Subs, should we use them better?

[Code]

What do people think about the issue, do we have a problem, is our squad to thin, could we have used them better?

 

Liverpool-Stoke 1-0

72 min: Sterling on for Aspas

 

Aston Villa- Liverpool 0-1

69 min: Cissokho on for Aspas

83 min: Allen on for Coutinho

 

Liverpool-Man Utd 1-0

60 min: Sterling for Aspas

78 min: Wisdom for Johnson, injury

84 min: Alberto for Coutinho

 

Swansea-Liverpool 2-2

54 min: Aspas for Coutinho, injury

69 min: Toure for Wisdom

81 min: Sterling for Moses

 

Liverpool-Southampton 0-1

46 min: Sterling for Aspas

57 min: Enrique for Agger, injury

72 min: Alberto for Skrtel

 

Sunderland-Liverpool 1-3

75 min: Sterling for Moses

 

Liverpool-Crystal Palace 3-1

66 min: Alberto for Moses

67 min: Agger for Sakho

88 min: Aspas for Sturridge

 

Newcastle-Liverpool 2-2

63 min: Alberto for Sakho

83 min: Sterling for Johnson

[Major Tom]

Meaningless unless you add context, Code72.

[Pureblood]

Rodgers has done a great job signing players and using his subs wisely.  Everything he does is spot on.  Could he walk on water?  Probably.  The guy could unscramble eggs.

[Code]

Sorry for a bit of a strange opening post, but I hit post by a mistake.

 

I was going to change the thread title and add a bit more, but wanted to get the fatcs right before my edit time was gone.

 

I feel we have a problem when it comes to our subs and our use of them.

 

Not once this season do I feel our subs have come on and made a positive impact on the game, there could be several reasons for this but the lack of quality on the subs bench obviously is  a major factor, especially in the attacking part of our game.

 

I also feel we dont really use our bench much unless we are forced to do it by injury, again this could be down to lack of quality, but with only the league and FA cup to play in this season I feel its a bit strange, especially when its the same players coming on every time contributing the amount of fuck all every time, the only time we have used all 3 subs this season is when we have had injuries and when we were up against a lacklustre Crystal palace when we could have been 7-0 up at half time.

 

The lack of quality on our bench is another matter and maybe that could also be discussed in here, but the main issue is how we use them and if we could have used them better seeing as no one have had any positive impact so far.

[Code]

Meaningless unless you add context, Code72.

 

Yes I know, read on.

[Gnasher]

Meaningless unless viewing the events in the game as a whole. More worrying is the bigger picture that Brendan said the squad we took to Newcastle is the strongest we've had all season. Our bench was..

 

Jones

Agger

Alberto

Sterling

Allen

Kelly

Flanagan

 

Not one striker on the bench.

[etho]

I think it's exactly that really, a lack of quality/experience.

 

Aspas is new to the English game so too early to judge, Sterling is obviously a talent, especially if compared to Andros Townsend at the same age, but really needs a loan, not 15 mins from the bench here and there, Alberto looks a lovely talent and in my opinion the most viable option for cover for Coutinho that we have, but again is young and new to the English game. For Ibe read Sterling.

 

We need 2 attacking midfielders, basically.

[Trumo]

It should always be possible to use subs to have a positive impact on a game. By 'positive impact' I mean affecting the game in a way that benefits the team, be it to boost our attacking threat, give certain players a rest, kill time, or batten down the hatches.

 

I guess the success of our substitutions lies in whether they've fulfilled the purpose for which they were brought on. If it was to help the side gain control of the match and start threatening the opposition, then no, you can say that they've not been successful in that, because the team hasn't looked that good in the second half of matches. If a player was brought on to help the team hold on to what we have, and the team has managed to do that, then yes you can say the change fulfilled the purpose.

[TheHowieLama]

Most feel Alberto had a positive impact last week. So, there is that.

[G Richards]

I will confine my response to games we lost or drew. It seems churlish to me to dissect whether we used subs wisely in games we won. 

 

Southampton game, 0-1

 

46 mins, Sterling on for Aspas.

Aspas was not injured but the game was passing him by. That was a reasonable change to make. Sterling is by no means the finished article, and he has a lot of work to do to fulfil his potential, but on the face of it, this was a reasonable change to make. Now, Sterling did not come on and get a goal, or set up a goal. Sometimes that happens. If we had more depth perhaps we could have brought on a more accomplished player and Sterling would be out on loan getting more experience. But that is not the case right now. So Sterling was a reasonable addition at that point, even if we did not draw or win the game. 

 

Same game: Enrique for Agger, injury. Enough said. 

 

Same game: 72 mins Alberto for Skrtel.

Good substitution. Bring off a defender while we are chasing the game and add a more attack minded player. Solid thinking. 

 

 

Newcastle, 2-2

 

63 mins Alberto for Sakho.

Good substitution. Bring off a defender. Put on a more attacking player, especially as the game was there to be won. Unfortunately we didn't win it, but again, the thinking was sound. Alberto is a young player trying find his way. He is by no means the finished article, but I felt he was finding his feet a little more against Newcastle. He got some vital experience and saw a fair amount of the ball. He was trying to find a telling forward pass to get the winner. He looks like his approach to the game is sound. More experience needed, obviously.  

 

83 mins same game, Sterling for Johnson.

Johnson was coming off an injury so it seemed sensible to remove him late on as he was fading. That's the time when re-injury occurs, so it was a sensible choice to remove him. Again, Sterling is a young player trying to make a name for himself. By no means the finished article, and as it happens he didn't offer very much when he came on, but the thinking behind the substitution was sound. 

 

 

Swansea game, 2-2

54 mins, Aspas for Coutinho, injury. Enough said. 

 

69 mins, Toure for Wisdom

Wisdom was not having a good time of it. That happens with younger players. He has a lot of potential, but he wasn't having the best day. It was sound logic to bring on the experience of Toure in his place. Perhaps that added to a point being saved, who knows?

 

81 mins, Sterling for Moses

Moses was fading badly. I could see the logic behind this substitution. 

 

 

Conclusion:

There is no problem with the logic or thinking in our substitutions. There is a small problem in the quality we can bring off the bench, especially if we have some injuries, as we have done. At that point we are calling on younger players more often than not. This is where we are as a club right now. We do not have two world class players for every position. So we have some youngsters, with good potential, to call on. I don't mind that, to a point. I want to see us grow some of our own players here. We do not have the cash to simply buy the finished article for every position. It will be fascinating to see how it all unfolds.

 

5 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat - third in the league and now over a spate of injuries/bans, so the squad is a bit deeper because of that.

 

Onwards and upwards. Nothing much to see here, in my view.  

[Babb'sBurstNad]

There's not much to choose from.

 

Sterling and Alberto shouldn't be brought on as potential game-changers for a side hoping to get into Europe.

[TheHowieLama]

I have a feeling this is going to end up like every other thread that the title has a question mark in.

 

The Rev's conclusion there is spot on. End of.

[Code]

I will confine my response to games we lost or drew. It seems churlish to me to dissect whether we used subs wisely in games we won. 

 

Southampton game, 0-1

 

46 mins, Sterling on for Aspas.

Aspas was not injured but the game was passing him by. That was a reasonable change to make. Sterling is by no means the finished article, and he has a lot of work to do to fulfil his potential, but on the face of it, this was a reasonable change to make. Now, Sterling did not come on and get a goal, or set up a goal. Sometimes that happens. If we had more depth perhaps we could have brought on a more accomplished player and Sterling would be out on loan getting more experience. But that is not the case right now. So Sterling was a reasonable addition at that point, even if we did not draw or win the game. 

 

Same game: Enrique for Agger, injury. Enough said. 

 

Same game: 72 mins Alberto for Skrtel.

Good substitution. Bring off a defender while we are chasing the game and add a more attack minded player. Solid thinking. 

 

 

Newcastle, 2-2

 

63 mins Alberto for Sakho.

Good substitution. Bring off a defender. Put on a more attacking player, especially as the game was there to be won. Unfortunately we didn't win it, but again, the thinking was sound. Alberto is a young player trying find his way. He is by no means the finished article, but I felt he was finding his feet a little more against Newcastle. He got some vital experience and saw a fair amount of the ball. He was trying to find a telling forward pass to get the winner. He looks like his approach to the game is sound. More experience needed, obviously.  

 

83 mins same game, Sterling for Johnson.

Johnson was coming off an injury so it seemed sensible to remove him late on as he was fading. That's the time when re-injury occurs, so it was a sensible choice to remove him. Again, Sterling is a young player trying to make a name for himself. By no means the finished article, and as it happens he didn't offer very much when he came on, but the thinking behind the substitution was sound. 

 

 

Swansea game, 2-2

54 mins, Aspas for Coutinho, injury. Enough said. 

 

69 mins, Toure for Wisdom

Wisdom was not having a good time of it. That happens with younger players. He has a lot of potential, but he wasn't having the best day. It was sound logic to bring on the experience of Toure in his place. Perhaps that added to a point being saved, who knows?

 

81 mins, Sterling for Moses

Moses was fading badly. I could see the logic behind this substitution. 

 

 

Conclusion:

There is no problem with the logic or thinking in our substitutions. There is a small problem in the quality we can bring off the bench, especially if we have some injuries, as we have done. At that point we are calling on younger players more often than not. This is where we are as a club right now. We do not have two world class players for every position. So we have some youngsters, with good potential, to call on. I don't mind that, to a point. I want to see us grow some of our own players here. We do not have the cash to simply buy the finished article for every position. It will be fascinating to see how it all unfolds.

 

5 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat - third in the league and now over a spate of injuries/bans, so the squad is a bit deeper because of that.

 

Onwards and upwards. Nothing much to see here, in my view.  

 

Good post that, what do you think about us not using all our subs in other games than the Palace game and the games where we have got injuries?

[Wicket]

To answer your original post, Code I think there is more than a hint of the squad being thin especially in central midfield and the attacking areas ie) very little options to really change the game which can be backed up by the fact that 4 out the 8 games Sterling is first change, and then its Alberto who to be fair is still acclimatising. Following on from this it will often appear that we've made what probably looks the wrong change, but if the options are limited anyway then there isnt a huge amount we could do differently.

 

I'd like to have seen Ibe given a chance off the bench purely as something different, just as the same a lot of us would have liked to have seen Sterling brought on as an option a couple of years ago for the same reason (Kenny's last season). Thats is probably the only different thing i think we could have done. 

 

Another issue is that we've had injuries/suspensions in areas where we can least afford it (Coutinho, Suarez, Allen) Who knows what impact Aspas might have had from the bench? (probably fuck all as I think he's not going to cut the mustard), but my point still stands in that the options have been limited anyway.

[Fi!]

There is not really anyone that can be subbed in and expect to make a change with the current bench. 

 

Maybe Allen/Moses/Henderson/Alberto?Apas when they are available. But all those are not player with game changing quality at least for now

[ZonkoVille77]

In an ideal world subs would be used to hold onto what you've already got or to give youngsters a chance, not to go chasing a game. Unfortunately so far this year we've still been chasing games pretty much up until the final whistle which tells me something is not quite right.

 

Whether that's formation of just a general lack of quality I'm not sure because we showed at the end of last season that we're capable of hammering sides. The lack of out and out strikers on the bench is a bit worrying though. Sturridge and Suarez are bound to hit a bad patch at some stage and we've no options from the bench to freshen things up should this happen.

 

I've probably answered my own question there really, quality from the bench is an issue.

[GJM]

I think Mr Richards pretty much rounds it all off there. Quality from the bench is the bigger issue than how those players are used.

 

That said, the one mistake I think we have made with substitutions this season was in the last game, when I think we should have taken off one of the three centre backs at half-time, rather than waiting 15minutes. There was little or nothing to be gained from caution.

 

That aside, I certainly don't perceive a broader problem. 

[Alan Sex]

We should use our subs to disrupt the flow of supplies in the axis shipping lanes, and also sink the occasional battleship.

[Tony Moanero]

We should use our subs to disrupt the flow of supplies in the axis shipping lanes, and also sink the occasional battleship.

Ha ha.

[G Richards]

Good post that, what do you think about us not using all our subs in other games than the Palace game and the games where we have got injuries?

 

 

I'm not really sure. Perhaps, because it is still fairly early in the season, the manager is wanting to give players maximum time to form an understanding and find a rhythm, in the hope that this will pay off over the long haul of a season. 

[spider-neil]

I think Rodgers has done alright with subs this season. The only time I had a real problem with the subs is when a man got sent off at Newcastle. I thought Rodgers should have taken off a defender for a midfielder there and then and then made a further sub at the start of the second half.

 

Newcastle aside leaves a loss to Southampton which was more to do with the wrong starting 11 than the subs to retrieve the situation and Swansea which was about digging in and holding on for a point in a game we could have easily have lost.

 

B+

[Paul]

Good post that, what do you think about us not using all our subs in other games than the Palace game and the games where we have got injuries?

It was a good post, I agree.

 

On the use of subs, there is another point to factor in to the debate, I reckon: sometimes a manager can see something isn't working but may decide to persevere with it simply for developmental reasons as it's in the club and individual player's long term interests.

[Lee909]

Part of the problem is depth at certsin positions, , especially when certain players sre suspended or injured.

We have depth in defense and the ability to play with a bavk three covers up some experienced cover at fullback on the right.But looking at the attacking 3/4 we have little cover that is good enough imo.

Sturridge, Suarez, Coutinho once you get past them you are looking at Moses who can only play wide, he looks lost covering Coutinho.

If we want to make the champions league we need more players on the bench capable og changing games.

We are either relying on kids or players with alot to prove on the bench.The midfield lacks pace/power andva spark at times too.

I like Henderson, Lucas and Allen but none of them would get into most teams that are trying to get champions league football. All are good enough to be around the team but shouldn't be starting most weeks.Henderson and Allen msy well develop into really good players but they have a way to go yet.

[Code]

Some people suggest we have improved massively since Rodgers became our manager after the team he inherited had just reached two finals.

 

If we have improved so much, why is our bench so weak?

[alexjames]

Some people suggest we have improved massively since Rodgers became our manager after the team he inherited had just reached two finals.

 

If we have improved so much, why is our bench so weak?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question