Who exactly has Rafa 'lost'

[Ian Sea]

I don't think there's anyone at the club who doesn't try to give his all when on the pitch. Losing the players is not about a conscious decision not to play for the manager, in my view; it's more subconscious - they're confused, lacking in confidence and out of form.

 

People always trot out some fatuous shite about "Fucking millionaires shouldn't need motivating to play the game they love". If that was the case, why else do sportsmen go through peaks and troughs of form and confidence? At the highest level, the mental side of the game has a huge impact.

 

The two key jobs a top manager has now are to sign the right players and then to get their heads right so they can give their best on the pitch. Without those two attributes, tactics and systems are about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I doubt that any player goes home of an evening and sits down thinking "I've lost faith in Rafa, I'm not going to give everything for him anymore", if for no other reason then they play in front of 45,000 people every week and they would get slaughtered - and no-one wants that.

 

I'm sick of hear Rafa coming out with the same old shit week after week, about "controlling games" and "scoring a second to kill games off" and I imagine the players are sick of it too. They would love to hear him say "lets have a real good go at Barnsley this week, lets attack them from the start and put 10 past them."

 

I think it's definitely a subconscious thing which has come about from Rafa's attitude and tactics over the last 4 years. The only way for things to change in my mind, is for him to change his philosophy or for a change in manager. In my opinion the situation is still rectifiable, and it would be really easy to do so. I do think it's highly unlikely though, as managers seem to be the most stubborn creatures on the planet, even if their stubborness eventually costs them their jobs.

[Paul]

The only way for things to change in my mind, is for him to change his philosophy or for a change in manager. In my opinion the situation is still rectifiable, and it would be really easy to do so. I do think it's highly unlikely though, as managers seem to be the most stubborn creatures on the planet, even if their stubborness eventually costs them their jobs.

Agreed. I still think he could win the players back by simply sitting down and asking them what he could do to sort it out. However, how many people in the world could be so fundamentally ego-less? Very few, in my opinion - especially in a job that usually requires a huge ego.

[Ian Sea]

Agreed. I still think he could win the players back by simply sitting down and asking them what he could do to sort it out. However, how many people in the world could be so fundamentally ego-less? Very few, in my opinion - especially in a job that usually requires a huge ego.

 

From what we have seen of Rafa in the past he's definitely not the sort of manager who will change his principles, which is why I think he won't be at the club for much longer.

 

I thought at the start of the season he had changed, we seemed to be playing more attacking football (especially away from home) and we began to have a more settled team in the league but it didn't last long for whatever reason and he soon reverted back to how he had been previously.

 

I really, really want Rafa to put his ego to one side and to change his philosophy. I love Rafa and it would be brilliant if he stayed and won us the league, but he won't if he carries on as he is. I just hope that he sees this before it's too late, but I won't hold my breath.

[Paco]

We created 31 chances on saturday albeit most of them were after they equalised. This has always been a problem under rafa and was the same under houllier. why must we go ahead and try and control the game only to commit suicide, let them back in it or go behind and then go "oh we're in a match here" then and only then do we come out and play something like premiership football.

 

oh and how many games have we created 20 plus chances and not scored or scored one? if we only have 20 million this summer I want it all to go on another quality striker. I don't know who he is but what we need is someone to hit the ground running like Torres and start banging in goals from the word go. we're clearly creating chances, we need the quality to convert them.

[chorlton]

As far as I can see , Jamie has been feted by the manager in public as much as all of the other players together. All I feel is that if a manager in work looked after me this well , I would hope that when he found himself in difficulties I would try & help , rather than looking at my shoes & giving him the 'Et Tu Brute' routine.

 

You should read my comments in the light of Jamie being my favourite player at the club for some time , hence my sadness at the situation.

 

If it's true. What suprises me most is rumours and carra. As if Carra wouldn't just tell it like he sees it. I'm dissapointed he didn't defend Rafa against the yanks, well more that he side stepped it, but if that's his gut feeling then fine as long as he gives alll for the club and for the manager which i feel he always has. The idea of a player I adore for his honesty and being forthcoming being divisive upsets me greatly. Which is why i have difficulty believing it. Stevie would no doubt just wash his hand of the whole thing, then wash them again, then once more.

[Ian Sea]

We created 31 chances on saturday albeit most of them were after they equalised. This has always been a problem under rafa and was the same under houllier. why must we go ahead and try and control the game only to commit suicide, let them back in it or go behind and then go "oh we're in a match here" then and only then do we come out and play something like premiership football.

 

oh and how many games have we created 20 plus chances and not scored or scored one? if we only have 20 million this summer I want it all to go on another quality striker. I don't know who he is but what we need is someone to hit the ground running like Torres and start banging in goals from the word go. we're clearly creating chances, we need the quality to convert them.

 

I've never understood the thinking behind that as it contradicts Rafa's beliefs on resting players. Surely we'd be better off going out and beating teams from the off, putting 3 or 4 past them and then taking 3 players off after an hour. That way we could rest the players that need it and give others the chance to impress in a game that's already won with no pressure on them.

[Moschops II]

I don't think there's anyone at the club who doesn't try to give his all when on the pitch. Losing the players is not about a conscious decision not to play for the manager, in my view; it's more subconscious - they're confused, lacking in confidence and out of form.

 

People always trot out some fatuous shite about "Fucking millionaires shouldn't need motivating to play the game they love". If that was the case, why else do sportsmen go through peaks and troughs of form and confidence? At the highest level, the mental side of the game has a huge impact.

 

The two key jobs a top manager has now are to sign the right players and then to get their heads right so they can give their best on the pitch. Without those two attributes, tactics and systems are about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

 

It's not an either/or. For as long as this has been going on, I've assumed some (most?) of the players must be sub-consciously affected by the fact we've got a lame duck as manager. I also think there's players out there who very consciously don't give a fuck, and others who have come to fall somewhere in between the two.

 

Application and commitment are still two big influences on performance, whether that sounds "fatuous" or not. Whatever Benitez's failings, the fact is, we've got "star" players at the club who have failed to find any real level of consistency throughout their careers, no matter which manager they're playing for. Why that should change now, I don't get.

 

As usual, I remain open to being blown away by people's suggestions of managers who are going to successfully motivate players who now look to me at least like serial under-achievers.

[DomL]

The players def arnt happy with something, they look tired confused and their seems to be a severe lack of will to win unlike other seasons.

 

People have been saying Gerrard and Carra havent been happy for a while so their is probably something in it.

 

They want to win the league and if they dont see Rafa doing it then their going to question it and this will reverberate around the team due to their attitude and their role within the team.

 

Many players possitions are being challenged by new players being braught in and possibly some players are feeling underminded, but if thats the case they should fuck off because Rafa has braught players of young and very good quality.

 

Better than we have had in years.

 

Personally if DIC take over then a fresh start is a must, from top to bottom.

[GOLDMEMBER]

I dont think he helps himself or the players, by his constantly strange team selections and tactics. For example the supporters know that Dirk Kuyt has been crap for weeks and desperatly sort. I mean it doesnt take a genius to figure that the players are looking at him and thinking why is he playing ahead of crouch.

People are saying that players are going through the motions well its because they know like the rest of us no matter how good, bad, or indifferent they play. They will more than likely be "rotated" the week after. It not rocket science he need to get his players together if their still HIS players, and sort this mess that is LFC out.

[Rashid]

Players openly briefing the media now?

 

The Times

 

February 18, 2008

 

Players see if you are a mate or a manipulator

Tony Cascarino

 

Rafael BenÍtez is not in danger of losing the Liverpool dressing-room because he’s never really won it. He is trying hard to gain the support of the players now, but it may be too late.

 

A source close to the club has told me that BenÍtez’s attitude to the players has softened recently as results have worsened, but they are not buying the idea of their manager as a friend after years in which he has kept them at arm’s length. His attempts to be ‘pally’ risk backfiring and are a sign of his increasingly vulnerable position, which could become untenable if rumours of player discontent make their way to the boardroom at a time when bad performances have put him under intense pressure.

 

I’ve seen it happen to others, and to me. One manager didn’t talk to me for six weeks then came over all chatty when an injury meant he needed me. Suddenly, I’d gone from being an employee to a friend. I was professional and did my best, but I didn’t want to bond with him. I saw through what he was doing and felt manipulated.

 

Footballers don’t mind playing under managers whom they respect more than like if there’s success and trust. But if the team are struggling, you find they’re not playing for the manager but for the club and for themselves, so they’re less sympathetic to his plight. Especially if they detect insincerity - and players always can.

 

So BenÍtez is casting around for allies and suddenly his door is open and he’s making time for small talk, when for most of his spell at Anfield he hasn’t been interested. It’s a tall order to get players on your side when you’ve been rotating them for so long. BenÍtez’s rotation system in itself has distanced him from his squad because they never know where they stand.

 

Sir Alex Ferguson is full of admiration for Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney. José Mourinho and now Avram Grant have lavished the utmost praise on John Terry and Frank Lampard. But what has BenÍtez done to build up Steven Gerrard? He’s seemed more interested in keeping his biggest player in check, as if he was almost a threat more than an asset. How many times has BenÍtez declined to give credit to Gerrard and insisted on talking about “the team” instead?

 

It’s an example of how BenÍtez has not seemed interested in managing personalities or showing genuine appreciation for the players’ efforts. He wasn’t warm enough towards them during the good times, so why should they embrace him now?

 

[Karl_b]

If any of that is true then Rafa may be doing what Paul suggested on another thread and putting his ego to one side and getting the players to talk to him, tell him what's wrong, what he, and they, can do to change the situation.

 

It could work both ways.

[05 Milan]

Oh poor little Steven Gerrard, why hasn't anyone recognized that the one thing holding him back is lack of praise. I'm sure his performances would be a lot better if someone made him aware of how good he is.

 

What a fucking crock of shite.

[ScouseAndy]

I'd love to be that naive.

 

Not naive stating how it should be.

[GOLDMEMBER]

Oh poor little Steven Gerrard, why hasn't anyone recognized that the one thing holding him back is lack of praise. I'm sure his performances would be a lot better if someone made him aware of how good he is.

 

What a fucking crock of shite.

 

Im poor old liccle stevin gerrard, if no-one tells me how good i am im taking my ball home and cry, maybe the team from wondon will want me........

[drewy]

At the time I refused to believe that losing Pako would have any great bearing on the season ahead.

 

I'm still unsure as to the direct impact it's had but it surely can't be discounted as a major factor, can it?

 

He supposedly had a rapport with the players, something Rafa's never allegedly had.

[Paul]

It's not an either/or. For as long as this has been going on, I've assumed some (most?) of the players must be sub-consciously affected by the fact we've got a lame duck as manager. I also think there's players out there who very consciously don't give a fuck, and others who have come to fall somewhere in between the two.

 

Application and commitment are still two big influences on performance, whether that sounds "fatuous" or not. Whatever Benitez's failings, the fact is, we've got "star" players at the club who have failed to find any real level of consistency throughout their careers, no matter which manager they're playing for. Why that should change now, I don't get.

 

As usual, I remain open to being blown away by people's suggestions of managers who are going to successfully motivate players who now look to me at least like serial under-achievers.

 

Which players are you refering to, Dan?

 

As for managers who would raise most players' levels and improve consistency, I believe that both Mourinho and O'Neill could do so. The former is not someone I'd want to see at our club, but I'd be happy enough to see O'Neill given a go. Despite the fact that he's universally dismissed by many Reds, he has consistently improved teams and players way beyond their previous level and they have consistently fallen back after he's gone. He plays fast, attacking football and I believe he'd improve this squad.

 

Clearly there would be huge question marks around his top flight and European experience as well as his ability to handle big budgets and players, but then there are with any manager and I think he would do the job well (who could foresee Erikkson's renaissance as a manager at City, for example?).

 

There isn't any manager who immediately makes me feel excited (but maybe that's because I'm still so disappointed that Rafa has been unable to do what I so desperately wanted him to do). However, my head tells me that O'Neill would be a decent choice. That said, I doubt we could get him as he famously never breaks a contract.

[Dirk]

At the time I refused to believe that losing Pako would have any great bearing on the season ahead.

 

I'm still unsure as to the direct impact it's had but it surely can't be discounted as a major factor, can it?

 

He supposedly had a rapport with the players, something Rafa's never allegedly had.

 

Same here but the at the time I was refusing to believe it, it had been a few days since Pako's departure and I fully expected Rafa to be allowed to install another assistant manager but that was vetoed by the sound of it.

[Paul]

Same here but the at the time I was refusing to believe it, it had been a few days since Pako's departure and I fully expected Rafa to be allowed to install another assistant manager but that was vetoed by the sound of it.

 

Aye - I'm sure it has been a factor and it's a fucking travesty Rafa hasn't been allowed to bring Sammy Lee in, if that's who he wanted. Another example of the way those cunts have shafted him.

[Rashid]

We are going round and round in circles.... looking for new excuses every day. Sammi Lee or wheoever should not matter - there is no fucking way these players should be fighting with Everton (again) in the league, or getting knocked out at home to Barnsley. Period.

[drewy]

We are going round and round in circles.... looking for new excuses every day. Sammi Lee or wheoever should not matter - there is no fucking way these players should be fighting with Everton (again) in the league, or getting knocked out at home to Barnsley. Period.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me, I hadn't looked at it from that angle.

[kop]

We are going round and round in circles.... looking for new excuses every day. Sammi Lee or wheoever should not matter - there is no fucking way these players should be fighting with Everton (again) in the league, or getting knocked out at home to Barnsley. Period.

 

Some do, but others, like myself, still stick to the original "excuse". That be the fact that we have a budged good enough to fight for the 4th spot. If we manage it, then fine. If not, then I too will have a look at wether or not Rafa is the man.

 

And why shouldn't we be fighting with Everton for the 4th spot? The point is that we will fight them, and we will win the fight. Saying we shouldn't be fighting with them is something I just don't understand. They, and 19 other teams, are in the same fight.

 

Now you can go back to your "but we're Liverpool FC FFS!" argumentation, which infact is the real "round and round in circles" - way of looking at things.

[aws]

Which players are you refering to, Dan?

 

As for managers who would raise most players' levels and improve consistency, I believe that both Mourinho and O'Neill could do so. The former is not someone I'd want to see at our club, but I'd be happy enough to see O'Neill given a go. Despite the fact that he's universally dismissed by many Reds, he has consistently improved teams and players way beyond their previous level and they have consistently fallen back after he's gone. He plays fast, attacking football and I believe he'd improve this squad.

 

Clearly there would be huge question marks around his top flight and European experience as well as his ability to handle big budgets and players, but then there are with any manager and I think he would do the job well (who could foresee Erikkson's renaissance as a manager at City, for example?).

 

There isn't any manager who immediately makes me feel excited (but maybe that's because I'm still so disappointed that Rafa has been unable to do what I so desperately wanted him to do). However, my head tells me that O'Neill would be a decent choice. That said, I doubt we could get him as he famously never breaks a contract.

 

I'm not convinced by O'Neill but he's the only one around who we should even be considering bearing in mind that any incoming foreign manager will have his cards marked by the media and large sections of our "support" before he walks through the door.

[WaltonRed]

if we get a new man and he is foreign he will have an assistant ala Thommo on Ged thrust on them I think. Someone with Liverpool connections I think.

[Big Ig]

Carra's time's running out, he's desperate for the premiership, and he's seen similar signs before with GH. IF he isn't backing Rafa, then that'll be why.

[aws]

There's no saying Carra would get a regular game under a new boss though, sad as it would be to see such an inspirational figure drop down the pecking order. It's a bit early to tell yet, but I can see Agger and Skrtel as first choice next season, and that's assuming a new boss doesn't bring in one of his own favourites too.

 

Sometimes you've got to be careful you don't get what you wish for.