he was at times yesterday, and he needs to leave Liverpool now because no matter what he does, it won't be appreciated. Kewell has done nothing since last year (YEOVIL) but nobody says jack shit about him. YMO has been poor in a few games (injured no doubt) but they leave him alone, at least for now.

 

Now on most of this I agree. But is it not the manager's responsibility to get the best out of these players? Heskey is not performing as we know he can, whether that be through his own lazyness/lack of confidence/motivation. Even if he was on top form it is difficult to score when having to defend set pieces and make up a 5 man midfield. Both HK & MO have, alledgedly, been playing with injuries. Who do you blame for that?

 

Carra MUST have been told to get forward more, and why not, he was a midfielder in the early days, he can pass, and one day soon he'll score.

 

Yes and he has been one of highlights of the season. Risse even said yeterday he was his inspiration

 

btw...have you seen some of the names they want as our new manager?? Keegan, Toshack......O'Neil........ffs!!

 

So would you give Houllier another season? If so what would you expect from season 04/05?

[Guest Dancing Dave]

Dave you have NO right to question anyone's loyalty to the club. Everyone has their own reasons for what time and money they can give. Most on here have agonised long and hard before coming out in favour of a managerial change.>>

 

Cath, I posted on another site that Liverpool fans have had a big call on their finances of late, four home games in 21 days, plus nearby away at Bolton, and a (now postponed) further home game on Saturday. There IS only so much money available. My point is though that on THIS site there appears to be a lot of moaning ****holes who seldom if EVER go the game, and usually they're the ones with most to say. As for agonising, everybody is allowed an opinion, what concerns me is the depth of knowledge (or otherwise) behind those opinions. JS, who I know, and is a regular home and away, is now anti Houllier, and whilst I disagree with him over this, I respect the opinion because it's based on actually seeing the team's performances. One beaut called Cheyrou a 'non-entity' after Sunday's performance, yet Cheyrou was applauded off by the vast majority of the crowd, to the point where he returned the applause. Yet one of these geniuses calls him a non-entity. Now the point of THIS is that certain players, and our manager, will NEVER do anything right in the eyes of some.

 

 

 

 

Now on most of this I agree. But is it not the manager's responsibility to get the best out of these players? Heskey is not performing as we know he can, whether that be through his own lazyness/lack of confidence/motivation. Even if he was on top form it is difficult to score when having to defend set pieces and make up a 5 man midfield. Both HK & MO have, alledgedly, been playing with injuries. Who do you blame for that?>>

 

 

I guess you could say SOME of it is down to that bad luck we don't have. For instance, at a time when Kewell is clearly not fit, our other width player goes to Africa for a tournament. Meanwhile, a player that could fill the Owen role broke his ankle, and is still regaining fitness. So should the manager keep playing the 19 yr old FSP?? Didn't Evans get castigated for doing that to Owen?? Why doesn't Moyes play Everton's best player in every game?? Why doesn't Ferguson play Ronaldo every week?? See where this is going?? Houllier defends a lead last week and gets booed, yet the same booers were no doubt moaning about how we lost leads because we were too attack minded (Newcastle last season) The same people who say luck doesn't come in to it will tell you the treble doesn't count because we were lucky!! It's mind-boggling.

 

 

 

Yes and he has been one of highlights of the season. Risse even said yeterday he was his inspiration>>

 

You won't be surprised to know I seldom criticise Liverpool players (Jimmy Carter excepted) and I used to shake my head when arra got stick. Yeh, he's disappointed in his support play, but as a defender there are few better. This added dimension just makes him a better player.

 

 

 

So would you give Houllier another season? If so what would you expect from season 04/05?

>>

 

Yes, and next season I'd expect a young team with 12 more months together to be there or there abouts. How about you???

[Barrington Womble]

I saw an article a little while back on arsenal and it was using all the stats ged loves so much. they pulled up a particular game where they actually got beat (think it may have been v inter at home), but showed how high the work rate was of their players. I think Ljunberg during the game ran 12 miles and for only 10 seconds of the game he was actually standing still. it also said although he was the hardest working of the arsenal midfield, there wasn't much to choose between any of them and these were normal figures no matter how well they play - and they are well in excess of any other side in the prem. No figures were printed to back this up, but the article wasn't trying to grind any axe with anyone, so i presume there were facts to back it up, but they didn't print them to stop the article being boring (although I feel I'm getting like that now!!). Simply arsenal work harder than anyone else, which is why they seem to have more time and space on the ball than anyone else. I think if our midfield had the same work rate, we may see the benefits - there's nobody to blame for that except the manager and coaching staff.

 

Dave, you've known me long enough to know I'm not a part timer - but I want Houllier to go. Long after Houllier, Parry, Owen, Gerrard and anyone else you care to name has gone I will be there supporting my club - our club. You see loyalty to the individual, my own opinion is the club comes 1st no matter what. When Houllier sold Fowler, I thought that was a sad day for the club, but it was right - for whatever reasons (injurues, being frozen out, playing 2nd fiddle to YMO) he just wasn't the player he was. I've watched Houllier closely since his op and as someone else mentioned on this thread he's just not the same bloke. The club is going backwards and as far as I'm concerned nobody is bigger than the club, the manager included. You're entitled to your opinions mate, but so is everyone else. I'm as loyal as anyone to LFC, not Gerard Houller. (and I don't give a f*ck how long it took ferguson, they were different managers and different times).

[Paul]

Dave, don't you have ANY doubts about Houllier's ability to take us to the title? This isn't an attempt to start a slanging match - it's a serious question.

[Barrington Womble]

sorry dave, looks like you've already answered a bit of my post, shows how slow i am at typing!!! :D

[Mav]

Come on a young team !!

 

Half the team are around the 30 mark.

 

Mickey, who I would class as young, has two world cups under his belt and a European footballer of the year.

 

When they start holding up three fingers and tell you its four start worrying.

[Guest Dancing Dave]

Dancing Dave wrote:

 

"It matters not that had their Manc counterparts had their way, Demento would have been sacked in 89."

 

Using Ferguson as an example is a very poor way of defending Houllier imo. There is no guarantee that keeping Houllier - just because the mancs did it with Ferguson- that we are going to come good. Absolutely no guarantee.

 

Do you use this argument because you've run out? It seems that instead of defending Houllier you've just resorted to abusing everyone who is in disagreement with you (a lot of people btw). Ridiculing other people's suggestions, calling them part timers, when in reality you don't know:

 

a) how a new man would fare in the job

b) anything about your fellow TLW forumites>>

 

The Ferguson comparison is a fair one. As is the comparison to kneejerk clubs such as Man city, look where they are. Demento would have been out of a job because of the very same people as would now have Houllier out, people desperate for success.

 

Why don't you sit back a bit and instead of parading your superior knowledge etc. try and listen. You might not agree, but at least show everyone else on here some respect.>>

 

There are people I respect on here, I do listen, I just don't hear much worth listening to, and it has NOTHING to do with 'superior knowledge' mate. We live in a 'must have it now' world, and it seems to me most of the must haves post on here!

 

It is fast becoming a characteristic of the Houllierites to abuse and apportion blame, and it doesn't really suit anyone associated with this club. Let's try and get this debate back on track and not resort to petty insults.

>>

 

What debate?? All you hear on here is 'Houllier's shite, cheyrous shite, Heskeys shite...and mostly off the DFS brigade.

[Guest Dancing Dave]

Come on a young team !!

 

Half the team are around the 30 mark.

 

QUOTE]

 

Yeh?? Who?? Hamman, Hyppia and Henchoz. That's if you count Kirkland as our number 1 GK. You're talking shite mate.

[DT]

And does that justify your own insults then do you think?

 

You haven't been on this forum for long enough to realise that there has been much arguing over the whole affair on a much higher level than "Heskey's shite, Cheyrou's shite".

 

In fact, this has gone on for over a year now, with most of the discussions being kept at a very high level.

 

That was until a few people decided they had had enough and started hurling abuse in every direction imaginable - at Houllierites as well as at non-Houllierites - seemingly because these people dared hold different opinions than a select few.

 

Your posts on here and Scousewegian's "The blame is TLW's" post of last week testify to that.

[Mav]

Then give us the counter arguments.

 

You are taking a lot of stick on here at the moment - some deserved - but within your non ranty posts you make some fair points.

 

Do you think we are going in the right direction?

Do you think the results/performances are good enough?

Do you think Houllier knows what he is doing in his team/tactics selection NOW he has a full squad to chose from?

 

I have said before nothing would give me greater pleasure to see GH turn it around but I am now no longer convinced that he can. If that makes me a lesser fan than you then so be it.

[Mav]

"You're talking shite mate."

 

Had a feeling I might be

[Guest Dancing Dave]

Dave, don't you have ANY doubts about Houllier's ability to take us to the title? This isn't an attempt to start a slanging match - it's a serious question.

Paul, I had doubts about every manager we ever had. I believe Houllier was taking us in the right direction until his illness, and I STILL believe, despite mistakes such as Diao, that he can take us all the way.