Our defensive problems – structural or simply personal errors?

[JustTosh]

According to the Echo yesterday BR apparently said: "--- but we conceeded poor goals.It isn't so much structurally. It's just mistakes or decision-making that cost us."

 

I beg to differ. IMO it’s very much a structural problem. The space we let Swansea have in front of our 4 back line in the first half was huge. Where’s our midfield? Isn’t it supposed to be the midfielders job to close down opposition and pressure them? As we could all se they’re not doing it.  When they don’t, what’s our defensive line supposed to do? Press and leave a hole in the line for a quick attacker to exploit? Or hold the line and let a player like Shelvey have all the time in the world release a powerful shot? Hell, if he wanted to, Jonjo had time to shine his boots before shooting.

Against top opposition we’ve been able to close that space in front of our defensive line. It seems to me we can thank the defensive contribution from our front men for that. Against top opposition we look OK defensively. Against Stoke, Swansea, Fulham, Villa we look dire to say the least. Arsenal can’t create chances at against us. Swansea, Fulham and Stoke create plenty. It’s a bit weird isn’t it?

 

We can’t go on hoping our attackers will continue to cancel out 3 goals by scoring 4 each match. We need to sort this out. Now! Unfortunately, with the line-up we’re currently using we won’t do that.

 

Until Lucas returns we need to have Allen in our team alongside Gerrard to sew things together in midfield with Hendo in front of them. Coutinho or Sterling has to make way. Well, that IS a structural change.

 

I think BR is doing a wonderful job for us and I’d like no other in his position. But I do think it will cost us dearly if BR continues to blame individual errors rather than address the problem.

 

IMO the problem IS structural and very much the reason for the personal errors. It’s not the other way around. What do you think? Is Brendan wrong about this one?

 

Cheers,

Tom

We’re in with a shout for the title. With a player like Mascherano in our team we’d win it at a canter.

[Killjoy]

I think you are spot on.

[Jairzinho]

I think you're right as well, but I think Rodgers has decided that his best bet of getting short term success  (this season) with us is to concentrate on putting out as attacking a team as possible every week.

 

It would very difficult to change things sufficiently, outside a transfer window, with only two thirds of a season left.

 

We have a keeper who doesn't command his box, fullbacks with very little positional awareness, and the only defensive midfielder at the club is injured. All of which makes the job of the centre backs incredibly difficult. But we're fucking lethal going forward. So, for now, we might as well put all our eggs in that particular basket. Certainly exciting to watch.

 

I think things could change next season. A lot will depend on whether or not Suarez stays, and also how many of the senior players (certainly of the last few years or so), like Johnson and Agger, will go.

 

We're a million miles away from the patient, possession based football that I'd imagine most people expected to see as the long term vision of Rodgers here.

[G Richards]

I see five main reasons for our defensive problems, in no particular order:

 

1. Structure - the team has an attacking bias. Ideally we'd be top scorers and would also have the tightest defence, but that is not what we have. We are outscoring teams but the payoff is a little less solidity. We could have an additional midfielder and we could choose to make it a bit more compact, but it's not what the manager is doing, and I for one am loving how many goals we are scoring. 

 

2. Goalkeeper - needs to be more commanding in his box. 

 

3. Personell - we have not had a settled back four, much less a settled defensive pairing. Forming an understanding with the players close by is key, and it is harder to do that if it keeps chopping and changing. 

 

4. Coaching - the defenders would benefit from being coached better as a unit. This might be linked to having a settled back four, but I get the sense that we are not operating as a unit sometimes. 

 

5. Individual mistakes - this will always happen, but it seems we are doing a bit more of this than normal. It needs to be cut out. 

 

 

We can improve in most of these areas and I fully expect us to in time. In terms of structure, I see us continuing with an attacking bias, though I suspect it might be adjusted slightly with, for example, switching Allen for Coutinho, especially in away games, or the tougher games at home, where we need to get more of a grip on the middle. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I don't think we have defensive problems. Aside from the Toure pass to Anichebe, I think a lot of the goals we've conceded in the past 5/6 games have largely been down to bad luck, or rare individual errors. The Swansea game was a one off anomaly.

 

It was only recently that we kept a clean sheet against Everton and restricted Arsenal to one goal, a penalty.

[RedRazor]

According to the Echo yesterday BR apparently said: "--- but we conceeded poor goals.It isn't so much structurally. It's just mistakes or decision-making that cost us."

 

I beg to differ. IMO it’s very much a structural problem. The space we let Swansea have in front of our 4 back line in the first half was huge. Where’s our midfield? Isn’t it supposed to be the midfielders job to close down opposition and pressure them? As we could all se they’re not doing it.  When they don’t, what’s our defensive line supposed to do? Press and leave a hole in the line for a quick attacker to exploit? Or hold the line and let a player like Shelvey have all the time in the world release a powerful shot? Hell, if he wanted to, Jonjo had time to shine his boots before shooting.

 

Against top opposition we’ve been able to close that space in front of our defensive line. It seems to me we can thank the defensive contribution from our front men for that. Against top opposition we look OK defensively. Against Stoke, Swansea, Fulham, Villa we look dire to say the least. Arsenal can’t create chances at against us. Swansea, Fulham and Stoke create plenty. It’s a bit weird isn’t it?

 

We can’t go on hoping our attackers will continue to cancel out 3 goals by scoring 4 each match. We need to sort this out. Now! Unfortunately, with the line-up we’re currently using we won’t do that.

 

Until Lucas returns we need to have Allen in our team alongside Gerrard to sew things together in midfield with Hendo in front of them. Coutinho or Sterling has to make way. Well, that IS a structural change.

 

I think BR is doing a wonderful job for us and I’d like no other in his position. But I do think it will cost us dearly if BR continues to blame individual errors rather than address the problem.

 

IMO the problem IS structural and very much the reason for the personal errors. It’s not the other way around. What do you think? Is Brendan wrong about this one?

 

Cheers,

Tom

We’re in with a shout for the title. With a player like Mascherano in our team we’d win it at a canter.

I'm with BR on this but the point you make that this system needs the midfield to get back and provide cover is well made. If they don't work backwards as well as forwards then players like Shelvey will get the time and space to hurt us. IMO they all switched off at 2-0 and didn't get going again until Allen appeared.

 

I think it is more about the players getting used to the change in the system rather than the system being at fault. When it breaks down I think they all panic a bit. And if the midfield are thirty yards away they panic a lot.

 

I am not sure that Lucas has a place in the team anymore. Maybe as cover for Gerrard but I can't see him fitting into any other role. 

 

You are right though that if we don't get it sorted it will probably cost us.

[BCM]

A by product of being so attack minded is that we leave gaps and little protection for the defence, so for me its structural.

I also believe Mignolet needs to command his 18 yard box a hell of a lot better, he's like a timid mouse around the box, and his defenders have not a clue what he wants or what he is going to do.

[Jonjo Baldy]

I think it's 10-15% structural because we are so attack minded as mentioned, so naturally we will be a little exposed in a league like the EPL.

 

But a large part of defensive woes has been down to individual errors. I would also go on to say that we don't have the correct type of personnel in defence for the way Rodgers wants to play and likes to setup his defence. 

[Jose Jones]

Mostly down to not having a settled combination due to injuries for me.  I think we haven't been able to pick the same defence for more than 2 games in a row this season.  This has caused defenders to be less confident in what they are doing, and led to mistakes.

 

We're also obviously pretty attacking when we play Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho all at the same time.  I am also under the impression that since Gerrard moved to the quarterback role we have conceded a few more.

 

I reckon if we'd played a fairly settled back four with Agger or Skrtel partnering Sakho, then Enrique and Johnson at fullback we would have conceded a fair few less playing in the exactly the same manner.  

 

Which says maybe Rodgers should have altered the tactics slightly knowing we've had an unsettled defence, but also that there's nothing wrong with it in the long run.

[Paco]

I think he ll change it this weekend.

 

he ll either start allen for coutinho or sterling or he might go 3 at the back again.

 

think I d be happier if he just continued with the 424 and fuck them all

[Megadrive Man]

Its a really tough call because if you drop either Sterling or Coutinho you lose that creativity and goal threat, so although we'd be better defensively we may struggle to score.

 

I think its more to do with players holding their position in midfield, and players making bad mistakes.

 

Against Swansea  at times it seemed although we were playing a 5-1-4 formation with Gerrard so deep and Coutinho forward. It means that Henderson has an impossible amount to do. The three of them need to be closer together.

 

However If you look at the last seven league goals we conceded, four are clear individual errors.

 

Gerrard giving the penalty away in the Arsenal game.

Toure against West Brom and Fulham.

Skrtel giving the penalty away against Swansea.

 

The second goal vs Fulham was a communication error between Skrtel, Flannagan and Mignolet too.

 

Personally I agree more with Rodgers. We need to cut out the mistakes. We should stick with this formation and bring Allen on if we need to try and  close out a game. 

[Jose Jones]

Its a really tough call because if you drop either Sterling or Coutinho you lose that creativity and goal threat, so although we'd be better defensively we may struggle to score.

 

I think its more to do with players holding their position in midfield, and players making bad mistakes.

 

Against Swansea  at times it seemed although we were playing a 5-1-4 formation with Gerrard so deep and Coutinho forward. It means that Henderson has an impossible amount to do. The three of them need to be closer together.

 

However If you look at the last seven league goals we conceded, four are clear individual errors.

 

Gerrard giving the penalty away in the Arsenal game.

Toure against West Brom and Fulham.

Skrtel giving the penalty away against Swansea.

 

The second goal vs Fulham was a communication error between Skrtel, Flannagan and Mignolet too.

 

Personally I agree more with Rodgers. We need to cut out the mistakes. We should stick with this formation and bring Allen on if we need to try and  close out a game. 

 

Johnson losing Bony from the freekick against Swansea as well.  

[Trucker Paddy]

A lot of it has to do with Agger is fuckin shit

[KopOut]

Its a really tough call because if you drop either Sterling or Coutinho you lose that creativity and goal threat, so although we'd be better defensively we may struggle to score.

 

I think its more to do with players holding their position in midfield, and players making bad mistakes.

 

Against Swansea at times it seemed although we were playing a 5-1-4 formation with Gerrard so deep and Coutinho forward. It means that Henderson has an impossible amount to do. The three of them need to be closer together.

 

However If you look at the last seven league goals we conceded, four are clear individual errors.

 

Gerrard giving the penalty away in the Arsenal game.

Toure against West Brom and Fulham.

Skrtel giving the penalty away against Swansea.

 

The second goal vs Fulham was a communication error between Skrtel, Flannagan and Mignolet too.

 

Personally I agree more with Rodgers. We need to cut out the mistakes. We should stick with this formation and bring Allen on if we need to try and close out a game.

Allen has struggled in a defensive role, like Hendo has. They're attack minded players. Gerrard cant resist getting forward, even now.

 

I think we need more discipline in midfield. Yes, theres plenty of skill, and style, but, we need to hold back when its appropriate.

 

Those long inch perfect passes to Sturridge from Stevie, Coutinho, Stirling and even Hendo, have been fired from halfway, meaning the players are still in deeper mid positions, and able to cover. They've resulted in goals, so we dont need to be too reckless in attack.

 

Everybody pushing forward to show what they've got may well show ambition and spirit, but it does leave us exposed. Allen came on V Swansea and started pushing forward too - his natural instinct.

 

I think our mentality is too skewed to offense, and it gets us into trouble.

[Barnesey]

A lot of sense has already been said here but it is also true that the way to play against us is to push your front 3 high against our back line. Swansea did it well but it cost them at the back. Southampton did it better and beat us comfortably.

 

We seem to struggle to get the ball into the next level when pressured in this way; teams that back off give us more time and space at the back and we kill teams with our front 4.

 

Swansea worked very hard to give their players options at the back; if Sterling, Coutinho and Henderson did this more consistently and created more opportunities to receive the ball, we would be a lot more solid defensively.

 

I will watch Satdee's game with interest; I hope BR has identified the issue.