Kuyt

[hamstrung]

I don't see why he doesn't think he can trust Babel. Trust in what way - to track back? Ronaldo hardly tracks back but Fergie trusts him (i'm not saying Babel is at that level).

 

Because more often than not you don't know what you're going to get.

 

You might get a performance now and then, but when he's bad he's basically a waste of a shirt.

 

I'd say with Kuyt, he knows he might get a similar return in terms of goals/assists but even when he's stinking the place out in an attacking sense, he'll carry on doing the jobs that are asked of him.

 

I don't want to turn this into Kuyt Vs Babel though. I think though, he doesn't mind skill/unpredictability provided some of the basics are there, or where limitations are tolerable because you lose more than you gain by having a more "functional" player in the position.

 

Garcia is the obvious example. If you knew no better you'd say he's about as far away from a caricature of what a "Rafa" player is, as you can get.

[Code]

Sometimes its worth selling players just so they wont stand in the way for other better players.

[Brownie]

Because more often than not you don't know what you're going to get.

 

You might get a performance now and then, but when he's bad he's basically a waste of a shirt.

 

I'd say with Kuyt, he knows he might get a similar return in terms of goals/assists but even when he's stinking the place out in an attacking sense, he'll carry on doing the jobs that are asked of him.

 

I don't want to turn this into Kuyt Vs Babel though. I think though, he doesn't mind skill/unpredictability provided some of the basics are there, or where limitations are tolerable because you lose more than you gain by having a more "functional" player in the position.

 

Garcia is the obvious example. If you knew no better you'd say he's about as far away from a caricature of what a "Rafa" player is, as you can get.

 

I know where you're coming from and if it's true it just highlights a negative attitude for me. If I was a manager I wouldn't judge my right winger on how well he does the dirty jobs; the closing down, the jumping for headers, the covering full backs. Sure, I would want him to contribute defensively but first and foremost I would judge him on his ability to beat the full back, cross the ball, create a chance and score a goal.

 

You don't win games by shutting down an opposition, you win it by creating chances and scoring goals, IMO, and that's why we draw so many games. Earlier in the season Kuyt was scoring goals and doing well so fair enough he justified his place in the team at that point. If you look at his overall LFC career though, he doesn't do it consistently enough and it holds the team back.

 

The Garcia point is an interesting one. I was never a fan of Garcia but he was a flair player who was known more for his goals and assists than his tracking back, so is it any coincidence that with him operating on the right side of midfield we drew a lot less games than we do now? I'm not blaming Kuyt for all of the draws but I think if you had to isolate one example of why we do draw so many games, Kuyt is a good example to look at.

 

His game is remembered/known for stopping full backs get forward/tracking back just as much as it is for scoring/creating goals and I think that's a symbolic example of the current Liverpool.

 

I'm going off a tangent here a bit but to me it makes sense! You're right in the fact that with Babel you don't know what you're gonna get, but until he is given a sustained run in the side, you'll never have any difinitive answer either way. I'd rather sell Babel safe in the knowledge that he's definitely not going to make it, than watch him get regular games somwhere else and wonder what might have been as he rips teams to shreds.

 

If that means that the team loses the odd game on the way, so-be-it because I genuinely believe that during that run he would score and create his fair share of goals which would contribute to victories. That takes me back to the whole, '3 wins and 3 losses are far better than 6 draw scenario'.

 

When I watch us play now, Kuyt just sums everything up for me. Organised, disciplined, honest and at times very effective. But not a winner.

[Catch22]

I know where you're coming from and if it's true it just highlights a negative attitude for me. If I was a manager I wouldn't judge my right winger on how well he does the dirty jobs; the closing down, the jumping for headers, the covering full backs. Sure, I would want him to contribute defensively but first and foremost I would judge him on his ability to beat the full back, cross the ball, create a chance and score a goal.

 

You don't win games by shutting down an opposition, you win it by creating chances and scoring goals, IMO, and that's why we draw so many games. Earlier in the season Kuyt was scoring goals and doing well so fair enough he justified his place in the team at that point. If you look at his overall LFC career though, he doesn't do it consistently enough and it holds the team back.

 

The Garcia point is an interesting one. I was never a fan of Garcia but he was a flair player who was known more for his goals and assists than his tracking back, so is it any coincidence that with him operating on the right side of midfield we drew a lot less games than we do now? I'm not blaming Kuyt for all of the draws but I think if you had to isolate one example of why we do draw so many games, Kuyt is a good example to look at.

 

His game is remembered/known for stopping full backs get forward/tracking back just as much as it is for scoring/creating goals and I think that's a symbolic example of the current Liverpool.

 

I'm going off a tangent here a bit but to me it makes sense! You're right in the fact that with Babel you don't know what you're gonna get, but until he is given a sustained run in the side, you'll never have any difinitive answer either way. I'd rather sell Babel safe in the knowledge that he's definitely not going to make it, than watch him get regular games somwhere else and wonder what might have been as he rips teams to shreds.

 

If that means that the team loses the odd game on the way, so-be-it because I genuinely believe that during that run he would score and create his fair share of goals which would contribute to victories. That takes me back to the whole, '3 wins and 3 losses are far better than 6 draw scenario'.

 

When I watch us play now, Kuyt just sums everything up for me. Organised, disciplined, honest and at times very effective. But not a winner.

 

 

 

"You don't win games by shutting down an opposition, you win it by creating chances and scoring goals, IMO, and that's why we draw so many games"

 

The Mancs have scored less than any other team in the top 5 including Villa but are clearly in pole position.

 

You win things from the back.

Clean sheets vs Spurs, Everton & Hull & we match their defensive record but gain 7 points......

[Brownie]

"You don't win games by shutting down an opposition, you win it by creating chances and scoring goals, IMO, and that's why we draw so many games"

 

The Mancs have scored less than any other team in the top 5 including Villa but are clearly in pole position.

 

You win things from the back.

Clean sheets vs Spurs, Everton & Hull & we match their defensive record but gain 7 points......

 

One goal against Stoke(twice), Fulham, West Ham and Aston Villa would have us 15 points better off.

 

I'd rather watch my team trying to score just ONE goal than concede none.

[hamstrung]

I know where you're coming from and if it's true it just highlights a negative attitude for me. If I was a manager I wouldn't judge my right winger on how well he does the dirty jobs; the closing down, the jumping for headers, the covering full backs. Sure, I would want him to contribute defensively but first and foremost I would judge him on his ability to beat the full back, cross the ball, create a chance and score a goal.

 

You don't win games by shutting down an opposition, you win it by creating chances and scoring goals, IMO, and that's why we draw so many games. Earlier in the season Kuyt was scoring goals and doing well so fair enough he justified his place in the team at that point. If you look at his overall LFC career though, he doesn't do it consistently enough and it holds the team back.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear. My point was that you probably don't get the match winning/changing stuff regularly enough from Babel, to "ignore" his lack of any defensive contribution. I am sure if Babel had shown signs of having the ability to contribute that sort of thing more, he's had have more opportunities. If we had someone who did it regularly, they'd get in ahead of Kuyt, I've no doubt about that. I don't think its about being negative, I think its about the other options not being up to it. Obviously there's an argument that Babel should get more chances, but its a bit catch 22 at the moment. Bar the obvious examples, this season his appearances have usually consisted of him tripping over the ball a lot. A lot of the time, he's getting bigged up simply because he's not Kuyt.

 

The Garcia point is an interesting one. I was never a fan of Garcia but he was a flair player who was known more for his goals and assists than his tracking back, so is it any coincidence that with him operating on the right side of midfield we drew a lot less games than we do now? I'm not blaming Kuyt for all of the draws but I think if you had to isolate one example of why we do draw so many games, Kuyt is a good example to look at.

 

His game is remembered/known for stopping full backs get forward/tracking back just as much as it is for scoring/creating goals and I think that's a symbolic example of the current Liverpool.

 

 

Again - I am not sure its about "tracking back" necessarily or even being particularly able defensively. See my next comment.

 

 

I'm going off a tangent here a bit but to me it makes sense! You're right in the fact that with Babel you don't know what you're gonna get, but until he is given a sustained run in the side, you'll never have any difinitive answer either way. I'd rather sell Babel safe in the knowledge that he's definitely not going to make it, than watch him get regular games somwhere else and wonder what might have been as he rips teams to shreds.

 

If that means that the team loses the odd game on the way, so-be-it because I genuinely believe that during that run he would score and create his fair share of goals which would contribute to victories. That takes me back to the whole, '3 wins and 3 losses are far better than 6 draw scenario'.

 

 

My take on Babel specifically, is that he's a bit thick and doesn't do some of the basic things being asked of him. I've nothing to back that up bar his horrible rap record and slightly "elsewhere" expression.

 

When I watch us play now, Kuyt just sums everything up for me. Organised, disciplined, honest and at times very effective. But not a winner.

 

There's definitely an element of that sometimes. When we're bad, we're not pretty, much like Dirk. When we're good though, I really enjoy the way we play (even when Dirk is in the team). Its true its not happening consistently enough though, and results are suffering as a result.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

How did the fuck did they get to this £28m figure???

[OnizukaEikichi]

hmm that figure is about right for the most hardworking superman player with an awesome hairdo there is. If its true, then its all up to Rafa.

[Guest simon]

Are you taking the piss?

 

If Bellamy is worth what city payed then yeah i'm deadly serious.

[Ted]

Bellamy's better than Kuyt though.

[Guest simon]

Bellamy's better than Kuyt though.

 

Negged

[ToxtethTerror]

Because more often than not you don't know what you're going to get.

 

You might get a performance now and then, but when he's bad he's basically a waste of a shirt.

 

I'd say with Kuyt, he knows he might get a similar return in terms of goals/assists but even when he's stinking the place out in an attacking sense, he'll carry on doing the jobs that are asked of him.

 

I don't want to turn this into Kuyt Vs Babel though. I think though, he doesn't mind skill/unpredictability provided some of the basics are there, or where limitations are tolerable because you lose more than you gain by having a more "functional" player in the position.

 

Garcia is the obvious example. If you knew no better you'd say he's about as far away from a caricature of what a "Rafa" player is, as you can get.

 

I have to say Kuyt is every bit as inconsistent as Babel. With Kuyt you are guaranteed work rate and with Babel you guaranteed pace and power - neither may play well but you know what you get. I have to say neither have justified their fee at all.

[Red-Ed]

How did the fuck did they get to this £28m figure???

 

Not entirely sure, heard two seperate versions:

 

i) it's EUR

ii) it's also including his salary for the length of the contract

[hamstrung]

I have to say Kuyt is every bit as inconsistent as Babel. With Kuyt you are guaranteed work rate and with Babel you guaranteed pace and power - neither may play well but you know what you get. I have to say neither have justified their fee at all.

 

It goes back to my earlier point. Lately, he's not been contributing much in an attacking sense, so he's been inconsistent in that aspect, but even when he's like that you can rely on the minimum contribution he makes (defending from the front, putting in the effort, trying to do the right things etc). That isn't true of Babel.

 

Being guaranteed pace and power is all well and good, but if he's having one of those games where the ball bounces off him, its of no use whatsoever.

[JMARKH]

I doubt if Rafa would swap kuyt for ronaldo if he had the chance as it would upset the defensive part of our game.

[hamstrung]

I doubt if Rafa would swap kuyt for ronaldo if he had the chance as it would upset the defensive part of our game.

 

That's just nonsense and a pointless swipe.

 

Its kind of what you do though, isn't it?

[ToxtethTerror]

I doubt if Rafa would swap kuyt for ronaldo if he had the chance as it would upset the defensive part of our game.

 

Pointless dig really and really gets this place down.

[Brownie]

It goes back to my earlier point. Lately, he's not been contributing much in an attacking sense, so he's been inconsistent in that aspect, but even when he's like that you can rely on the minimum contribution he makes (defending from the front, putting in the effort, trying to do the right things etc). That isn't true of Babel.

 

Being guaranteed pace and power is all well and good, but if he's having one of those games where the ball bounces off him, its of no use whatsoever.

 

Would it be fair to say that Babel's 'threat' has an impact though? Even when he's having a poor game in terms of touch etc him simply being on the pitch has an affect because the opposition know he can run in behind?

 

We battered Newcastle 5-1 and outplayed Preston 2-0 with Babel on the pitch. He was generally seen as being average in those games himself yet the team seemed to have more room to operate - any chance that could be related?

 

Just putting it out there.

 

If you're a back four and you see that the Liverpool team has Benayoun and Kuyt out wide, then you would push your full backs right up because there's no threat in behind. However, if Babel is there you can't do that because of the space in behind so as a back four you have to adopt the same stance otherwise you wouldn't be in a line as four.

 

As I say, just a suggestion.

[Kevin D]

I'd be very annoyed if we sold Dirk in this transfer window.

[JMARKH]

That's just nonsense and a pointless swipe.

 

Its kind of what you do though, isn't it?

 

a bit like you then, and how do you know 110% that he would?

[George Costanza]

Dirk started the season how he left the last. The last two months and the first two months of this season, Dirk was one of our best performers. Scored some very important goals but was also playing extremely well.

 

The last couple of months he has fallen away and right now his position 'should' be jepoardy. You can't really not like Dirk, the effort he puts in is absolutely great to see but too often with him i'm afraid the quality isn't there often enough.

[stringvest]

I'm bewildered by all of this. If he was in another team, we'd be talking about if (if at all) as a Hibbert-level player. Seriously, he wouldn't appear on the radar at all. He's the sort of player that fans at lower league clubs champion, due to his 'workrate'. It's amazing how much he's overrated on here.

[hamstrung]

Would it be fair to say that Babel's 'threat' has an impact though? Even when he's having a poor game in terms of touch etc him simply being on the pitch has an affect because the opposition know he can run in behind?

 

We battered Newcastle 5-1 and outplayed Preston 2-0 with Babel on the pitch. He was generally seen as being average in those games himself yet the team seemed to have more room to operate - any chance that could be related?

 

Just putting it out there.

 

If you're a back four and you see that the Liverpool team has Benayoun and Kuyt out wide, then you would push your full backs right up because there's no threat in behind. However, if Babel is there you can't do that because of the space in behind so as a back four you have to adopt the same stance otherwise you wouldn't be in a line as four.

 

As I say, just a suggestion.

 

Maybe but I am not sure its that tangible.

 

a bit like you then, and how do you know 110% that he would?

 

Because he's not an idiot.

 

I don't 110% know he wouldn't try to prove the existence of God by spending the rest of his life on the trail of the holy grail.

 

But I am pretty sure.

[Brownie]

Maybe but I am not sure its that tangible.

 

 

 

Because he's not an idiot.

 

I don't 110% know he wouldn't try to prove the existence of God by spending the rest of his life on the trail of the holy grail.

 

But I am pretty sure.

 

I think it's tangible because it gives other players a bit more space. Opinions eh?!

 

All I know is that it's getting increasingly harder for me to watch Kuyt play.

[redheart]

If they aoffer 18m let alone 28m he is gone. Even RAFA would realise that is too good to turn down. Think who you could get for 20m+