Fucking scumbags.

[aws]

Section - I'm agreeing with you. We need to tackle this problem now and tackle it hard. If we don't there'll be a far bigger authoritarian backlash in the years to come when the "man in the street" is so pissed off that repression will be welcomed.

[col06]

Throwing a few little stones at him or something I can imagine but setting fire to someone!

 

or leaving the guy alone full stop

[Stu Monty]

I take the points, and I'm not advocating some kind of ball and chain style shit by any means, just some authority.

 

I've said this many times but I'll say it again, we don't have a crime problem in Britain, what we have is a gobshite problem.

 

Colombia has a crime problem, South Africa has a crime problem, the USA has a crime problem, because they're filled with literally millions of young men who're trapped in a cycle of poverty from which they can quite simply never escape by conventional means, so they turn to gangs, drugs, robbery, all the rest of it.

 

That level of despair simply doesn't exist in this country IMO. These little 16-17 year old scrotes who wander the likes of Norris Green with meat cleavers could have it all if they wanted. Looking after 'disaffected youth' is big business in Liverpool, it's a real money spinner, they could have plumbing apprenticeships, fucking 'hip hop' sessions coming out of their arses if they so desired - and be paid £30 a week for doing so.

 

But they don't, they're following an ideal, an ideal which glorifies the rejection of authority, and which KNOWS it can not be touched by anyone because everyone has their fucking hands tied.

 

Maybe some form of national service is the only answer, because the teaching profession no longer had the authority to deal with them (and nor should it have to) and the parents are probably 2nd generation human flotsam, so maybe they need to have a sense of right and wrong imprinted upon their heads with a boot?

 

I'm really not confident in national service being the answer. Taking fucked up lads and sending them off to kill people, in what will almost certainly be a chaotic and virtually ruleless theatre, is something that is pretty dodgy. That said, I don't see any reason why some form of military training (in the way that they break you down and build you to be driven by completely different desires) could not be applied and used to make people useful domestically. I suppose the issue there is that if you're turning 500,000 scrotes into a public workforce then that is parts of the economy closing off to private enterprise.

 

It obviously isn't simple but like I say when people want to hang rapists: if your production machine keeps churning out square beach balls then maybe you need to look at the process the raw materials are going through to become that way and change it; instead of just keeping it the same and torching all the fucked up balls.

[Section_31]

I'm really not confident in national service being the answer. Taking fucked up lads and sending them off to kill people, in what will almost certainly be a chaotic and virtually ruleless theatre, is something that is pretty dodgy. That said, I don't see any reason why some form of military training (in the way that they break you down and build you to be driven by completely different desires) could not be applied and used to make people useful domestically. I suppose the issue there is that if you're turning 500,000 scrotes into a public workforce then that is parts of the economy closing off to private enterprise.

 

It obviously isn't simple but like I say when people want to hang rapists: if your production machine keeps churning out square beach balls then maybe you need to look at the process the raw materials are going through to become that way and change it; instead of just keeping it the same and torching all the fucked up balls.

 

God no, I wouldn't either. Maybe not even military training, but something were hard and disciplined men with authority are given the chance to go to town on a few of these little bastards, and I don't mean with their fists. I bet half these lads are secretly wishing someone would grab them and tell them what to do with their lives as I imagine paternal absenteism plays a massive part in the damage done. Unfortunately, while our society continues to have its laws set by people who live in high-walled Buckinghamshire pads, serious upheval - and that's what is needed - won't happen.

 

I went out with the fire brigade once on a few jobs, and at one these firecrews were trying to put a bommie out, but this lad kept riding his bike over the hose trying to take the piss. These two PCSOs were like "Now now you kids!" and the fireman just looked at me pissed off. At the next stop we got out and another PCSO comes up and goes "watch youselves someone's just thrown a bottle at us." Then he stood there poking around in the bushes with a torch while some gang of adults and kids stood on the corner sniggering.

 

Another time in youth court, some lad had been done for shoplifting, he got fined £30 (could actually have been £10, I remember it shocked me) and his youth rep said he didn't have a job, so the magistrate said his mum would pay it and he'd have to repay her with jobs around the house, then he said "Your mum loves you, you need to repay her love" The lad turned and walked out with a smirk on his face.

 

And I remember thinking "That smirk, is how it starts."

[aws]

 

It obviously isn't simple but like I say when people want to hang rapists: if your production machine keeps churning out square beach balls then maybe you need to look at the process the raw materials are going through to become that way and change it; instead of just keeping it the same and torching all the fucked up balls.

 

I'd go along with this but unfortunately it's a strategm which will take more time (and money) than is currently available. It would take at least two generations starting from a position when there was virtually unanimous acceptance that it was the right way forward.

 

In the meantime the absence of respect has to be managed by fear of retribution.

[Section_31]

DUBOIS

(Cont.)

You---Suppose you merely scolded

your puppy, never punished him, let

him go on making messes in the

house . . . and occasionally locked

him up on an outbuilding but soon

let him back into the house with a

warning not to do it again. Then

one day you notice that he is now a

grown dog and Still not

housebroken---whereupon you whip

out a gun and shoot him dead.

Comment, please?

 

 

RICO

Why . . . that's the craziest way

to raise a dog I ever heard of!

 

 

DUBOIS

I agree. Or a child. Whose fault

would it be?

 

 

RICO

Uh . . . why, mine, I guess.

 

 

DUBOIS

Again, I agree. But I'm not

guessing.

[Stu Monty]

Very true Section.

[Anubis]

Maybe some form of national service is the only answer, because the teaching profession no longer had the authority to deal with them (and nor should it have to) and the parents are probably 2nd generation human flotsam, so maybe they need to have a sense of right and wrong imprinted upon their heads with a boot?

I don't think it'll work Sec. As Mark Thomas once said about boot camps, the last thing we need are physically fit ninja burglars.

 

We do have a gobshite problem, and it is set to get worse unless we address it more drastically. Over the nearly 16 years I've dealt with the youth court the offenders have gradually become more and more amoral. We have packs of feral kids with no moral compass, not even the 'moral' compass more senior criminals employ as to what types of offences you carry out (ie. not mugging old ladies, etc). These lads have no boundries, and a crime like this is just one more piece of evidence of it. And what is worse than the fact they exist is the fact that they're breeding the next, even more feral, generation.

 

What we need is to take that away from them, by chemical castration or some other method (licenced parenting?), so that, in effect, they die out. I'm pretty liberal, near approaching Monty proportions, but I've long been worried about this. It's a growing problem and nobody seems to address it.

[Section_31]

I don't think it'll work Sec. As Mark Thomas once said about boot camps, the last thing we need are physically fit ninja burglars.

 

We do have a gobshite problem, and it is set to get worse unless we address it more drastically. Over the nearly 16 years I've dealt with the youth court the offenders have gradually become more and more amoral. We have packs of feral kids with no moral compass, not even the 'moral' compass more senior criminals employ as to what types of offences you carry out (ie. not mugging old ladies, etc). These lads have no boundries, and a crime like this is just one more piece of evidence of it. And what is worse than the fact they exist is the fact that they're breeding the next, even more feral, generation.

 

What we need is to take that away from them, by chemical castration or some other method (licensed parenting?), so that, in effect, they die out. I'm pretty liberal, near approaching Monty proportions, but I've long been worried about this. It's a growing problem and nobody seems to address it.

 

You're probably the most qualified on here to assess the reasons behind this, would you say shit parents is the only factor or is a large part of it down to the justice system being dysfunctional?

 

Also, while I agree the boot camp setup isn't the most preferable, as aws says, it could be a desperate measure for a desperate time. The positive thing is that the minds of young lads are incredibly mailable, the army itself is proof of this. In the space of a few weeks, with the correct prompting, they can so alter a lad's psychological profile that he no longer gives a shit about how he's perceived by the outside world, but only by his peers. He judges himself on a new set of rules, such as how well he marches, how shiny his boots are etc.

 

Couldn't that philosophy be adopted, at least as a short term sticking plaster?

 

At the end of the day, young lads are waiting to be told what to do. When it's not their parent (mainly their dad) they'll let stronger boys do the talking, usually in a gang setup. That voice needs to be replaced - by the state's if necessary.

[Stu Monty]

You're probably the most qualified on here to assess the reasons behind this, would you say shit parents is the only factor or is a large part of it down to the justice system being dysfunctional?

 

Also, while I agree the boot camp setup isn't the most preferable, as aws says, it could be a desperate measure for a desperate time. The positive thing is that the minds of young lads are incredibly mailable, the army itself is proof of this. In the space of a few weeks, with the correct prompting, they can so alter a lad's psychological profile that he no longer gives a shit about how he's perceived by the outside world, but only by his peers. He judges himself on a new set of rules, such as how well he marches, how shiny his boots are etc.

 

Couldn't that philosophy be adopted, at least as a short term sticking plaster?

 

At the end of the day, young lads are waiting to be told what to do. When it's not their parent (mainly their dad) they'll let stronger boys do the talking, usually in a gang setup. That voice needs to be replaced - by the state's if necessary.

 

There's a good scene in the West Wing where they're talking about gangs and dysfunction and Charlie Young says: "Do you think these guys are walking around going 'Damn, I never made anything of my life', are they hell, they're saying "Man, I'm in a gang!"

 

It gives them purpose and stature that they sometimes otherwise lack. That's their idea of achievement.

[lostinspace1970]

This sort of thing is obviously horrible, but if you look at contemporary reports from (say) 100 years ago, you'll see things were even worse.

 

The modern language and curse words notwithstanding, your rant about the decline in moral standards could honestly have been written at any time in the past 1,000 years. In fact, I'm sure I read something from the 1500s or 1600s along exactly those lines.

 

Exactly right......frightening to think whats coming down the tracks a hundred years from now. Thank Jebus I wont be around to see it

[King Emlyn]

Section 31 ruling on law and order as per usual.

[paddyberger15]

Exactly right......frightening to think whats coming down the tracks a hundred years from now. Thank Jebus I wont be around to see it

 

Is right. These motherfuckers had it nailed on over 40 years ago...

 

[YOUTUBE]_Uw7phR9ucA[/YOUTUBE]

[Anubis]

You're probably the most qualified on here to assess the reasons behind this, would you say shit parents is the only factor or is a large part of it down to the justice system being dysfunctional?

 

Where youths are concerned, a mixture. The Youth Offending Service, in my view, is way too lenient on young offenders. The YOT officers tend to be very idealistic people who believe they can make a difference to the lies of young people. And occasionally they can. But many of today's youngsters also see them as soft touches. Unlike the Probation Service (who are strict with offenders and won't mollycoddle them) the YO service will run around after them, do home visits, give them too many chances, etc. When youths turn 18 and offend the Probation Service comes as a shock to the system.

 

The trouble with parenting is that many parents are themselves poorly educated and ineffectual, not to mention totally inappropriate with their children. It is not uncommon to find that young offenders come from backgrounds where the parents have shown little interest in their upbringing or stimulation/education, where the parents see nothing wrong in swearing in front of/at the kids, or show aggression towards the children or others. Quite often they are seperated, and there may be serveral siblings all with different fathers. Discipline is usually non-existant, and youths haven't had boundries set for them. Usually the opposite so mum has a quiet life. And some parents actually validate the behaviour and defend the youths no matter what. And these youths look set to repeat the cycle.

 

Occasionally, you do find a single mum who's done everything possible, but is actually frightened of their 12-13yr old who is bigger than them.

 

I think there is a lot to be said for the breakdown of the stable family unit (and the alarming regularity with which parents fail to use contraception!).

 

Also, while I agree the boot camp setup isn't the most preferable, as aws says, it could be a desperate measure for a desperate time. The positive thing is that the minds of young lads are incredibly mailable, the army itself is proof of this. In the space of a few weeks, with the correct prompting, they can so alter a lad's psychological profile that he no longer gives a shit about how he's perceived by the outside world, but only by his peers. He judges himself on a new set of rules, such as how well he marches, how shiny his boots are etc.

 

Couldn't that philosophy be adopted, at least as a short term sticking plaster?

 

At the end of the day, young lads are waiting to be told what to do. When it's not their parent (mainly their dad) they'll let stronger boys do the talking, usually in a gang setup. That voice needs to be replaced - by the state's if necessary.

 

My concern about boot camp is that yes, it can have an effect, but they'll only have to attend for a short period. The Army has the advantage of taking people for several years service. Boot camp would last a couple of months at most, after which these lads would be back on the street in the same situation. I think any effect it had would be gone just a short time after they've left. We need longer term intervention, not sticking plaster.

[Unrighteous]

SM is ruling the thread, at the moment. Good stuff.

[Section_31]

Where youths are concerned, a mixture. The Youth Offending Service, in my view, is way too lenient on young offenders. The YOT officers tend to be very idealistic people who believe they can make a difference to the lies of young people. And occasionally they can. But many of today's youngsters also see them as soft touches. Unlike the Probation Service (who are strict with offenders and won't mollycoddle them) the YO service will run around after them, do home visits, give them too many chances, etc. When youths turn 18 and offend the Probation Service comes as a shock to the system.

 

The trouble with parenting is that many parents are themselves poorly educated and ineffectual, not to mention totally inappropriate with their children. It is not uncommon to find that young offenders come from backgrounds where the parents have shown little interest in their upbringing or stimulation/education, where the parents see nothing wrong in swearing in front of/at the kids, or show aggression towards the children or others. Quite often they are seperated, and there may be serveral siblings all with different fathers. Discipline is usually non-existant, and youths haven't had boundries set for them. Usually the opposite so mum has a quiet life. And some parents actually validate the behaviour and defend the youths no matter what. And these youths look set to repeat the cycle.

 

Occasionally, you do find a single mum who's done everything possible, but is actually frightened of their 12-13yr old who is bigger than them.

 

I think there is a lot to be said for the breakdown of the stable family unit (and the alarming regularity with which parents fail to use contraception!).

 

 

 

My concern about boot camp is that yes, it can have an effect, but they'll only have to attend for a short period. The Army has the advantage of taking people for several years service. Boot camp would last a couple of months at most, after which these lads would be back on the street in the same situation. I think any effect it had would be gone just a short time after they've left. We need longer term intervention, not sticking plaster.

 

Boss post.

 

I think family and community breakdown are the main drivers behind this, but I think the reason it's never openly discussed in this country is because anyone with a brain knows the drivers behind the breakdown are the philosophies around which our society is built.

 

I reckon it's no coincidence that the country in Western Europe which so resembles the USA in terms of gang culture, violent crime, family and community breakdown and drug use, is the country which has so embraced it's values - i.e putting the individual at the centre of the world.

 

I also concede that the structure of our welfare state adds to the problem ( I have two cousins currently engaged in a race to see who can have the most kids and glean the most attention from my aunty, neither have worked a day in their lives and depend on council housing, maybe if that safety net wasn't so easy to access, they'd close their legs a bit more often, or stay closer to their families and keep a boyfriend for longer than a year - because it'd be the only option)

 

But I'm more concerned with the ideals behind it - in many ways the people who choose to exist on benefits still embrace the unbridled consumer values outlined above, but they're just not prepared to work for them - but the concept of 'me me me, fucking me' is still going strong.

 

I've often wondered why the Chinese communities in the UK are conspicuous by their absence when it comes to gang violence and youth crime, seeing as they've been here longer than any other ethnic minority group and are subject to the same pressures presumably (I'm not including organised crime in this, as that's a whole different phenomenon) and it could be because of their multi-generational households and strong belief that the family comes before society or individual. In essence, the dad and the granddad handle problems with a slap around the head - we handle problems with social workers and trips to Alton Towers.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Section_31

[Joe Le Taxi]

You can all get fucked about national service. I AM NOT DOING THAT!

[Section_31]

You can all get fucked about national service. I AM NOT DOING THAT!

 

Then don't set people on fire.

[Stu Monty]

Then don't set people on fire.

 

Or at least try to cut down. That was how started on the road to giving it up.

[tokyojoe]

The welfare state has everything to answer for. As long as the most unemployable, ignorant, stupid people are paid to breed, seriously, what do you expect?

[Anubis]

Boss post.

 

I think family and community breakdown are the main drivers behind this, but I think the reason it's never openly discussed in this country is because anyone with a brain knows the drivers behind the breakdown are the philosophies around which our society is built.

 

I reckon it's no coincidence that the country in Western Europe which so resembles the USA in terms of gang culture, violent crime, family and community breakdown and drug use, is the country which has so embraced it's values - i.e putting the individual at the centre of the world.

 

I also concede that the structure of our welfare state adds to the problem ( I have two cousins currently engaged in a race to see who can have the most kids and glean the most attention from my aunty, neither have worked a day in their lives and depend on council housing, maybe if that safety net wasn't so easy to access, they'd close their legs a bit more often, or stay closer to their families and keep a boyfriend for longer than a year - because it'd be the only option)

 

But I'm more concerned with the ideals behind it - in many ways the people who choose to exist on benefits still embrace the unbridled consumer values outlined above, but they're just not prepared to work for them - but the concept of 'me me me, fucking me' is still going strong.

 

I've often wondered why the Chinese communities in the UK are conspicuous by their absence when it comes to gang violence and youth crime, seeing as they've been here longer than any other ethnic minority group and are subject to the same pressures presumably (I'm not including organised crime in this, as that's a whole different phenomenon) and it could be because of their multi-generational households and strong belief that the family comes before society or individual. In essence, the dad and the granddad handle problems with a slap around the head - we handle problems with social workers and trips to Alton Towers.

 

All of that is spot on.

[Strontium]

The welfare state has everything to answer for. As long as the most unemployable, ignorant, stupid people are paid to breed, seriously, what do you expect?

 

 

Harsh but fair.

 

On the other hand, the complete absence of a welfare state also leads to gangs of amoral urchins roaming the streets (read your Charles Dickens) which puts us in something of a quandary, doesn't it.

 

Indeed, if only there was some middle path between the socialists' massive welfare state and the conservatives' massively scaled back welfare state! I reckon that would be the one to go with. Such a thing surely can't have been tried in this country for a hundred years or more.

[JohnnyH]

SM and Section 31 have both written very well on this thread. Really good and insightful.

 

I think the British media, and it's readers who are eager to repeat what they read as their own opinion, seem to hate youth and believe that every kid with a hoody top is going to offend. This, of course, is not the case. The Great British public wants to talk down youth at every opportunity. I was watching Mock the Week on that Dave channel and they were saying that exam results were up in the UK and that this was ridicules as the exams were clearly too easy. This, as opposed to congratulating the youth for doing well and trying to nurture their effort. It's wrong, and they view on youth in the UK needs to completely change.

 

However, when you get to the ones that are trouble, they are been treated too well. There needs to be a swift shock to offenders, and it needs to last. I don’t think people should go to jail for robbing some clothes from a shop or something like that, but they should get probation and have to do public service for long periods of time. A small offence such as shoplifting should be heavily punished with 12 months community service. Our taxes shouldn’t employ street cleaners and graffiti removal, and painting and cleaning of public buildings. This should all be done by young offenders on community service. And if they repeat offend then they get 24 months of community service. Their every Saturday and Sunday gone if they already have a job, and 5 full days a week community service if they don’t. A full shock to the system and long and substantive punishments are what’s required.

 

If a teen leaves school, then they have 6 months to get a job. If they don't get one they are put in the army. Once a person leaves college, they have 6 months to get a job or they are in the army. Same applies to people who lose their job. The army needs to expand its portfolio to include council activities.

 

While I’m at it, ever person is means and IQ tested and unless you are above a set IQ you are not allowed vote. Too many idiots making important decisions and allowed an equal voice with people who make the effort to understand politics and contribute to society. Any person who has said they voted BNP to “punish” the Government should immediately be sterilised and never be allowed pro-create.

[Preston Red]

Bring back National Service. Give the scrotes some discipline that they are sadly lacking. Or would the hand-wringing do-gooders find a way of fucking that up too? "No, sorry, shouting isn't allowed anymore, you'll damage the little cherubs' ears. And push-ups are out too".

 

Spot on.

 

The amount of scumbags trawlling the streets goes to show how much the softly softly government have fucked this country up.

 

They seem to listen to Human Rights groups before families of victims of murders, beatings and rapes.

 

Fuck the do-gooders and bring back corporal punishment.

[Section_31]

Here's a question which will set the cat among the piegons, but do people think a welfare state prevents natural selection from doing its job?