Who exactly has Rafa 'lost'

[Turkish Delight]

 

The Times

 

February 18, 2008

 

Players see if you are a mate or a manipulator

Tony Cascarino

 

Rafael BenÍtez is not in danger of losing the Liverpool dressing-room because he’s never really won it. He is trying hard to gain the support of the players now, but it may be too late.

 

A source close to the club has told me that BenÍtez’s attitude to the players has softened recently as results have worsened, but they are not buying the idea of their manager as a friend after years in which he has kept them at arm’s length. His attempts to be ‘pally’ risk backfiring and are a sign of his increasingly vulnerable position, which could become untenable if rumours of player discontent make their way to the boardroom at a time when bad performances have put him under intense pressure.

 

I’ve seen it happen to others, and to me. One manager didn’t talk to me for six weeks then came over all chatty when an injury meant he needed me. Suddenly, I’d gone from being an employee to a friend. I was professional and did my best, but I didn’t want to bond with him. I saw through what he was doing and felt manipulated.

 

Footballers don’t mind playing under managers whom they respect more than like if there’s success and trust. But if the team are struggling, you find they’re not playing for the manager but for the club and for themselves, so they’re less sympathetic to his plight. Especially if they detect insincerity - and players always can.

 

So BenÍtez is casting around for allies and suddenly his door is open and he’s making time for small talk, when for most of his spell at Anfield he hasn’t been interested. It’s a tall order to get players on your side when you’ve been rotating them for so long. BenÍtez’s rotation system in itself has distanced him from his squad because they never know where they stand.

 

Sir Alex Ferguson is full of admiration for Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney. José Mourinho and now Avram Grant have lavished the utmost praise on John Terry and Frank Lampard. But what has BenÍtez done to build up Steven Gerrard? He’s seemed more interested in keeping his biggest player in check, as if he was almost a threat more than an asset. How many times has BenÍtez declined to give credit to Gerrard and insisted on talking about “the team” instead?

 

It’s an example of how BenÍtez has not seemed interested in managing personalities or showing genuine appreciation for the players’ efforts. He wasn’t warm enough towards them during the good times, so why should they embrace him now?

 

 

 

A manager's job isn't to be his employees' best mate. Gerrard has openly said in his biography that two of his favourite managers were Keegan and Houllier because they gave him the arm round the shoulder stuff but neither brought the best out of him as a player in the way that Benitez has. The same way in that it was Rafa who brought the best out of Carra as a player too.

 

The media will bash Benitez all they can now as they smell blood but that article is just shite.

[theRedHorse]

A manager's job isn't to be his employees' best mate. Gerrard has openly said in his biography that two of his favourite managers were Keegan and Houllier because they gave him the arm round the shoulder stuff but neither brought the best out of him as a player in the way that Benitez has. The same way in that it was Rafa who brought the best out of Carra as a player too.

 

The media will bash Benitez all they can now as they smell blood but that article is just shite.

 

Indeed.

 

And so if Rafa is trying to change (the way people on here are insisting he should) He's getting fucked off by the players because its "too late"?

 

Mindfrickingblowing.

 

Our players need to WAKE UP and realise what they have.

[Jens]

Creating 30 chances against a team who plays very deep and with 11 men behind the ball indicates the players are more dedicated than ever, IMO.

[joey54]

Gerrard still makes my blood boil, since 2004 I have never sung his name, not even after the last minute equaliser in the cup final against West Ham. The fact that Torres has made such a sensational start to his Reds career probably isnt doing his ego much good either. If Xabi redisovers his form, Lucas keeps progressing and we secure Mascherano, I'd happily invite a bidding war for him.

 

even if he signed for the Mancs???

[lawrie]

I dont know if Rafa has lost any of his players but Carra has a look like Gerrard did when he was (allegedly) sulking at having to play on the right.

[Thants]

What has Rafa lost?

YouTube - You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers

[bobhorse]

'Thierry Shearerish'

 

:smile:

 

some fair points there. If he has 'lost' Gerrard and Carra then their influence is so big in the dressing room that it must be uncomfortable in there

 

If he has lost those two then they should not be at the Club

 

 

They are Players of Liverpool Football Club and if the day has come when they pull on a Red shirt and cross the white line not 100% commited to winning then they are not fit to play for this Club

 

I can't and Wont have it that either player is less than 100% behind the Manager and to winning

 

it is just lack of confidance ontop of the troubles that has caused some (Not me to Question there commitment

[BENIRL]

Nobody wants Liverpool to do well as much as Gerrard and Carragher. Maybe they have good reason for losing faith in the Rafa and they can see that we will never win the league with Rafa in charge.

[smokinsteve]

Any excuse to give gerrard stick ..

 

He and carra cant do much more imo..

 

The problem lays with about 4 or 5 players that just aint good enough to wear the shirt...ie pennant,kewell,kuyt,voronin.

kuyt gives his all but he aint liverpool class end of....

 

Alonso and finnan havnt hit any form at all but hopefully thats just down to injuries..

 

We need a clear out but then it comes down to mega bucks unless you bring in some unknown talent or a couple of the young kids come through...

 

I dont think he has lost the players, I just think some players are not treating the liverpool shirt for what it is...........

 

But then thats football all round nowadays.

[TheHitman]

Sometimes people just can't win i don't expect the players to be smiling their not winning games. In terms of man man-management as some have already mentioned players like Gerrard, Carra and Crouch have enjoyed the best spells of their career under Rafa not forgetting Finnan and i suppose you can chuck Reina in there as well even Kewell has been given every opportunity when fit.

 

If Rafa's man-management is so bad why do players like Masch and Torres come to us specifically because of Rafa(despite knowing about rotation and Rafa's alleged aloofness). I do agree that every manager needs good staff around him for support and to bounce ideas off not yes men. This is certainly an area where i feel he has taken too much on, we all need a little bit of help. I remember Guillem Balague criticising some of the Spanish contingent brought over from Valencia who he claimed were inexperienced however i think he was quite pally with Paco so i don't know how much validity there is in that statement.

 

You don't have to like the manager as long as you respect him, on another note the media are getting a stiffy talk about Capello's style of management that seems quite similar to Rafa it's a funny old world.

[05 Milan]

This desire to be pals with your manager seems to originate from the english players. Or am I way off here?

[milerz]

Shit

 

Itandje , Voronin

 

Funny catagory...

[Moschops II]

Which players are you refering to, Dan?

 

Gerrard's the problem for me. I know in some people's eyes he can do no wrong, and the fact that he's a world-beating talent on his day excuses any other failings, but he's never given the team any kind of consistency in all his time here, he's destabilised the whole club more than once, and some would say is still doing now on a more everyday level that makes the job of manager (whoever's doing it) that much more difficult.

 

I think in much the same way as we look back at the mid-90s now as a failure not just of Evans but of Fowler and McManaman, in 20 years people are going to think of this period in our history and wonder if Gerrard was actually at least *part* of the problem, rather than the unfortunate victim of no-one else being good enough that he's painted as now.

 

All I know is it's been ten years since the lad broke through now, and in that time I can't think of one player who he's formed an effective partnership with that other players haven't combined with better, or one manager that's consistently "brought the best out of him." It's looking increasingly like he'll end his career as a nearly man, and at some stage, you have to wonder how much of that is bad luck, and how much his own fault.

 

I also think just like that other nearly man Shearer at Newcastle, that any manager who comes in now and for the forseeable future is going to have to get used to being the second most important man at the club, and I don't think that's healthy even if all our other multitude of problems were sorted.

 

*reaches for tin hat*

 

As for managers who would raise most players' levels and improve consistency, I believe that both Mourinho and O'Neill could do so...

 

Under the circumstances, O'Neill would have to be among the least worst options - I'm not a huge fan of the football his teams play, but I think his liking for longball is over-stated, and certainly last time round he was one of two that I'd have wanted to see replace Houllier.

 

Thing is, as you say, a) he doesn't break contracts, and b) sad reflection as it is, as employers Lerner and Villa can offer an awful lot to a manager at the moment that we certainly can't.

[Red Nick]

Rafa hasnt lost anyone only the Owners have lost the players and sent the club into freefall.

[ted tucker]

Whether or not he has lost some of the players they should have enough professional pride within themselves to perform, i might be naive here but surely their own personal pride should not allow themselves to become subject to some of the shit that has been written about them of late (some of it justified). I would be ashamed if it was me and be looking to prove everyone wrong.

[robslappa]

Gerrard's the problem for me. I know in some people's eyes he can do no wrong, and the fact that he's a world-beating talent on his day excuses any other failings, but he's never given the team any kind of consistency in all his time here, he's destabilised the whole club more than once, and some would say is still doing now on a more everyday level that makes the job of manager (whoever's doing it) that much more difficult.

 

I think in much the same way as we look back at the mid-90s now as a failure not just of Evans but of Fowler and McManaman, in 20 years people are going to think of this period in our history and wonder if Gerrard was actually at least *part* of the problem, rather than the unfortunate victim of no-one else being good enough that he's painted as now.

 

All I know is it's been ten years since the lad broke through now, and in that time I can't think of one player who he's formed an effective partnership with that other players haven't combined with better, or one manager that's consistently "brought the best out of him." It's looking increasingly like he'll end his career as a nearly man, and at some stage, you have to wonder how much of that is bad luck, and how much his own fault.

 

I also think just like that other nearly man Shearer at Newcastle, that any manager who comes in now and for the forseeable future is going to have to get used to being the second most important man at the club, and I don't think that's healthy even if all our other multitude of problems were sorted.

 

*reaches for tin hat*

 

 

 

Under the circumstances, O'Neill would have to be among the least worst options - I'm not a huge fan of the football his teams play, but I think his liking for longball is over-stated, and certainly last time round he was one of two that I'd have wanted to see replace Houllier.

 

Thing is, as you say, a) he doesn't break contracts, and b) sad reflection as it is, as employers Lerner and Villa can offer an awful lot to a manager at the moment that we certainly can't.

 

Good post that Chops. I certainly agree about O'Neill.

[sir roger]

Rafa hasnt lost anyone only the Owners have lost the players and sent the club into freefall.

 

Agree that the owners are the major catalyst for the season going into freefall , but the disappointing thing to me is that I would have expected a siege mentality in & around the team , but exactly the opposite seems to have happened.

[ratcatcher]

Agree that the owners are the major catalyst for the season going into freefall , but the disappointing thing to me is that I would have expected a siege mentality in & around the team , but exactly the opposite seems to have happened.

 

When someone keeps you at arms length all the time, dont be surprised if the siege mentality doesnt kick in.

[sir roger]

When someone keeps you at arms length all the time, dont be surprised if the siege mentality doesnt kick in.

 

I take your point , but I can't imagine Ferguson or Wenger having players round for Sunday lunch ( possibly some of the younger ones in Arsene's case ) , but the players pride seems to kick in.

[ted tucker]

I take your point , but I can't imagine Ferguson or Wenger having players round for Sunday lunch ( possibly some of the younger ones in Arsene's case ) , but the players pride seems to kick in.

 

 

Ferguson has had numerous fall outs with his players, he expects them to act like men or he fucks them off. Some of our players seem to be acting like children instead putting personal opinion aside and getting on with the job.

[Ged B]

Gerrard's the problem for me. I know in some people's eyes he can do no wrong, and the fact that he's a world-beating talent on his day excuses any other failings, but he's never given the team any kind of consistency in all his time here, he's destabilised the whole club more than once, and some would say is still doing now on a more everyday level that makes the job of manager (whoever's doing it) that much more difficult.

 

I think in much the same way as we look back at the mid-90s now as a failure not just of Evans but of Fowler and McManaman, in 20 years people are going to think of this period in our history and wonder if Gerrard was actually at least *part* of the problem, rather than the unfortunate victim of no-one else being good enough that he's painted as now.

 

All I know is it's been ten years since the lad broke through now, and in that time I can't think of one player who he's formed an effective partnership with that other players haven't combined with better, or one manager that's consistently "brought the best out of him." It's looking increasingly like he'll end his career as a nearly man, and at some stage, you have to wonder how much of that is bad luck, and how much his own fault.

 

I also think just like that other nearly man Shearer at Newcastle, that any manager who comes in now and for the forseeable future is going to have to get used to being the second most important man at the club, and I don't think that's healthy even if all our other multitude of problems were sorted.

 

*reaches for tin hat*

 

.

 

No tin hat needed from me, I completety agree and have been saying as much for a while. Normally followed by accusations that i'm an ungrateful bastard who should realise just how lucky I am to be able to watch 'Stevie g' every week.

Opinions ey.

[AL66GOLF]

Ferguson has had numerous fall outs with his players, he expects them to act like men or he fucks them off. Some of our players seem to be acting like children instead putting personal opinion aside and getting on with the job.

 

Ferguson has fallen out with a team of players, Leighton, McGrath, Whiteside, Ince, Kanchelskis, Stamm, Beckham even Keane eventually. When he felt they were a bad influence on or off the pitch it was goodbye. Maybe Benitez is not ruthless enough?

[aws]

Moschops - good post . Unfortunately I think it's spot on.

[Paco]

Gerrard's the problem for me. I know in some people's eyes he can do no wrong, and the fact that he's a world-beating talent on his day excuses any other failings, but he's never given the team any kind of consistency in all his time here, he's destabilised the whole club more than once, and some would say is still doing now on a more everyday level that makes the job of manager (whoever's doing it) that much more difficult.

 

I think in much the same way as we look back at the mid-90s now as a failure not just of Evans but of Fowler and McManaman, in 20 years people are going to think of this period in our history and wonder if Gerrard was actually at least *part* of the problem, rather than the unfortunate victim of no-one else being good enough that he's painted as now.

 

All I know is it's been ten years since the lad broke through now, and in that time I can't think of one player who he's formed an effective partnership with that other players haven't combined with better, or one manager that's consistently "brought the best out of him." It's looking increasingly like he'll end his career as a nearly man, and at some stage, you have to wonder how much of that is bad luck, and how much his own fault.

 

I also think just like that other nearly man Shearer at Newcastle, that any manager who comes in now and for the forseeable future is going to have to get used to being the second most important man at the club, and I don't think that's healthy even if all our other multitude of problems were sorted.

 

*reaches for tin hat*

 

 

 

Under the circumstances, O'Neill would have to be among the least worst options - I'm not a huge fan of the football his teams play, but I think his liking for longball is over-stated, and certainly last time round he was one of two that I'd have wanted to see replace Houllier.

 

Thing is, as you say, a) he doesn't break contracts, and b) sad reflection as it is, as employers Lerner and Villa can offer an awful lot to a manager at the moment that we certainly can't.

 

I see what your saying but Gerrard has won everything bar the premier league with Liverpool so calling him a nearly man is unfair.

 

he has formed some good partnerships down the years with Hamann and now with mascherano. it's true we need a certain type of midfielder who will just sit to allow Gerrard to play his best game but thats what he does best. Gerrard is all about bombing forward and he can only do that when he has someone like hamann or mascherano and sometimes even alonso who will sit and allow him to go where he likes. He still gets back in and makes the tackles and tracks back but he's mostly about getting forward and getting goals thats what we want from him.

[stringvest]

I'm not sure I buy in completely to Moschops' post. It's certainly possible to think of games where Gerrard has been less than effective, and probably not worth his place in the starting line up, but just on merit alone he should be in the team most games. Perhaps his captaincy skills aren't so obvious, and in-yer-face as the Terrys John and Butcher, but that doesn't man they don't exist. He's certainly led by example on more than one occasion. Not many nearly men have let their team to a European Cup.

 

I agree that the Chelsea episodes have had a substantial effect on the club, and his standing, but you wouldn't want to leave him out of a game such as tonight's, would you?