Manchester Arena Explosions?

[Section_31]

Seeing some stuff from a Labour MP on Twitter ignoring intel from the yanks about this. Maybe that's why they're leaking to the NY Times.

[Harry Squatter]

I carry POWER lad. You sit there thinkin' i'm afraid of you, i ain't scared of you. Take the suicide vests away from ya and see what happens. I fight for me kids lad, most important thing in the world is me coming home safe so i can kiss me beautiful kids heads as they sleep. Never forget that.

If he could fly a chopper he'd have z cars on loudspeakers instead of ride of the valkriyes while blowing up Raqqa.

[King Emlyn]

Just looking at a report on the investigation and this, as with just about every other major investigation is heavily centred,traced and pieced together with cctv footage, which apparently is such a huge intrusion upon our freedom........is this what's known as a paradox?

[Rico1304]

Criticizing Islam—just as you would Christianity, Mormonism, or Scientology—doesn't make you a bigot.

 

Singling it out for protection does.

[Boss]

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Bellend.

 

Just another stupid person with stupid opinions.  The fact that he's been punched in the head more than most people doesn't add any weight to his views.

[Red Phoenix]

Criticizing Islam—just as you would Christianity, Mormonism, or Scientology—doesn't make you a bigot.

 

Singling it out for protection does.

 

People are singling it out for protection for good reason : it's probably the most misrepresented religion on Earth right now. There's several big reasons, like Saudi Arabia, Wahhabist extremism, propaganda, and the west supporting Saudi Arabia (oil, petrodollars, and all the other connected shit) which gives them more of an ability to export that extremism all over the world. The vast majority of Muslims aren't Wahhabists. ISIS are very closely connected to Wahhabism.

 

But you and so many others going on about the same crap fail to deal with those subjects because it debases so much of your argument.

[M_B]

 

He's emotional I'll give him that. Doesn't make him right though.

[Elite]

Not a fan of Bellew but he's spot on there.

 

Apart from the executions and stoning.

[Red Phoenix]

Criticizing Islam—just as you would Christianity, Mormonism, or Scientology—doesn't make you a bigot.

 

Singling it out for protection does.

 

An extract on Wahhabism for you. Why ignore talking about how this is corrupting so much of Islam?

 

How Saudi Arabia exports radical Islam

 

The Week Staff

 

Where has Wahhabism reached?

 

Nearly everywhere in the Muslim world except where Iran holds sway. In the 1980s, Saudi money and fighters poured into Afghanistan to help the mujahedeen fight the Soviets, an effort that gave rise to the Taliban and eventually to al Qaeda. In the 1990s, Saudi aid to the Bosnian Muslims struggling in the wars that broke up Yugoslavia brought the Wahhabi strain of Islam to Europe. That same decade, Saudi money helped to further radicalize Chechnya's Muslims. One of the cables released by WikiLeaks quotes then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton: "Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide." Most members of al Qaeda were Saudi, including Osama bin Laden, and 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis.

 

Where does ISIS fit into this picture?

 

The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria sees itself as purer than the Saudi regime, but its fundamentalist Sunni doctrine has its roots in Wahhabism. Bob Graham, a former Democratic senator from Florida who has called for declassification of the portion of the 9/11 Commission report dealing with Saudi Arabian links to the hijackers, says ISIS "is a product of Saudi ideals, Saudi money, and Saudi organizational support." In effect, Graham says, ISIS represents a form of Wahhabi ideology that the Saudis can't control — a cancer that now threatens the kingdom. "Who serves as fuel for ISIS? Our own youth," said Saudi dissident writer Turki Al-Hamad this year. "In order to stop ISIS, you must first dry up this ideology at the source."

 

The madrasas' impact

 

During the decade-long Afghan struggle against the Soviets, Saudi princes funded the explosive growth of madrasas in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The schools, located in rural communities where there was no other source of education, taught a militant form of Islam, telling students they had a sacred duty to fight infidels. Out of these schools came the radical students who eventually formed the Taliban, as well as many al Qaeda recruits. Today, many of these Pakistani schools draw students from Nigeria, Indonesia, Malaysia, and elsewhere, and they return home radicalized. "The ideology that's propagated by these schools is so significant in shaping minds in the Muslim world," says political scientist Vali Nasr of Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. "If regular schooling is not schooling people, and schools that propagate fanaticism are schooling people, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what would be the impact."

 

http://theweek.com/articles/570297/how-saudi-arabia-exports-radical-islam

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I think he's emotional too. It's not as bad as I expected.

 

But, it's stupid. It's full of impossible and unworkable suggestions. Although, I agree entirely with his suggestion of segregation in prisons to prevent radicalisation.

[General Dryness]

I knew there would come a time where I needed better knowledge of boy bands.

 

For fuck sake.

 

Disappointed in you Jairz.

 

You couldn't even muster up something with "Middle East 17".

[Rico1304]

People are singling it out for protection for good reason : it's probably the most misrepresented religion on Earth right now. There's several big reasons, like Saudi Arabia, Wahhabist extremism, propaganda, and the west supporting Saudi Arabia (oil, petrodollars, and all the other connected shit) which gives them more of an ability to export that extremism all over the world. The vast majority of Muslims aren't Wahhabists. ISIS are very closely connected to Wahhabism.

 

But you and so many others going on about the same crap fail to deal with those subjects because it debases so much of your argument.

That's not my quote, it's Ali Rizvi, a brown man of Pakistani descent. He's an ex-Muslim.

 

So he's speaking from authority, can't be accused of racism and yet he's still wrong?

[Jose Jones]

That's not my quote, it's Ali Rizvi, a brown man of Pakistani descent. He's an ex-Muslim.

 

So he's speaking from authority, can't be accused of racism and yet he's still wrong?

Of course he can be wrong, it's just one dude with an opinion.

[Rico1304]

Of course he can be wrong, it's just one dude with an opinion.

So what in his statement is wrong then? My point is that anyone criticising is usually labelled a racist or islamaphobe (whatever that means). - this guy ain't either.

 

Just one guy? I can't provide many, many more if you want.

[ZonkoVille77]

So are all Muslims good or bad?

 

Should we all be racist now? What's the official line the church has taken on this?

[Jose Jones]

So what in his statement is wrong then? My point is that anyone criticising is usually labelled a racist or islamaphobe (whatever that means). - this guy ain't either.

 

Just one guy? I can't provide many, many more if you want.

I don't think he is wrong, especially taken as a statement without context. His opinion is also not incompatible with Red Phoenix's point.

 

Rico, this is all very tedious as we've done it a hundred times. There's barely anyone labelling those who criticise Islam as racists on this thread. However you always straw man these things deliberately over and over again. In order mainly to try and gouge people into suggesting you are Islamophobic, so you can then have a gotcha internet argument moment.

 

On the odd occasion people stay with it long enough to coax a more expansive opinion out of you, you admit that Islamic reform is difficult and just a part of the issue, which is what 90% of everyone agrees anyway.

 

There might obviously be disagreements around the varying degrees of impact of the causes and possible options for reducing the future terrorist threat. We could probably have a good natured and interesting discussion around that, but you make it a bit trickier by being so fixated on making your one single play over and over again.

[Rico1304]

I don't think he is wrong, especially taken as a statement without context. His opinion is also not incompatible with Red Phoenix's point.

Rico, this is all very tedious as we've done it a hundred times. There's barely anyone labelling those who criticise Islam as racists on this thread. However you always straw man these things deliberately over and over again. In order mainly to try and gouge people into suggesting you are Islamophobic, so you can then have a gotcha internet argument moment.

On the odd occasion people stay with it long enough to coax a more expansive opinion out of you, you admit that Islamic reform is difficult and just a part of the issue, which is what 90% of everyone agrees anyway.

There might obviously be disagreements around the varying degrees of impact of the causes and possible options for reducing the future terrorist threat. We could probably have a good natured and interesting discussion around that, but you make it a bit trickier by being so fixated on making your one single play over and over again.

Hold on, I've been accused of being racist and bigoted tons of times, on the last page for example.

 

Looks like this is a positive start though https://twitter.com/harasrafiq/status/867499433390481408

[skend04]

So are all Muslims good or bad?

 

Should we all be racist now? What's the official line the church has taken on this?

It's all a grey area.

[Lee909]

So are all Muslims good or bad?

 

Should we all be racist now? What's the official line the church has taken on this?

Pope Urban

“This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God.”

 

 

Don't think they like them much

[Jose Jones]

Hold on, I've been accused of being racist and bigoted tons of times, on the last page for example.

 

Looks like this is a positive start though https://twitter.com/harasrafiq/status/867499433390481408

Yes, because you act on purpose to get that response.

[Rico1304]

Yes, because you act on purpose to get that response.

Absolutely not. The responses from people on this subject are completely at odds to their reaction to any other subject.

 

For example, look at the Brexit and Trump threads. There's no nuance there, there's no spectrum there; everyone who voted out or for Trump is a bigot and racist. Look at the religion thread, no defence of Scientology. Then look at the Charlie Hebdo thread and deny the undercurrent isn't 'they got what they deserved'.

 

Edit: in fact further back in this thread someone actually said they were worried about islamaphobia others would face as a result of this. The day after kids were blown up.

[Plev]

Absolutely not. The responses from people on this subject are completely at odds to their reaction to any other subject.

 

For example, look at the Brexit and Trump threads. There's no nuance there, there's no spectrum there; everyone who voted out or for Trump is a bigot and racist. Look at the religion thread, no defence of Scientology. Then look at the Charlie Hebdo thread and deny the undercurrent isn't 'they got what they deserved'.

 

Edit: in fact further back in this thread someone actually said they were worried about islamaphobia others would face as a result of this. The day after kids were blown up.

The last bit you mention about islamaphobia is a massive problem though. My missus works in a pharmacy and the last two days she's worked with one Pakistani and two Indians. The stories she's come back with from them with regards the abuse they take when things like this happen are nothing short of disgusting, and in my mind just ensures a continuation of the mistrust and hatred.

[Red Phoenix]

That's not my quote, it's Ali Rizvi, a brown man of Pakistani descent. He's an ex-Muslim.

 

So he's speaking from authority, can't be accused of racism and yet he's still wrong?

 

I think he is to an extent, yeah. So what I said just applies to him as well. I looked around for any mention of Wahhabism from him and I don't see anything easily. I did find a review of his book though from Raza Raja, which deals with the same thing I was saying (he likes his book, but raises this point) :

 

However, where I have differences with him is the way he has causally linked terrorism with Islam. To be fair to Rizvi, he acknowledges the complications and does not openly say that religion is the sole cause of the recent surge of extremism in the Muslim, particularly Arab world. However, the mechanism needed to be fleshed out more in his book. Let’s not forget that current form of extremism is a very recent phenomenon. During 1960s and 1970s, most of the Arab Muslim countries had Pan Arabism as the dominant ideology. Islam was more of a unifying factor and a sub part of broader Arab culture. The dominance of Islamic theological fundamentalism of the current era started from 1980s and has a lot to do with various structural and international factors also. For example emergence of Taliban, Al-Qaida and now ISIS has also do with interaction between religion and other factors such as Afghan and Iraq wars and the resulting state failures.

 

These extremist ideologies gained appeal when external environment became conducive. What I am suggesting is that religion interacted with other factors to account for the emergence of these ideologies. Religion though important , was not the sole factor. Moreover, terrorism is more of a characteristic of a certain form of Islam ( Wahabi/Salafi) and not an across the board problem.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-book-for-our-times-ali-rizvis-atheist-muslim_us_58cdfef5e4b0e0d348b34452

[Jose Jones]

Absolutely not.

Doubling down. Disappointing.