Faith and Religion

[Numero Veinticinco]

Can we all agree they should start paying tax?

 

On everything non-charity related, absolutely. I mean, even the most viciously opposed person must surely admit they do the occasional soup kitchen. They shouldn't have to pay taxes on certain things. Outside of that, absolutely. 

 

That numbers wrong. More like £3bn in total.

 

They pay £3bn in compensation per year? Really? Fucking hell. How do I sign up to get diddled?

[Bjornebye]

You're funny.

 

I dream of a world where nobody tells you what you are allowed to think. That's the entire point.

 

There are plenty of people who already tell you what you are allowed to think, and those people are called things like priests and imams.

 

And politicians 

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

On everything non-charity related, absolutely. I mean, even the most viciously opposed person must surely admit they do the occasional soup kitchen. They shouldn't have to pay taxes on certain things. Outside of that, absolutely. 

 

 

They pay £3bn in compensation per year? Really? Fucking hell. How do I sign up to get diddled?

 

Relax, that's only about £2.40 per child

[Hand Shandy]

You're funny.

 

I dream of a world where nobody tells you what you are allowed to think. That's the entire point.

 

There are plenty of people who already tell you what you are allowed to think, and those people are called things like priests and imams.

I've tried this with you before and got nowhere, but let's give it another go...

 

Surely by stopping/abolishing religion, you're telling people what they can think?

[Pureblood]

Strontium Dogma.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

I've tried this with you before and got nowhere, but let's give it another go...

 

Surely by stopping/abolishing religion, you're telling people what they can think?

 

Well, depends how you go about it. If you leave religion out of the school curriculum, uptake will go down over time. We shouldn't be teaching something that is demonstrably false. Religion has no place in schools or government. That's obviously just a start.

 

Religion shouldn't be made illegal in some aggressive act of oppression, but it shouldn't be set up to flourish in the face of science.

[Pureblood]

Well, depends how you go about it. If you leave religion out of the school curriculum, uptake will go down over time. We shouldn't be teaching something that is demonstrably false. Religion has no place in schools or government. That's obviously just a start.

 

Religion shouldn't be made illegal in some aggressive act of oppression, but it shouldn't be set up to flourish in the face of science.

 

It's not set up to flourish in the face of science because science is a mandatory GCSE, religious education is not.

[Hand Shandy]

Well, depends how you go about it. If you leave religion out of the school curriculum, uptake will go down over time. We shouldn't be teaching something that is demonstrably false. Religion has no place in schools or government. That's obviously just a start.

 

Religion shouldn't be made illegal in some aggressive act of oppression, but it shouldn't be set up to flourish in the face of science.

Fine by me.

 

People still have a choice.

 

Not what Stronts is proposing however.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

It's not set up to flourish in the face of science because science is a mandatory GCSE, religious education is not.

 

Depends on the school, plenty of primary schools still teach religion

[Pureblood]

Depends on the school, plenty of primary schools still teach religion

 

Right, but after a certain age science becomes mandatory.  You have to study it, whereas religious education falls by the wayside.

 

And society clearly places a higher emphasis upon science generally.  You're not going to end up as chief executive of Apple by reciting the Bible.  

[Hand Shandy]

Depends on the school, plenty of primary schools still teach religion

My daughter's does.

 

Mine did.

 

Strangely, I reached a point in my life where I decided sky fairies don't exist.

 

I managed that all by myself, and I imagine my daughter probably will as well.

 

I did, however, have a choice.

 

Stronts, the arbiter of all that is liberal, doesn't appear to want people to have that choice.

[Hand Shandy]

Oh and I'm fully aware rico is on the same wavelength, but he's obviously a crypto-fascist.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

My daughter's does.

 

Mine did.

 

Strangely, I reached a point in my life where I decided sky fairies don't exist.

 

I managed that all by myself, and I imagine my daughter probably will as well.

 

I did, however, have a choice.

 

Stronts, the arbiter of all that is liberal, doesn't appear to want people to have that choice.

 

You made the decision based on the myriad or external influences. Family, friends, education, people you looked up to etc.

 

Just because we can see through the BS doesn't mean everyone will have that ability. Religion is a worldwide problem and indoctrination and integration into curriculum and law is a problem that mostly gets worse when you step outside the UK/Europe.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

Right, but after a certain age science becomes mandatory.  You have to study it, whereas religious education falls by the wayside.

 

And society clearly places a higher emphasis upon science generally.  You're not going to end up as chief executive of Apple by reciting the Bible.  

 

Mostly, yes, but again I'm not specifically talking about the UK/Ireland or even Europe. Large portions of the world don't have our level of education and do have more indoctrination baked into schools, laws and their culture in general.

[Hand Shandy]

So now we're not only telling people in our country what they can and can't believe in, but people in other countries as well?

 

People generally get a bit grumpy when you do that...

 

Oh, and don't get me wrong - I fully believe the world would be a much better place without religion. It just isn't going to happen.

[Red Phoenix]

Strangely, I reached a point in my life where I decided sky fairies don't exist.

 

Heresy.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

So now we're not only telling people in our country what they can and can't believe in, but people in other countries as well?

 

People generally get a bit grumpy when you do that...

 

Oh, and don't get me wrong - I fully believe the world would be a much better place without religion. It just isn't going to happen.

 

Stronts was talking about dreaming of "a world without religion" and when asked how one would achieve that without oppressing people, I started down the line of discussing education. It wasn't a specific plan for the UK at any stage.

 

I don't believe it to be achievable either, as long as there is rampant inequality.

[Pureblood]

Mostly, yes, but again I'm not specifically talking about the UK/Ireland or even Europe. Large portions of the world don't have our level of education and do have more indoctrination baked into schools, laws and their culture in general.

 

How do you propose altering the uptake of religion on an intercontinental basis? 

[Duff Man]

It absolutely should form part of the curriculum, imo, but only if it's presented in a neutral way. Sadly that's not the case in a large number of our schools.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

How do you propose altering the uptake of religion on an intercontinental basis? 

 

That's not up to me. See above.

[Rico1304]

Oh and I'm fully aware rico is on the same wavelength, but he's obviously a crypto-fascist.

I'm a fascist? Not sure if you're joking. Should be dead easy to prove though.

 

I think it'd be impossible to ban, and not sure banning would have the desired effect. Let people worship how they want in their own homes as long as it doesn't impact anyone else. Make education and law religion free zones. No religious exemptions anywhere. Full taxation for all churches.

[Pureblood]

That's not up to me. See above.

 

If it's not a specific plan for the UK, who is the plan for?

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

See above

[Pureblood]

*looks skywards*

[Strontium]

I would say that if you honestly thing that encapsulates the beliefs of the religious, that sentence, than you need to research 'religion' more in depth in order to debate it. It's a caricature that those of your persuasion - let's be generous and say 'New Atheist' - is very comfortable with because it's so easy to knock down.

I'm not trying to encapsulate the entirety of religious belief and everything it encompasses. Just demonstrating that religious belief is false. There's no caricatures required; these are things that religious people believe in. For instance, you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the immortality of Jesus Christ. That is an absolute fact and undeniable.

 

But you don't believe things without evidence. All I'm asking is, can I see the evidence showing how the New Atheists have been saving children from predators. I think it's a fair request. You nail people to the mast for this kind of thing, rightly so.

I don't know how I would even go about proving that. Until the New Atheists came along, you simply weren't allowed to challenge organised religion. There's a reason we refer to things that cannot be challenged as "sacred", you know.

 

I don't think it requires a massive leap of faith to link the fact that the New Atheist movement created an environment where religions were permitted to be challenged to the fact that challenging organised religions revealed abuses at the heart of those religions.

 

That is not 'religion', is it. That's a minuscule part of the world, and one version of a religion.

So? It's happening elsewhere too. People in dozens of countries now know that it's okay not to be religious. Obviously the developed countries are at forefront of it, because those are the places where you're allowed to have and express your own opinions.