ACADEMY ARTICLE

[Red House]

Ramsay is probably better than Barry already, bad mistake that.

 

Oh come on, getting ahead of yourself there mate. The same Barry that pretty much outplayed those ahead of Ramsey in the Arsenal's pecking order two weeks back. And even then, surely if he is that good, he would have been head and shoulders above the other Cardiff midfielders and the Cardiff staff surely wouldn't have thought twice about starting him in the FA cup final in what is undoubtedly one of the biggest games in their club's history. And, it's not as if they didn't know he was likely to be leaving them in the summer, so no reason for protection or whatever. So, yes it was a mistake because he's got terrific potential but already better than Barry, come on.

[dave u]

Yes and yes.

 

As for San Jose. I disagree that he stands no chance of making it here, the lad is a class act. I do think though that he and 3 or 4 others desperately need to go on loan or risk going backwards.

 

I don't disagree. He is class, he does need to go out on loan and there have already been signs he may start to go backwards.

 

He won't make it here though, I've got no doubt about it. The reason being we have Carragher, Agger and Skrtel. When Hyypia goes we'll sign someone who is dominant in the air to replace him, and if Agger were to leave then once again we would go out and buy someone before we would promote San Jose.

 

He also needs to be looking over his shoulder at Martin Kelly. I think he'll go back to Spain for a decent fee, possibly back to Bilbao.

[Roy Hobbs]

Rafa wanting Barry over Ramsay is perfectly understandable if Alonso left. Ramsay wasn't going to do the job this year was he and Rafa needs to do it this year.

 

People need to remember the rest of the planet had their chance to buy Alonso this past summer and only one manager rated him higher than 12M GBP.

 

Rafa Benitez.

[dave u]

Rafa wanting Barry over Ramsay is perfectly understandable if Alonso left. Ramsay wasn't going to do the job this year was he and Rafa needs to do it this year.

 

People need to remember the rest of the planet had their chance to buy Alonso this past summer and only one manager rated him higher than 12M GBP.

 

Rafa Benitez.

 

Rafa would have sold for whatever he could get if it meant he could get Barry. It was Parry and the yanks who wouldn't sell for less, not least because Sociedad would have gotten a large chunk of it.

 

I've been through this before, but when the deal was first mooted Rafa was talking to the board about replacing Alonso with Barry and coming away with about £12m profit.

 

By the end, he still wanted to do it, but we'd have ended up losing £12m on it, as Barry's price was £18m (plus Finnan), Arsenal were offering around £10.5 for Xabi and out of that we had to pay Sociedad something like £3.5m

 

That was why the plug was pulled on it. Apparently all of this was discussed when Gillett and Parry met SoS.

[redrosetints]

This is such a good thread and Im glad I re subscribed to be able to read the article in question. I think there is also another issue here and thats the problem of the 1st team fringe players getting a run out. With Rafa having his 'squad', Ablett his and the Academy theirs, the lack of fluency doesnt only hold up kids, it leaves the fringe players kicking their heels without any games. We've seen the Lucas threads from the weekend, but all of the fringe players, IMHO, seem to have gone back this season and I feel thats due to playing less games. Rafa is rotating less, therefore, without reserve team football, the likes of Lucas, Plessis and NGog aren't playing regularly. Their form and confidence are low on the all too infrequent occasion they get a run out with teh first team and that in turn leads to a poor display and a decrease in confidence/form. While many have never taken to Lucas he did get 5 assists from limited time last season and looked much more positive. NGog looked sharp and in form in the preseason, but a shadow of that now. Plessis played regularly for the ressies ;last year, was raved about on this very forum, had a strorming debut against Arsenal and has since slipped back. While we need to bring the kids through, the 1st team is the most important and somewhere, Rafa/Ablett/Academy guys, need to enable us to be able to bring through the best players, regadless of who signed them, but also give the younger 1st team squaddies regular footie, to keep their confidence and form up.

[Roy Hobbs]

Fair enough Dave, not going to argue with you. My point stands though that noone valued Xabi more than 12M.

 

Stupid pricks.

[dave u]

This is such a good thread and Im glad I re subscribed to be able to read the article in question. I think there is also another issue here and thats the problem of the 1st team fringe players getting a run out. With Rafa having his 'squad', Ablett his and the Academy theirs, the lack of fluency doesnt only hold up kids, it leaves the fringe players kicking their heels without any games. We've seen the Lucas threads from the weekend, but all of the fringe players, IMHO, seem to have gone back this season and I feel thats due to playing less games. Rafa is rotating less, therefore, without reserve team football, the likes of Lucas, Plessis and NGog aren't playing regularly. Their form and confidence are low on the all too infrequent occasion they get a run out with teh first team and that in turn leads to a poor display and a decrease in confidence/form. While many have never taken to Lucas he did get 5 assists from limited time last season and looked much more positive. NGog looked sharp and in form in the preseason, but a shadow of that now. Plessis played regularly for the ressies ;last year, was raved about on this very forum, had a strorming debut against Arsenal and has since slipped back. While we need to bring the kids through, the 1st team is the most important and somewhere, Rafa/Ablett/Academy guys, need to enable us to be able to bring through the best players, regadless of who signed them, but also give the younger 1st team squaddies regular footie, to keep their confidence and form up.

 

 

It's a very valid point, and in my opinion the person who suffers most from the current policy is Cavalieri. Ideally, he should be getting some run outs for the reserves, but the reserves have Gulacsi and Bouzanis who are currently being rotated as they need games.

 

However, Plessis has featured in virtually every reserve game, and also in a few of the friendlies they've had, so he has no excuse. NGog has also played several games, although not as many as Plessis.

 

Plessis can't use a lack of games as an excuse for his form, but some of the others possibly can.

[dave u]

Fair enough Dave, not going to argue with you. My point stands though that noone valued Xabi more than 12M.

 

Stupid pricks.

 

Yes it does, and yes they are. Fenerbahce valued him higher than that I think, but he was never going to go there. And how much was the original Juve deal for? I know they changed their mind, but originally they were going to pay more than £12m weren't they?

 

The funny thing is that Rafa told the board in April that Real Madrid had been sniffing around Xabi, and that he could get £25m for him from them!

[Hooch]

This is such a good thread and Im glad I re subscribed to be able to read the article in question. I think there is also another issue here and thats the problem of the 1st team fringe players getting a run out. With Rafa having his 'squad', Ablett his and the Academy theirs, the lack of fluency doesnt only hold up kids, it leaves the fringe players kicking their heels without any games. We've seen the Lucas threads from the weekend, but all of the fringe players, IMHO, seem to have gone back this season and I feel thats due to playing less games. Rafa is rotating less, therefore, without reserve team football, the likes of Lucas, Plessis and NGog aren't playing regularly. Their form and confidence are low on the all too infrequent occasion they get a run out with teh first team and that in turn leads to a poor display and a decrease in confidence/form. While many have never taken to Lucas he did get 5 assists from limited time last season and looked much more positive. NGog looked sharp and in form in the preseason, but a shadow of that now. Plessis played regularly for the ressies ;last year, was raved about on this very forum, had a strorming debut against Arsenal and has since slipped back. While we need to bring the kids through, the 1st team is the most important and somewhere, Rafa/Ablett/Academy guys, need to enable us to be able to bring through the best players, regadless of who signed them, but also give the younger 1st team squaddies regular footie, to keep their confidence and form up.

 

Really?

Where did you get this stat?

I'm not disputing it I'd just really like to know what these were.

[bigal]

San Jose. He's only young Dave and a year or two on loan would see Carra reaching a certain age and who knows what with Skrtel and Agger. MSJ reads the game and his passing is way above that of other central defenders. It'd be criminal to sell him on unless we have real solid replacements for Carra etc.

[dave u]

San Jose. He's only young Dave and a year or two on loan would see Carra reaching a certain age and who knows what with Skrtel and Agger. MSJ reads the game and his passing is way above that of other central defenders. It'd be criminal to sell him on unless we have real solid replacements for Carra etc.

 

He won't wait forever, and he plays in a position where youngsters rarely get opportunities at big clubs. If he was a winger, a forward or a full back even, it might be different, but Rafa is not going to put his faith in a young centre half. Very few managers of top clubs do.

[bigal]

No I agree there. In which case why bring in foreign central defenders for a youth team. I really rate San Jose and hope things can work for him here. I think he's one of a handful that should be kept and as you wrote in the article a lot of deadwood needs clearing. The reserve team should be buzzing with players who could step up not a reserve for dross like Brouwer, Bruna, Flynn, Putterill who will never make it at LFC. It doesn't take a genius to spot who has the real talent and if they ain't good enough then ship them out, otherwise the whole set up is moribund and a drain on resources

[Roy Hobbs]

Yes it does, and yes they are. Fenerbahce valued him higher than that I think, but he was never going to go there. And how much was the original Juve deal for? I know they changed their mind, but originally they were going to pay more than £12m weren't they?

 

The funny thing is that Rafa told the board in April that Real Madrid had been sniffing around Xabi, and that he could get £25m for him from them!

 

The whole thing stank TBH, start to finish. All that matters to me is Xabi is back big time. Long may that last.

 

On a side note I was happy to see Gerrard give Xabi a big plug recently (last week?).

[RSM]

He won't wait forever, and he plays in a position where youngsters rarely get opportunities at big clubs. If he was a winger, a forward or a full back even, it might be different, but Rafa is not going to put his faith in a young centre half. Very few managers of top clubs do.

 

I think we're well stocked for central Defenders at the moment and as you've mentioned we also have young Kelly coming through. And the new CL nationality rules may favour him if they're at the same level in about years time.

 

Maybe Rafa will opt to sell San Jose in the short term (for the sake of MSJ development and happiness) but will insert a buy back clause in any deal. That would be the way i would certainly play it if MSJ wanted to go back to spain, otherwise i'd send him on loan to a championship team who likes to play football and already has a John Terry type thug in their ranks who can partner the more classy MSJ.

[Unrighteous]

Dave, what do you think are the chances that the deadwood WILL be removed?

[royhendo]

Just did a bit of digging around on the web to collate figures for a few of our rivals when it comes to squad numbers...

 

First team squad numbers

36 - Arsenal, Man Utd

35 - Liverpool

30 - Man City

27 - Chelsea

23 - Villa

 

Reserve players not listed in 1st team

21 - Villa

19 - Man City

18 - Liverpool

17 - Arsenal

13 - Chelsea

10 - Man Utd

 

Total loanees (1st team and reserves)

11 - Liverpool

10 - Arsenal

9 - Chelsea

6 - Man Utd

3 - Man City

2 - Aston Villa

 

 

Academy players not listed in reserves

27 - Aston Villa

25 - Man Utd

22 - Chelsea

19 - Liverpool

17 - Arsenal

? - Man City (details not listed)

 

---

 

So - total player numbers for 1st team and reserves are as follows...

 

64 - Liverpool

63 - Arsenal

52 - Man Utd

52 - Man City

49 - Chelsea

46 - Aston Villa

[hamstrung]

If they are crap, we should shoot them in the face. Problem solved.

[redrosetints]

It's a very valid point, and in my opinion the person who suffers most from the current policy is Cavalieri. Ideally, he should be getting some run outs for the reserves, but the reserves have Gulacsi and Bouzanis who are currently being rotated as they need games.

 

However, Plessis has featured in virtually every reserve game, and also in a few of the friendlies they've had, so he has no excuse. NGog has also played several games, although not as many as Plessis.

 

Plessis can't use a lack of games as an excuse for his form, but some of the others possibly can.

 

Yep, noticed that after the post, read the Newcastle thread and remembered I'd seen him played a few times, obviously its the Itandje effect. Rafa wants to nip that in the bud, Plessis has alot of talent be a shame for him and us to waste it.

 

I'd not even thought of the keeper, but it got to be hard to be dropped into the 1st team, without playing at all, especially for a leg like Xabi, or even Torres as Keanes found it hard.

 

Where does all this leave the likes of Andersen and Hamill, loaned out to never be seen again, if not where do they come back too ? No point in them coming back to play reserves, they needed a greater challenge hence their loans.

 

I guess its the same at all clubs, but the more you look at it from all sides, Rafas, Abletts and the Academys, the more it's clear that as a club, we need a single hand running it, thats my solution anyway. Then there is a clear chain of command and clear hierarchy, that way, there wont be a surplus of players and everyone will be where they deserve to be on merit rather than being bigged up by the Academy only for Rafa to not like them, or vice versa.

[redrosetints]

Really?

Where did you get this stat?

I'm not disputing it I'd just really like to know what these were.

 

I made it up ! Just to suit my agenda :whistle:

 

He got 5 assists last season from 12 starts, only Gerrard and Kuyt IIRC got more. For the record, Xabi and Masch got 2 between them in 41 starts.

 

ESPNsoccernet - Liverpool Statistics

 

But food for thought, can't have been that bad last year can he ! Like Kuyt really, slagged off by our fans, but scored as many league goals as berbatov in his first season. Anyway, this isn't bout Lucas. Just cut him some slack next time !

[Barrington Womble]

Yes it does, and yes they are. Fenerbahce valued him higher than that I think, but he was never going to go there. And how much was the original Juve deal for? I know they changed their mind, but originally they were going to pay more than £12m weren't they?

 

The funny thing is that Rafa told the board in April that Real Madrid had been sniffing around Xabi, and that he could get £25m for him from them!

 

I seem to remember they bid £14m and we were holding out for £16m.

[Code]

I seem to remember they bid £14m and we were holding out for £16m.

 

Liverpool's Xabi Alonso on way to Juventus - Telegraph

[Maldini]

Dave, you heard anything about them putting two reserve teams out next season? It really would solve a lot of our problems.

[bigal]

Dave, you heard anything about them putting two reserve teams out next season? It really would solve a lot of our problems.

 

It would be sensible. Surely other clubs have similar issues, hence the friendly games, so why don't they sort a bigger league or more competitions? It seems obvious

[dave u]

Dave, you heard anything about them putting two reserve teams out next season? It really would solve a lot of our problems.

 

Haven't heard, but to be honest if they don't do it then someone needs their arse kicked, as its a no brainer.

 

They also need to ensure that if they are using two teams, that Eduardo isn't allowed to fill them both with his players. He'd see another team as a chance to go fucking mad and bring in a load more.

[redshoeshuffle]

This Macia bloke sounds like a cunt.