The "all around" Rafa thread....

[WhiskeyJar]

For the past few days I have been in a constant discussion with family members and friends about Rafas decision to leave Keane on the bench for the entire 90 minutes against Hull.

 

The most arguments were against Rafa saying "why would he leave a 20 million striker on the bench for most of the second half and then send Lucas on?"

 

The answer to this question would identify you as a Pro or Anti Rafa Benitez Liverpool fan.

 

Some might say that he bottled it. That instead of going at them guns blazing he try to contain Hull when some attacking flair was needed. This goes to show the lack of attacking tactics that Rafa does not have. Although defensively the team was fine at the second half, we needed another goal at a time when caution was not needed.

 

Others might say that although Keane did very well against PSV, the gaffer was unconvinced from the likes of Babel, and in turn believed that Babels pace and tricker would open up Hull. This however is a weak argument as Rafa could still throw Keane on as a "last throw of the dice" decision since Babel was being ineffective.

 

Which leaves us to my argument. Keane did not play because Rafa did not think that he could have any impact on the game. Instead of going for experience he went for pace and trickery which did not come through for him. It was a gambel and it did not pay off.

 

It was one of the few times that Rafa subs did not have any impact on the game. Wherever Keane would of made any kind of impact we will never know, but even without Keane the other subs should made something more out of the chance they were given.

 

I dont blame Rafa for the first two subs but the Lucas I will admit took me by suprise. The game needed a goal, not containment. So why the last one?

 

Rafa should of went for it and did, but he should of went all the way and not leave Keane on the bench. Maybe he was protecting him for the fans who were getting on his back a little bit and knew they definatley would if he did not score against Hull.

 

I just hope agaisnt Arsenal he gets his subs right as we do need to start picking up 3 pointers again......if we are going to have any chance of winning the league!!!!!!

[dave u]

Yeah thats it, he was worried the fans might boo Keane, so he sent on... er... Lucas!

[Spy Bee]

It's much more understandable if Keane is trying to engineer a move away as has been claimed.

[Redshadow]

I think Rafa' will not only use Keane next week but also that he will use him as a lone striker - that formation worked at the Bridge so why shouldn't it work at the Emirates? It's the ONLY formation we could use that could accomodate, Keane, Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt, Mascherano AND Riera. I think Babel, Ngog and El Zhar will be our 3 main attacking subs next week and that Aurelio MIGHT feature at least on the bench.

 

I WOULD say that Rafa' might use the formation he used against the Mancs but since Gerrard isn't injured and after his rescue act last week, Rafa' WON'T drop him so I can only see him using something like the formation above. And given Rafa' publicly stating his support for Keane before Saturday, One thing is certain. Keane WILL play some part next week. On that I'd stake money............

[SpeedyG]

For the past few days I have been in a constant discussion with family members and friends about Rafas decision to leave Keane on the bench for the entire 90 minutes against Hull.

 

The most arguments were against Rafa saying "why would he leave a 20 million striker on the bench for most of the second half and then send Lucas on?"

 

The answer to this question would identify you as a Pro or Anti Rafa Benitez Liverpool fan.

 

Some might say that he bottled it. That instead of going at them guns blazing he try to contain Hull when some attacking flair was needed. This goes to show the lack of attacking tactics that Rafa does not have. Although defensively the team was fine at the second half, we needed another goal at a time when caution was not needed.

 

Others might say that although Keane did very well against PSV, the gaffer was unconvinced from the likes of Babel, and in turn believed that Babels pace and tricker would open up Hull. This however is a weak argument as Rafa could still throw Keane on as a "last throw of the dice" decision since Babel was being ineffective.

 

Which leaves us to my argument. Keane did not play because Rafa did not think that he could have any impact on the game. Instead of going for experience he went for pace and trickery which did not come through for him. It was a gambel and it did not pay off.

 

It was one of the few times that Rafa subs did not have any impact on the game. Wherever Keane would of made any kind of impact we will never know, but even without Keane the other subs should made something more out of the chance they were given.

 

I dont blame Rafa for the first two subs but the Lucas I will admit took me by suprise. The game needed a goal, not containment. So why the last one?

 

Rafa should of went for it and did, but he should of went all the way and not leave Keane on the bench. Maybe he was protecting him for the fans who were getting on his back a little bit and knew they definatley would if he did not score against Hull.

 

I just hope agaisnt Arsenal he gets his subs right as we do need to start picking up 3 pointers again......if we are going to have any chance of winning the league!!!!!!

 

Goals require service. Rafa guessed better service was needed and that Babel + El Zhar + Kuyt + Gerrard + A late arriving Lucas would be good enough to finish off the "improved" service.

 

Alas, it wasn't to be. Let's face it, who in life has never made a 50/50 call and been wrong? Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone, etc,etc

[Judge]

It's much more understandable if Keane is trying to engineer a move away as has been claimed.

 

No, it isn`t.

 

We are in a position where we can win the league if we get our act together. Rafa`s job now is to do anything he can to give us the best possible chance to reach that goal. That means putting together the strongest possible team for any match and at any time during the matches. This is not a time for revenge, vendetta or freezing out players.

 

If certain players have done something Rafa don`t like, kick their ass and ship them out in the next transfer window, but until then he HAS to use them if they can increase our chances of winning matches.

[The 5th Benitel]

It's much more understandable if Keane is trying to engineer a move away as has been claimed.

 

Or like Babel did as he confirmed himself. I dont think you have to be anti-Rafa to have watched us play this season and think he's talking bollocks by saying Lucas is more likely to contribute to us scoring than Keane. I dont even see how that is a 50/50 call. Having watched him play loads of times i didn't even know Lucas was meant to be an offensive midfielder. He hardly ever gets in the box to score or looks to play other people in goal. Offensive midfielders to me are the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes even Cahill, Modric or Kevin Nolan. I've never ever watched Lucas play and thought he was an attacking midfielder which makes Saturday even more baffling.

 

I cant believe you can be called anti-Rafa for being very concerned after sitting and watching our home games and not be very concerned. In fact, if you're not arsed and think we're fine you must not be watching or have spent the last 4 weeks snorting Prozac.

[hamstrung]

Cahill is easily the most offensive midfielder in the league

[Spy Bee]

No, it isn`t.

 

We are in a position where we can win the league if we get our act together. Rafa`s job now is to do anything he can to give us the best possible chance to reach that goal. That means putting together the strongest possible team for any match and at any time during the matches. This is not a time for revenge, vendetta or freezing out players.

 

If certain players have done something Rafa don`t like, kick their ass and ship them out in the next transfer window, but until then he HAS to use them if they can increase our chances of winning matches.

 

I totally disagree. Although I wouldn't have had him in the squad either.

[The 5th Benitel]

Cahill is easily the most offensive midfielder in the league

 

I was wondering if Rafa meant Lucas was offensive in the sense that he makes people want to write in and complain about him.

[shaunstrudwick]

after much deliberation i have decided that Rafa's substitution tactics were theoretically sound on Saturday - but as at previous times last season the players he was bringing on did not have the required quality to make the substitions effective

 

ultimately that's the problem - our squad still is not good enough for Rafa to get the red 'machine' to perform the way he wants to

 

this still doesn't explain his persistence with Kuyt tho or his decision to ignore Babel or why he doesn't play Keane with a strike partner....

[robslappa]

after much deliberation i have decided that Rafa's substitution tactics were theoretically sound on Saturday - but as at previous times last season the players he was bringing on did not have the required quality to make the substitions effective

 

ultimately that's the problem - our squad still is not good enough for Rafa to get the red 'machine' to perform the way he wants to

 

this still doesn't explain his persistence with Kuyt tho or his decision to ignore Babel or why he doesn't play Keane with a strike partner....

 

So let me get this right. You think his subs were sound yet they didn't have right quality to make the subs effective. How does that work exactly?

[The 5th Benitel]

So let me get this right. You think his subs were sound yet they didn't have right quality to make the subs effective. How does that work exactly?

 

I'm sure it would work you just need to have sniffed a lot of glue beforehand

[Guest LFD]

It was an odd decision.

 

Nothong more, nothing less.

[Red-Ed]

It was clearly an odd decision.

 

It's quite simple - you need a goal - send on a £20 million striker.

 

However, there is a weird kind of logic to what Rafa has said. I've watched games where Henry, RVN, Owen, Torres have had quiet games and been almost invisible and that is due to no service. So he has a point.

 

The problem is £20 million was too much to pay. Old point but true, a £20 million player should be able to create some magic and score a goal from nothing.

 

Who truly believes Keane can do that?

[shaunstrudwick]

So let me get this right. You think his subs were sound yet they didn't have right quality to make the subs effective. How does that work exactly?

 

by only thinking in terms of theory not practise

 

ie bringing on 2 'wingers' and an attacking mid could provide the striker with more goal scoring opportunities - as was Rafa's thinking

 

however this would not work if:

 

a) your striker is shit

b) the players coming on are shit (Lucas)/out of form (Babel)/played out of position (El Zahar)

 

Rafa has done this loads of times - like the team selection against Marseille in last year's CL - it's like the players he sees in training are 100% improved on the ones that turn up on a match day

[The 5th Benitel]

It was clearly an odd decision.

 

It's quite simple - you need a goal - send on a £20 million striker.

 

However, there is a weird kind of logic to what Rafa has said. I've watched games where Henry, RVN, Owen, Torres have had quiet games and been almost invisible and that is due to no service. So he has a point.

 

The problem is £20 million was too much to pay. Old point but true, a £20 million player should be able to create some magic and score a goal from nothing.

 

Who truly believes Keane can do that?

 

 

He did it a fair few times for Spurs last year. Anyway, the point is he's far more likely to do something like that than Lucas.

[shaunstrudwick]

It was clearly an odd decision.

 

It's quite simple - you need a goal - send on a £20 million striker.

 

However, there is a weird kind of logic to what Rafa has said. I've watched games where Henry, RVN, Owen, Torres have had quiet games and been almost invisible and that is due to no service. So he has a point.

 

The problem is £20 million was too much to pay. Old point but true, a £20 million player should be able to create some magic and score a goal from nothing.

 

Who truly believes Keane can do that?

 

he has done it before at Spurs but VERY rarely

 

i honestly do not know what type of player/attributes rafa was looking for when he bought Keane - we should've spent the money on a winger

[jackofdk]

If Rafa doesn't trust Keane to create a goal out of nothing then he shouldn't have paid 20 million pounds to get him.

[shaunstrudwick]

He did it a fair few times for Spurs last year. Anyway, the point is he's far more likely to do something like that than Lucas.

 

true - but Rafa is blinkered when it come to Dirk Kuyt and believes he is a fotballing GOD capable of winning any football game against any opposition

[robslappa]

by only thinking in terms of theory not practise

 

ie bringing on 2 'wingers' and an attacking mid could provide the striker with more goal scoring opportunities - as was Rafa's thinking

 

however this would not work if:

 

a) your striker is shit

b) the players coming on are shit (Lucas)/out of form (Babel)/played out of position (El Zahar)

 

Rafa has done this loads of times - like the team selection against Marseille in last year's CL - it's like the players he sees in training are 100% improved on the ones that turn up on a match day

 

That is an absolute load of bollocks. You make substitutions based on what you have on the bench. You don’t make a substitution and hope when you bring El Zhar that he starts performing like Stanley Matthews.

 

The bottom line is we had one striker on the pitch who wasn’t playing well and we needed a goal. And we had two strikers on the bench who had scored in midweek and they never got on the pitch because Lucas can control the ball in midfield. If that’s what you call theoretically sound, then I’m sorry but you’re off your fucking trolley.

[shaunstrudwick]

That is an absolute load of bollocks. You make substitutions based on what you have on the bench. You don’t make a substitution and hope when you bring El Zhar that he starts performing like Stanley Matthews.

 

The bottom line is we had one striker on the pitch who wasn’t playing well and we needed a goal. And we had two strikers on the bench who had scored in midweek and they never got on the pitch because Lucas can control the ball in midfield. If that’s what you call theoretically sound, then I’m sorry but you’re off your fucking trolley.

 

i'm not off my trolley - RAFA IS!! i was trying to think things through from his point of view

 

personally i would have started Keane and Babel ahead of Kuyt and Benayoun

[robslappa]

i'm not off my trolley - RAFA IS!! i was trying to think things through from his point of view

 

personally i would have started Keane and Babel ahead of Kuyt and Benayoun

 

You agreed with him. You said in theory the subs were sound, but they weren't!!

[shaunstrudwick]

You agreed with him. You said in theory the subs were sound, but they weren't!!

 

they were only sound if the players he were bringing on were any good / better than his other options!

 

as we have established the subs that came on were not any good and the striker who we were relying to convert the chances was also shit and had been shit all game

 

but clearly Rafa saw things differently

[Manny]

You agreed with him. You said in theory the subs were sound, but they weren't!!

 

Rafa, I think, sees Lucas as better than he is. He's swapped him "like for like" with Gerrard in the past, and I think he sees him as being a box to box midfielder who could pop up in the box with a goal while still maintaining possession in midfield. Unfortunately, he isn't good enough to do that. He'd have been better off gambling with Keane.