Who exactly has Rafa 'lost'

[El Rojo]

I'm not sure I buy in completely to Moschops' post. It's certainly possible to think of games where Gerrard has been less than effective, and probably not worth his place in the starting line up, but just on merit alone he should be in the team most games. Perhaps his captaincy skills aren't so obvious, and in-yer-face as the Terrys John and Butcher, but that doesn't man they don't exist. He's certainly led by example on more than one occasion. Not many nearly men have let their team to a European Cup.

I agree that the Chelsea episodes have had a substantial effect on the club, and his standing, but you wouldn't want to leave him out of a game such as tonight's, would you?

 

And scored in European Cup, Uefa Cup, FA Cup and League Cup Finals.

 

He's really not one of the club's top 100 problems right now.

[Rashid]

I completely disagree with Moschops. Every club in Europe would want Steve Gerrard if he became available, I'd love to see him play in an attacking team. In all his career he has played under mainly GH, Erikson and Benitez all of whom have adopted a pragmatic style. On more than one occasion he has "bailed" out these managers and on more than one occasion he has bailed out team mates who are not good enough for Liverpool.

 

I think we are lucky to have him and would love to see how he would do if he didn't have to do the work of 5 men due to the deficiencies we have on the wing and up front. Maybe he would win the league - the only thing he hasn't won in his time here - and boy did he contribute to all of those trophies as much as anyone - scoring in virtually every final!

 

Also, it's funny you mention Robbie and Stevie Mac because both of those players deserved better than they got.

 

In short, I think these players aren't the problem but the only shining light in a tunnel of darkness.

[James Dean]

Gerrard's the problem for me. I know in some people's eyes he can do no wrong, and the fact that he's a world-beating talent on his day excuses any other failings, but he's never given the team any kind of consistency in all his time here, he's destabilised the whole club more than once, and some would say is still doing now on a more everyday level that makes the job of manager (whoever's doing it) that much more difficult.

 

I think in much the same way as we look back at the mid-90s now as a failure not just of Evans but of Fowler and McManaman, in 20 years people are going to think of this period in our history and wonder if Gerrard was actually at least *part* of the problem, rather than the unfortunate victim of no-one else being good enough that he's painted as now.

 

All I know is it's been ten years since the lad broke through now, and in that time I can't think of one player who he's formed an effective partnership with that other players haven't combined with better, or one manager that's consistently "brought the best out of him." It's looking increasingly like he'll end his career as a nearly man, and at some stage, you have to wonder how much of that is bad luck, and how much his own fault.

 

I also think just like that other nearly man Shearer at Newcastle, that any manager who comes in now and for the forseeable future is going to have to get used to being the second most important man at the club, and I don't think that's healthy even if all our other multitude of problems were sorted.

 

*reaches for tin hat*

 

 

 

Under the circumstances, O'Neill would have to be among the least worst options - I'm not a huge fan of the football his teams play, but I think his liking for longball is over-stated, and certainly last time round he was one of two that I'd have wanted to see replace Houllier.

 

Thing is, as you say, a) he doesn't break contracts, and b) sad reflection as it is, as employers Lerner and Villa can offer an awful lot to a manager at the moment that we certainly can't.

 

 

That's a great post and 100% spot on.

[billybonzo]

Top Post Moschops, we are less of a "team" with mbe in it.

[drewy]

I completely disagree with Moschops. Every club in Europe would want Steve Gerrard if he became available, I'd love to see him play in an attacking team. In all his career he has played under mainly GH, Erikson and Benitez all of whom have adopted a pragmatic style. On more than one occasion he has "bailed" out these managers and on more than one occasion he has bailed out team mates who are not good enough for Liverpool.

 

I think we are lucky to have him and would love to see how he would do if he didn't have to do the work of 5 men due to the deficiencies we have on the wing and up front. Maybe he would win the league - the only thing he hasn't won in his time here - and boy did he contribute to all of those trophies as much as anyone - scoring in virtually every final!

 

Also, it's funny you mention Robbie and Stevie Mac because both of those players deserved better than they got.

 

In short, I think these players aren't the problem but the only shining light in a tunnel of darkness.

 

That thing that's just flown over your head? That's Moschops post that is.

[Brownie]

Couldn't disagree more about Gerrard being a big problem. We wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful over the last few years without him.

 

Some people just won't let it lie...

[aws]

We wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful over the last few years without him.

 

Agreed but sometimes there's a tipping point at which something positive turns into a negative. Henry at Arsenal for example. Or the way Shearer has mutated from saviour to albatross.

 

Personally I'm not sure that Gerrard has reached that point yet but I suspect it's close.

[Brownie]

Agreed but sometimes there's a tipping point at which something positive turns into a negative. Henry at Arsenal for example. Or the way Shearer has mutated from saviour to albatross.

 

Personally I'm not sure that Gerrard has reached that point yet but I suspect it's close.

 

The thing with Henry was a bit different though. He was injured a lot and had a bit of a fall out with Wenger too. He was also becoming increasingly lazy as time went on.

 

Gerrard is still trying his best on the pitch and is a good captain off the pitch by all accounts, according to Rafa anyway. So I think it's a different situation.

 

I don't think Gerrard is a saint and can do no wrong, far from it. I've criticised him plenty of times in the past but I stopped looking at him as some 'working class hero' a long time ago. He's just a player, but one that we would be insane to get rid of.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Top post Moschops, I said the same thing a while back, I think it was after the first Marseille game.

 

Great player, disgraceful attitude at times. That is why he is not word class to me. Class plays as much a part as the skill in being called "A World Class Player".

 

This summer is going to be a real test for Gerrard fans, is he going to sulk again or is he going to get behind the Manager and the rest of his team mates and push on. Only time will tell. If he sulks let him go. But we control the deal, not him.

[Brownie]

Top post Moschops, I said the same thing a while back, I think it was after the first Marseille game.

 

Great player, disgraceful attitude at times. That is why he is not word class to me. Class plays as much a part as the skill in being called "A World Class Player".

 

This summer is going to be a real test for Gerrard fans, is he going to sulk again or is he going to get behind the Manager and the rest of his team mates and push on. Only time will tell. If he sulks let him go. But we control the deal, not him.

 

This summer is going to be a real test for Rafa fans, is he going to sulk again or is he going to get behind the owners and the rest of his employees and push on. Only time will tell. If he sulks let him go. But we control the deal, not him.

 

:whistle:

[Skidfingers McGonical]

This summer is going to be a real test for Rafa fans, is he going to sulk again or is he going to get behind the owners and the rest of his employees and push on. Only time will tell. If he sulks let him go. But we control the deal, not him.

 

:whistle:

 

Nice comeback Brownie. I like it.

[Mr T]

It seems obvious now that he has 'lost' these:

 

Gerrard, Carragher and Crouch.

 

I'd say the Spanish lads are behind him, Mascherano definitiely.

 

The rest are unknown unknowns.

[billybonzo]

Top post Moschops, I said the same thing a while back, I think it was after the first Marseille game.

 

Great player, disgraceful attitude at times. That is why he is not word class to me. Class plays as much a part as the skill in being called "A World Class Player".

 

This summer is going to be a real test for Gerrard fans, is he going to sulk again or is he going to get behind the Manager and the rest of his team mates and push on. Only time will tell. If he sulks let him go. But we control the deal, not him.

 

 

Spot on.

[billybonzo]

It seems obvious now that he has 'lost' these:

 

Gerrard, Carragher and Crouch.

 

I'd say the Spanish lads are behind him, Mascherano definitiely.

 

The rest are unknown unknowns.

 

 

Sell em all for me.

[Rashid]

Lucky I didn't say that Brownie, Skidfingers McGonical would have had a seizure. Rafa without Gerrard would have been sacked after his first year!

[TheHitman]

Lucky I didn't say that Brownie, Skidfingers McGonical would have had a seizure. Rafa without Gerrard would have been sacked after his first year!

 

Maybe Gerrard would of ended up at Newcastle with Owen:whistle:

[billybonzo]

In your opinion. Who'd have thought we could cope without Michael Owen, not me.

[hamstrung]

 

All I know is it's been ten years since the lad broke through now, and in that time I can't think of one player who he's formed an effective partnership with that other players haven't combined with better, or one manager that's consistently "brought the best out of him." .

 

Are you taking about in central midifled, because if not, he's certainly formed effective alliances with Owen and (by the looks of things) Torres.

 

I can see the validity in what you are saying generally though.

 

Lucky I didn't say that Brownie, Skidfingers McGonical would have had a seizure. Rafa without Gerrard would have been sacked after his first year!

 

You just don't get the whole "Liverpool way" thing in any way, shape or form do you?

[Rashid]

The thing with Henry was a bit different though. He was injured a lot and had a bit of a fall out with Wenger too. He was also becoming increasingly lazy as time went on.

 

Gerrard is still trying his best on the pitch and is a good captain off the pitch by all accounts, according to Rafa anyway. So I think it's a different situation.

 

I don't think Gerrard is a saint and can do no wrong, far from it. I've criticised him plenty of times in the past but I stopped looking at him as some 'working class hero' a long time ago. He's just a player, but one that we would be insane to get rid of.

 

I don't get this Henry comparison. Theirry Henry had superb performers alongside him in his time there. Pires, Bergkamp, Vieira, Petit, and Ljunberg to name but five. It isn't the same here with Gerrard.

 

E.g. When Vieira was there, Henry wasn't the star - the captain was - ask any of their fans.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Lucky I didn't say that Brownie, Skidfingers McGonical would have had a seizure. Rafa without Gerrard would have been sacked after his first year!

 

No I wouldn't.

 

No he wouldn't.

 

I suppose I responded the way I did to Brownie because I respect how he puts his arguments across, sometimes I even respect how you rarely put yours across.

 

Some criticism you deserve, some you don't. On your input on Rafa and how you have gone about voicing your opinion, I wish a painful long death on you.

 

Have you took the dead dog's cock comment serious this time, as that was in jest.

 

 

I don't really wish a painful slow death, the sooner better would be just as good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*In no uncertain terms do I wish Rashid was dead"

[hamstrung]

E.g. When Vieira was there, Henry wasn't the star - the captain was - ask any of their fans.

 

OK, I will.

 

Who was the star when Viera was there?

[Rashid]

You just don't get the whole "Liverpool way" thing in any way, shape or form do you?

 

The Liverpool Way is to discredit the captain and best player of the club as the "problem" especially given his contribution in that time?

 

I gather you will miss this point though.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Quality hamstrung.

[Rashid]

hamstrung - that was quality but I knew that was coming. SM - like that last post too!!

[hamstrung]

The Liverpool Way is to discredit the captain and best player of the club as the "problem" especially given his contribution in that time?

 

I gather you will miss this point though.

 

I don't think I am the one missing the point. Everything doesn't have to be black or white, yes or no all the time. Life tends to throw along shades of grey and the odd maybe.