Owen Jones.

[Section_31]

10 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

That argument can easily be reversed. Many of the millions rightly outraged at Russia's invasion of Ukraine have been strangely silent over Israeli bombardment and incursion into Gaza.

 

 

Unlike Ukrainians innocent Palestinians have nowhere to flee and have received miniscule amounts of overseas humanitarian aid. They also do not have an army or airforce that will defend its civilians. 

 

This is true as well. 

 

The Palestine stuff always attracts a certain type of outrage from certain quarters  (people like Galloway are good examples) and it seems to be tied in with anti American and anti Western sentiment.

 

I don't include this current situation, which is beyond fucked up, I'm talking historically.

 

Said same people didn't march when Russia  was using thermobarrick bombs on Chechnya, or when Saudi cluster bombed Yemen. 

 

Double standards are all over the shop with this, that's why I pay it no mind when it's used solely to make a point against the "other side".

[sir roger]

I suppose a bit of difference is that in the Russia / Saudi attacks our government weren't actively acting as cheerleaders for them, so maybe people feel they have to protest more loudly to make their feelings known.

[Arniepie]

Said it before but I find it mad how the left seem obsessed with ripping each other to shreds rather than focusing on those other cunts. 

 

 

 

You can even see it over gaza. 

 

 

 

Tories for some reason seem to be a lot more unified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

12 hours ago, sir roger said:

I suppose a bit of difference is that in the Russia / Saudi attacks our government weren't actively acting as cheerleaders for them, so maybe people feel they have to protest more loudly to make their feelings known.

 

I think actually the three situations are a good example because I'd argue that the more people thought our government were involved the more people "cared". There were some protests about Saudi Arabia because they own half of London and we freely trade with them despite them obviously being utterly horrific fucking cunts. I'd also suggest, rightly or wrongly, that there is a much easier distinction with Saudi/Yemen and Israel/Palestine than there is with Russia/Chechnya. Most people couldn't point to the latter on a map, much less have any understanding of the situation. That said, if people knew more, I think there would be/would have been more protests etc.

 

 

[Jairzinho]

9 hours ago, Arniepie said:

Tories for some reason seem to be a lot more unified.

 

Well, yes. They have one common, concrete goal. Move money from the hands of the many to the hands of the few. Everything else is just fluff.

[SasaS]

2 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

 

I think actually the three situations are a good example because I'd argue that the more people thought our government were involved the more people "cared". There were some protests about Saudi Arabia because they own half of London and we freely trade with them despite them obviously being utterly horrific fucking cunts. I'd also suggest, rightly or wrongly, that there is a much easier distinction with Saudi/Yemen and Israel/Palestine than there is with Russia/Chechnya. Most people couldn't point to the latter on a map, much less have any understanding of the situation. That said, if people knew more, I think there would be/would have been more protests etc.

 

 

 

It's also ideological. For many people, the only imperialism that gets them going is the American one. Mostly you only have to look where the US are in some conflict to know how people will react. This then extends to the UK involvement, normally tied to national interest of being chief American henchman.

 

At the same time, the main problem with opposition to an American dominated world order is that the multilateral alternative looks like a union of tyrants and authoritarians with an occasional basket case country thrown in to spice thing up.  

[Jairzinho]

33 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

It's also ideological. For many people, the only imperialism that gets them going is the American one. Mostly you only have to look where the US are in some conflict to know how people will react. This then extends to the UK involvement, normally tied to national interest of being chief American henchman.

 

At the same time, the main problem with opposition to an American dominated world order is that the multilateral alternative looks like a union of tyrants and authoritarians with an occasional basket case country thrown in to spice thing up.  

 

I think part of the reason for this is that the US are so brazen and celebratory about it. Most people haven't got a clue about what , for example, China are doing in Africa or South America, usually because they keep quiet about it, and it tends to be more about buying countries rather than blowing them up.

[SasaS]

56 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

I think part of the reason for this is that the US are so brazen and celebratory about it. Most people haven't got a clue about what , for example, China are doing in Africa or South America, usually because they keep quiet about it, and it tends to be more about buying countries rather than blowing them up.

 

Also, we tend not to care or understand that much about China.

 

I was fairly surprised at a fair amount of anti-Americanism on the right, especially among the sovereigntists. On the left, it is traditional, for various reasons. Outside of politics, it is mainly envy and resentment, due to economic, military and cultural power -  I mean the rest of the West, broadly speaking, and direct US spheres of influence like Latin America. I'd say we don't resent the Chinese for example, because they don't influence us all that much directly (unless you follow business news).

 

But it is really interesting (well, to me) to observe how attitudes to America shape viewpoints, for example, how people who were largely dismissive of suffering in East Aleppo, dominated by Muslim Brotherhood inspired Qatari financed Sunni militias are extremely sensitive to suffering in Muslim Brotherhood inspired Qatari financed Sunni militia dominated Gaza. Or how Kurds in Rojava were always much less popular than Palestinians (many people going there to volunteer notwithstanding)  because they decided it was opportune for them to side with the Americans for a while (and still enjoy their protection). Or how Iran often gets a free pass. I was banned from IRSP-s FB page because I couldn't  understand how can they side with Donbas separatists and Putin against Ukraine (before the invasion, but I doubt they changed much since), because to me, histoircally there were clear parallel in Russia-Ukraine and England-Ireland dynamic. Forgetting they are paleo hard left.  

 

So for me, beyond understandable human responses to witnessing suffering and atrocities being committed, the sensitivities to various wars are predominantly politically or ideologically motivated, with a smidgen of cultural conditioning. 

 

[Preston Red]

The only decent thing to come out of Jones' grid.

 

 

[Jairzinho]

I'm not sure for example the Kurds v Palestinians examples holds up. The Kurds, especially because of Rojava, and their feminism in general, are incredibly well supported. Again though, it's lack of knowledge, lack of coverage, and a seemingly more convulted situation. Iraq and Syria are great examples of this. Unless you're really, really following what's going on, and have at least a bit of knowledge of culture and religion in the area, you struggle to even know who is on which team. There are continuous, multi-layered, proxy wars going on, and Bob on Twitter who just wants a fairer society in the UK is unlikely to have a detailed grasp on it.

 

I think where I completely agree with you is that the Chinese simply don't influence us as much and, I suppose, in a way, that's because they're better at imperialism than the Americans have been when it comes to PR. Very few people in the West could name three contempoary Chinese politicians. And that's deliberate on the part of the Chinese. 

 

 

[Gnasher]

The World's policeman.

 

https://davidswanson.org/warlist/

 

Wharra list. Where would we be without em.

[SasaS]

21 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I'm not sure for example the Kurds v Palestinians examples holds up. The Kurds, especially because of Rojava, and their feminism in general, are incredibly well supported. Again though, it's lack of knowledge, lack of coverage, and a seemingly more convulted situation. Iraq and Syria are great examples of this. Unless you're really, really following what's going on, and have at least a bit of knowledge of culture and religion in the area, you struggle to even know who is on which team. There are continuous, multi-layered, proxy wars going on, and Bob on Twitter who just wants a fairer society in the UK is unlikely to have a detailed grasp on it.

 

I think where I completely agree with you is that the Chinese simply don't influence us as much and, I suppose, in a way, that's because they're better at imperialism than the Americans have been when it comes to PR. Very few people in the West could name three contempoary Chinese politicians. And that's deliberate on the part of the Chinese. 

 

 

 

Well, they don't influence almost every aspect of your life like the Americans do, from what you eat (OK, they may have a strong hand here), how you do business and what your job is called, what music you like to how you talk, fuck and how much pubic hair you are supposed to tolerate.  

 

I think Kurds are much less supported than Palestinians, if you take everything into consideration.

 

On Owen Jones, I first became aware of him about 10 years ago because he was a guest on the 10 O'Clock Live show (Brooker, Carr, Laverne, Mitchell) , he was pretty impressive because he looked 17 and managed to make a lot of interesting points. Found a clip on Youtube and was surprised how much relaxed he came across compared to later. They also had Milo Yiannopoulos on, before his troll camp makeover which briefly made him famous, so it's funny how demands of political showbiz push you to be more and more over the top to remain in the spotlight.   

[Section_31]

I think Jones is following a business model, whether he knows it or not. 

 

I'm not into YouTube really but there were a couple of fellas on there I used to watch, I found them through searching for reviews about the new Star Trek shows.  Some of their stuff was good but then they increasingly went down  this 'anti woke' rabbit hole where virtually all the 'content' was about how Disney was in 'turmoil' and calling Marvel the 'M-she-u'. It's tiresome as fuck so I stopped watching.

 

But, they make a fortune. Some of these youtubers are on about 20-30k a month. 

 

There's  market for that type of anger (I hate Marvel, I hate Disney etc) and if you give the people what they want, it sells.

 

I think Jones is the same with the perma-enraged anti Starmer crowd and, now, the Palestine stuff. He's also nailed down the Trans lobby, which as we know, is quite formidable.

 

All of these types exist in the same place - purely online. Their audiences are similar in that they're in echo chambers like Twitter, all day, every day, just getting pissed off and looking for other reasons to be pissed off. And the likes of Jones, between gainful employment at the Guardian etc, will just pump out YouTube vids to service it. 

 

It's how the likes of Novara media probably make a living too. 

[Arniepie]

if you got angry about every injustice in the world you would go insane(how can you get annoyed about palestine when a tribe in the amazon forest has had all their food robbed by the neighbouring lot?)

 

palestine is,relatively well covered in this country and even so,there is a huge amount of ignorance around,me included  

[Section_31]

14 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

if you got angry about every injustice in the world you would go insane(how can you get annoyed about palestine when a tribe in the amazon forest has had all their food robbed by the neighbouring lot?)

 

palestine is,relatively well covered in this country and even so,there is a huge amount of ignorance around,me included  

 

As I said earlier in the thread I think Palestine (like Iraq) attracts a similar type of outrage because it's seen as having the west's paw prints all over it. People who don't like the yanks/UK have a special kind of outrage for it. You didn't get it so much with Afghanistan because the Taliban are the patriarchy.

 

Let's face it, Muslims are out there all day, every day, killing each other. Saudi and Iran are like the Gallagher brothers. Iraq hates Iran, Sunni hate Shia, everyone hates the Kurds.

 

I used to work in Bolton and some lad had had the shit kicked out of him because his family hailed from a different part of Pakistan than the rest of them. 

[VladimirIlyich]

7 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

I'm not sure for example the Kurds v Palestinians examples holds up. The Kurds, especially because of Rojava, and their feminism in general, are incredibly well supported. Again though, it's lack of knowledge, lack of coverage, and a seemingly more convulted situation. Iraq and Syria are great examples of this. Unless you're really, really following what's going on, and have at least a bit of knowledge of culture and religion in the area, you struggle to even know who is on which team. There are continuous, multi-layered, proxy wars going on, and Bob on Twitter who just wants a fairer society in the UK is unlikely to have a detailed grasp on it.

 

I think where I completely agree with you is that the Chinese simply don't influence us as much and, I suppose, in a way, that's because they're better at imperialism than the Americans have been when it comes to PR. Very few people in the West could name three contempoary Chinese politicians. And that's deliberate on the part of the Chinese. 

 

 

We cant name them because we cant pronounce their names.

[Denny Crane]

I saw him talking about his recent diagnosis of ADHD, I suspect that contributes to part of who he is. 

 

 

 

 

[Paul]

I’m never a fan of people who sneer at others, no matter what their views, and Jones fucking loves that shit. 

[Gnasher]

Different take to the Hamas terror vid? Jones must be a domestic abuser. They're fucking mental.

 

https://x.com/bindelj/status/1729488068275556529?s=20

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bjornebye]

What's he done @Gnasher ? Chinned a woman? Or are they just chatting shit as usual? 

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

What's he done @Gnasher ? Chinned a woman? Or are they just chatting shit as usual? 

 

He's taken a more 'sober' veiw of the 7th October Hamas terror attack. The dogs are definitely barking. No he hasn't chinned his boyfriend/girlfriend 

[Gnasher]

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

All totally reasonable. These are just a few 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

 

 

 

 

Oh fuck Murray will be cancelled as well.. Below are the comments that's got Jones into big bovver 

 

 

 

 

[Arniepie]

That Sophie bellend on twitter is calling him posh 

Whatever you think of his views,I'm not sure being the son of a shop steward and going to a comp is hardly upper class.