Argentina

[Trumo]

Started a new thread because this is not specific to the recent international against Colombia.

 

Having watched the 2nd half of the Argentina-Colombia match, after seeing the 1st half of Uruguay-Brazil, it struck me how much quicker the game is being played in South America. The European influence of many of the players is starting to filter through to the domestic players it seems.

 

My point concerns Argentina. We know on their day they are a joy to watch (witness the 24-pass Cambiasso goal in 2006) but the reason I think they have struggled to win trophies in the last 20 years is due to their emphasis on building teams around a single player, and not playing to all the strengths.

 

This stems from the 80s when they were heavily reliant on Maradona. Now having a player of that class, anyone would make him the focal point. The problem comes when he retires. Who do you turn to? In the late 90s they had Ortega, a box of tricks with an attitude problem who lacked the consistency and maturity to carry the role (as an aside, Hatem Ben Arfa reminds me a lot of him).

 

At the start of this decade, they turned to Veron, and for a while he looked the part. Then he joined a club where he wouldn’t be the focal point, for a record fee, and his game was so affected it resulted in him being totally neutered in 2002, therefore Argentina went home early.

 

Argentina then changed approach slightly in the middle of the decade by focussing on Riquelme, who played slightly further up the pitch. Undoubtedly a talented player, he, more than anyone, required the team to be built solely to suit his game. Again his temperament meant he didn’t really settle in Europe, save for a year at Villarreal. At the 2006 World Cup, Argentina started brightly and looked to be favourites, but Riquelme was neutered by the Germans and Argentina had no plan B. In the end they gambled on beating the Germans on penalties! As you do!

 

The worst example of over-dependence on Riquelme was the 2007 Copa America final against Brazil. Again, Argentina breezed into the final, had virtually all the possession, yet lost 3-0 to Brazilian counter-attacks. Argentina won free kick after free kick in the Brazilian half, and as with the corners won, Riquelme insisted on taking all the set pieces. Each time he just chipped it into the box, hoping one of his sub-6ft attackers could outjump a 6ft-plus Brazilian defender. Argentina didn’t try anything different, thus losing out on a trophy they should by rights have won.

 

Since Maradona’s been in charge, he’s decided to build around Mascherano instead, to alleviate pressure on a single attacker to do everything. Riquelme fell out with him because of this, so Maradona turned to Veron again to control the game’s tempo. The problem is the game has gotten so much faster that Veron’s one-paced game is leaving Argentina exposed. The other midfield options, Gago and Banega, lack both experience and maturity. Gago is heir apparent to Redondo, yet looks too flustered and lacks Redondo’s assurance. He young and may yet develop into another Redondo. The most assured midfielder at the moment is Cambiasso, yet he seems to be out of favour.

 

Argentina are struggling because they DON’T need Veron in there. They would be much better off using a midfielder like Cambiasso (or even Zanetti) to just keep things ticking along and keep the midfield in shape. This would allow Mascherano the opportunity to play his pressing game without exposing the defence too often.

 

Ah yes, the defence. All of their options in defence need a partner that can calmly organise when to press and when to hold. Think about it. They have Demichelis, Diaz, Burdisso or Heinze as regulars, with Coloccini also available (also, remember what Palletta was like at Liverpool, even though he was young at the time). All have a certain rashness about their play, which allows the opposition to get at them, knowing they are liable to panic. Heinze on this very forum has been described as a “car crash defender” and seems never to be far from causing injury to himself or others. They are still looking for the next Roberto Ayala or Nestor Sensini.

 

Argentina as a whole make it too obvious when they don’t like how things are going on the pitch. They seek retribution too visibly. It shames me to say it, but they would be a lot better if they could reintroduce that cynical, behind-the-refs-back gamesmanship defensively. You know, the sort of thing they were once hated for. They have the attacking options to balance it out. More than that, it might allow them to start dictating games again. Maybe, it might win them a World Cup.

[grazywalker]

Good points made there .

[Funkasy]

with Maradona in charge they will win nothing.

[Walton Park]

Its like Gazza managing England really.

[Dan Vito Corleone]

Its like Gazza managing England really.

 

Essentially it is.

 

Great player, but he has about as much management pedigree as myself!

[George Costanza]

They have a frightening array of attacking talent. They are strong in centre midfield too, if slightly lacking nowadays for a playmaker. Defensively they are weak though. Is Garay injured? They miss an Ayala of a few years ago.

 

They need to find a balance upfront too. Can Messi----Aguero-----Tevez work? Does it need a target man like Milito. I find it astonishing that Lucho Gonzalez doesn't get a regular game, he's class. Him, Maschaerano & Cambiasso would make a good central 3 IMO. Far better than the fucking lazy pirate that is Veron.

[Trumo]

This thread isn't about whether Maradona is the right man for the job. It's about the deep-rooted and sometimes inhibiting football culture inherent within the national team framework. No way am I claiming to be the authority on Argentinian football, and I dare say some of the facts might not be all that correct, but I am just highlighting how Maradona seems to have spotted it and is trying to rectify it.

 

If you cast your mind back to 2001, Brazil were absolute gash in qualifying, and went through 2 coaches (Luxemburgo and Leao). OK, Scolari came in and steadied the ship so they qualified, but they were nowhere near favourites to win it in 2002.

 

It was between Argentina (with Veron) and France (with Zidane), both of whom got knocked out in the group stage. I doubt anyone tipped Ronaldo to finish top scorer after basically 2 years out injured.

 

Even if a coach can pinpoint a team's problems, there will be a few teething troubles on the way. Even if Maradona cannot complete the job, he may just have made things easier for the next guy.

[Trumo]

Got beat 2-0 by Ecuador. Tevez missed a penalty, and they apparently missed some great chances before 2 brilliant goals from Ecuador. Did anyone watch the game? Obviously the result not withstanding, how did they do?

 

I'm guessing Argentina selected more home based players to try and counter the effects of altitude. Add to that the fact that Europe based players are coming off the back of a long season.

[Dan Vito Corleone]

Are they still struggling to qualify?

[shea mc]

watchched the match and it should have been over at half time.

Couple of points; zanetti still class,

veron still shit,

and terry gibson is the worst fucking commentator in the entire universe

[fowler9]

anyone know why Masch didnt play?

[SpeedyG]

anyone know why Masch didnt play?

 

Banned got a yellow in the last game.

[Markmywords]

Banned got a yellow in the last game.

 

Good ol' Masch

[Trumo]

Pressure's really on Maradona now. He's starting to lose public confidence, and could be relieved of his duties sooner rather than later. Perhaps Argentina's FA need to go for the most successful Argentinian club coach in recent years, a man who is used to getting results in knockout competitions, if his Copa Libertadores record is anything to go by. A man who moonlights on a show called "Curb Your Enthusiasm". I give you Larry David. Sorry, Carlos Bianchi.

 

[Hooch]

Great post that, la.

 

If Maradona got sacked I reckon it'd be the end for him.

[George Costanza]

Maradona was a fucking terrible appointment. He basically committed managerial suicide last night with the two clowns at centre half he picked. How the fuck Veron still gets a game amazes me.

 

Whats up with the likes og Garay, Cambioasso, Lucho Gonzalez - injured or just not getting picked.

 

Slightly OT but that Ramieres for Brazil is quite possibly the worst ever footballer i've seen.

[Guest]

They should appoint Riquelme as coach, then at least he might get a game.

[The 5th Benitel]

My theory on international footy is that it's pretty much pot luck. Most countries have got decent youth set ups these days but i firmly believe that real top class players are just born with it. Yes, they still need to be trained and brought through properly but genuine world class players are bron with the attributes they need and are then taught how to make the most of them.

 

From what little i've seen of them, Argentina's problem is that they haven't got enough decent defenders. In fact, that must be the case if Collochini (sp) is getting called up. Now, while i cant see what qualifies Maradona as a manager, if he hasn't got enough good defenders with an Argentinian passport then he's fucked. End of.

 

It's like people going on about Spain being the be all and end all. Fact is, up until the last couple of years they were consistantly worse than England. Now they happen to have world class forwards, midfielders, arguably defenders and definately keepers. It's just so happened that they got all of these at the same time, bearing in mind most of them will have been brought through by different systems in Spain.

 

England, on other habd, also have plenty of top class players but have loads in the same position (centre mid and possibly centre back) but not enough in others keeper and forwards. Now, in the past they have had quality in those aras but it just so happens that a world class player hasn't come through in those positions at the moment. A club manager would solve this by bringing hopefully top class players in the transfer window. Internation managers just have to wait until a player with at best the ability or at worst the potential and, most importantly, the right passport. There's not much else they can do.

 

The best example of this is France. For a while everyone, Liverpool especially was wanking over French football. Fact is they had enough quality spread across the team at the same time to make a really ood side. Prior to that they struggled to qualify for tournaments and now they're back to the same situation.

 

So, i basically think a lot of international footy is pot luck. You need to have top quality players coming out of the different systems in your country at the same time. On top of that you need those to quality players to be playing in different positions across the pitch so you can make a team. Probalem is, that doesn't fuel debate in phone ins and talk shows so you'l never hear it in the media.

[Guest]

I said something similar recently, that international football is called shit because people don't like the fact that a national team is as good as it is, they can't go and spend £100million making it better and people find that boring.

[Guest simon]

The commentator last night described as a country hero has now become a country traitor.

 

It's crazy though its fucking Argentina for god sakes. And he's picking nobody's in defence. I believe in giving people chances but last night was terrible defensively there was just loads of room for brazil to do what they want when they got upfront. Hat goes off to that keeper though he saved them from loosing by an embarrasing score. Who was he?

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

Pressure's really on Maradona now. He's starting to lose public confidence, and could be relieved of his duties sooner rather than later. Perhaps Argentina's FA need to go for the most successful Argentinian club coach in recent years, a man who is used to getting results in knockout competitions, if his Copa Libertadores record is anything to go by. A man who moonlights on a show called "Curb Your Enthusiasm". I give you Larry David. Sorry, Carlos Bianchi.

 

 

Thats the best look-a-like i think ive ever seen!!

[The 5th Benitel]

I said something similar recently, that international football is called shit because people don't like the fact that a national team is as good as it is, they can't go and spend £100million making it better and people find that boring.

 

I think, back in the days when a club having 'a team full of internationals' was a novelty, international footy was highly regarded because it was a rare chance to see all of the best players playing together in the same side. Now, every top team is full of international players and they are bought with creating the best possible team in mind. In international footy, if a team doesn't have a decent keeper or forward then it's pretty much fucked. It's not suprising it's lost its appeal when people can watch properly balanced teams containing some of the best players in the world virtually every week.

[George Costanza]

I don't necessarily agree.

 

Of course you need top players to be a good side but if you do have a weakness you find ways of protecting it. Although Brazil defended really well last night and overall have a good record - i have seem them at times and they can look fragile. What they do is stick two defensive midfielders in front to protect them - making it virtually impossible to play throught them. Teams then have to go outwide and given the size of Luisao, Juan and Lusio you'd like to think they'll be more than capable of dealing with crosses.

 

This is where Argentina have a problem. They have a manager who tactically knows fuck all tbh. He's given Messi a central position (he was brilliant by the way) but IMO it unbalances the team. I can't see why he can't play his normal role for Barca - on the left and cutting in. Stretching the oppo's defence in the process.

 

Argebtina should have played Gago next to Masch to protect the inexperianced back four. Just had a look and Garay is not injured or anything and played for Madrid last game - surely he has to have been a better option than those two clowns + he would have added much needed ariel presence to the Argies. Also surely they would have been much better to ahve moved Heinze inside and played someone else at left back.

 

The Argies are well setup for the 4-3-3 system so i don't know why they done't play it. Tevez/Aguero or Higuain could play on the left, Aguero or Milito down the middle with Messi on the right. Riquelme, Gonzalez or someone else playing just behing pulling the strings with Masch & Gago (Cambiasso when fit) holding/battling and protecting the back four.

[Guest]

Nice post George.

 

Just a couple of things.

 

Messi starts from the right for Barca and I hate that Gago, I think he's a steaming turd.

[George Costanza]

Nice post George.

 

Just a couple of things.

 

Messi starts from the right for Barca and I hate that Gago, I think he's a steaming turd.

 

yep mistake there which i corrected later.

 

Not a huge Gago fan myself but he does a good job for the team IMO. Cambiasso when fit would be the obvious choice.

 

 

Because you obviously can't buy players at international level IMO it makes managing a team much more demanding and tactically harder than club level. Obviously teams have to play to their strengths but negate your weakesses as much as possible. Spain for example have managed to do this more recently - they are far less vunerable in defence than they used to be. Having a tight compact midfield mean teams struggle to play through them - while still vunerable they have worked hard on defending set pieces too.