Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[skend04]

6 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

"Offical figures show"

 

 

Not read the report again have you. 80% wages on furlough Vs 100% wages now people are returning to work aren't the wage rise you think they are.

 

 

[Rico1304]

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned over the page but medical supplies starting to be impacted now. 
 

Apparently ballerinas are on the approved visa list but not lorry drivers. 

[Bruce Spanner]

8 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned over the page but medical supplies starting to be impacted now. 
 

Apparently ballerinas are on the approved visa list but not lorry drivers. 

 

Yep...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/skilled-worker-visa-eligible-occupations/skilled-worker-visa-eligible-occupations-and-codes

 

The shortages is illuminating as well...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations

 

A lot of the issues arise that a lot of labour from abroad, the EU, was to cover specialisms and these are not an easy fix as they can require, in some cases, years of training.

 

Whilst we're being told to focus on the low skilled, low pay sector there is an equally big problem in the service/management class of worker which is a more difficult fix than pay rises in some lower paying sectors where there are shortages.

 

 

[sir roger]

Taken all of the Brexit gut punches as equitably as possible but the possibility of no pigs in blankets at Xmas has taken me over the edge.I have no idea what a cudgel is , but when I find out I am taking one up.

[deiseach]

10 hours ago, skend04 said:

Probably picked and packed  by migrant labour because they were needed post war and in even greater numbers from the 90s onwards when everyone wanted milk and veg for pennies. 

Back in my youth in the 80's and 90's, a lot of it would have been done by teenagers on their summer holidays. The problem agriculture faces is that the value of its output, and therefore the price that can be earned on it, has not kept pace with earnings in other parts of the economy. There's an article on the Bank of England's website which illustrates the point. Since 1990, the price of a pint of milk has doubled. The price of a football ticket has gone up eightfold. That's an extreme example, but it's one to which lots of people can relate. Applying that to the teenager working in the fields, they could have paid for their football ticket through the winter with what they earned. These days, there's no chance of that. It's not laziness that holds them back from working, it's them being a rational economic agent. So what are those engaged in agriculture to do? For the last few decades, they've been bringing in labour from the modern day equivalent of those teenagers: workers from eastern Europe with no children who are content to work 12-hour days and live twenty to a house with their fellow countrymen/women for a few months because they know the sterling earned will translate into a tidy pile of zlotys back home. Now that they are gone, I look forward to Brexiteers and their fellow travellers on the left, for whom the latté-sipping metropolitan elites are the real enemy, entertaining eightfold increases in the price of fruit and vegetables to bring their value into line with those of football tickets.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

 

They're all gazillionaire Tory landowners and everyone who sees a problem with this situation is a Tory.

[Captain Willard]

40 minutes ago, deiseach said:

Back in my youth in the 80's and 90's, a lot of it would have been done by teenagers on their summer holidays. The problem agriculture faces is that the value of its output, and therefore the price that can be earned on it, has not kept pace with earnings in other parts of the economy. There's an article on the Bank of England's website which illustrates the point. Since 1990, the price of a pint of milk has doubled. The price of a football ticket has gone up eightfold. That's an extreme example, but it's one to which lots of people can relate. Applying that to the teenager working in the fields, they could have paid for their football ticket through the winter with what they earned. These days, there's no chance of that. It's not laziness that holds them back from working, it's them being a rational economic agent. So what are those engaged in agriculture to do? For the last few decades, they've been bringing in labour from the modern day equivalent of those teenagers: workers from eastern Europe with no children who are content to work 12-hour days and live twenty to a house with their fellow countrymen/women for a few months because they know the sterling earned will translate into a tidy pile of zlotys back home. Now that they are gone, I look forward to Brexiteers and their fellow travellers on the left, for whom the latté-sipping metropolitan elites are the real enemy, entertaining eightfold increases in the price of fruit and vegetables to bring their value into line with those of football tickets.

In any industry there are a number of responses to a structural change. Reduce the price of Labour, increase the price of goods sold, innovate to improve productivity or reduce returns on capital. Becuase of the supply of cheap Labour, agriculture hasn’t had to innovate or reduce returns which is why most land owning farmers are multi millionaires but employ people on minimum wage to hand pick crops the same way the Victorians did. Now that supply of cheap Labour has gone and they can’t impose tariffs to keep out imports they are going to have to change how the industry works 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

I wonder if James O'Brien would ever do it, or absolutely anyone who moves in his circle? 

 

These jobs require cheap labour because they're shite and pay shite money for shite hours. A lot of British people don't want to do them for those (fairly legitimate) reasons, so rather than upping their game the industry turned to foreign labour and waged wholesale character assassination on the British working class. 

 

"British people won't do this work!" Leaving out the important second half of the sentence (for shite pay).

 

Imagine O'Brien and Owen Jones working in a field all night on zero hours for minimum wage with turnip quotas to fill under pain of the sack. That's a channel 5 programme I'd watch.

 

I think Brexit is shite, but this stuff has always pissed me off.

 

Sandwiches, fruit and veg existed in Britain before 2004, I seem to remember.

 

Some dodgy arguments there, Secsh.  O'Brien and  Jones are no different from tens of millions of us who have homes and mortgages and are therefore unable to take unreliable seasonal work.

 

Here's a decent article about harvesting before the early 2000s.

"Who picked British fruit and veg before migrant workers?" https://theconversation.com/amp/who-picked-british-fruit-and-veg-before-migrant-workers-63279

 

The stand-out points are that Tesco and the other giant retailers drove wages down by driving down the prices they paid to farmers and that migrant workers are more likely to view seasonal work as a temporary hardship than as a dead-end job.

 

[Rico1304]

My MiL used to pick potatoes for extra money when she had her kids.  She said it was back breaking, and she only did it as it was the only way they could get cash for a weeks hols.  Apparently it was a common way to earn extra cash in Gloucestershire. That and wanking off farmers. 

[Captain Turdseye]

Not only have the Romanians and Bulgarians been fucked off but we’ve also made importing fruit & veg much less viable for European farmers, thanks to all the customs checks and delays that weren’t there before. 
 

Small price to pay for getting our country back. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Apparently ballerinas are on the approved visa list but not lorry drivers. 

That ballerina who retrained in tech must feel like a right cunt.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, deiseach said:

Back in my youth in the 80's and 90's, a lot of it would have been done by teenagers on their summer holidays. The problem agriculture faces is that the value of its output, and therefore the price that can be earned on it, has not kept pace with earnings in other parts of the economy. There's an article on the Bank of England's website which illustrates the point. Since 1990, the price of a pint of milk has doubled. The price of a football ticket has gone up eightfold. That's an extreme example, but it's one to which lots of people can relate. Applying that to the teenager working in the fields, they could have paid for their football ticket through the winter with what they earned. These days, there's no chance of that. It's not laziness that holds them back from working, it's them being a rational economic agent. So what are those engaged in agriculture to do? For the last few decades, they've been bringing in labour from the modern day equivalent of those teenagers: workers from eastern Europe with no children who are content to work 12-hour days and live twenty to a house with their fellow countrymen/women for a few months because they know the sterling earned will translate into a tidy pile of zlotys back home. Now that they are gone, I look forward to Brexiteers and their fellow travellers on the left, for whom the latté-sipping metropolitan elites are the real enemy, entertaining eightfold increases in the price of fruit and vegetables to bring their value into line with those of football tickets.

That's another horrible irony of this whole fucking mess. The Islington latté-sippers, just like the Billionaire Boys Club who lied Brexit into existence, will be able to afford (or claim on expenses/write off against tax) the inevitable price rises. The low-paid, Red-Wall saps who were filled into voting for this will inevitably be the hardest hit.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Does not apply in Gnashworld.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Captain Willard said:

 they are going to have to change how the industry works 

What changes do you think are (a) likely and (b) desirable for working people?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

38 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

 That and wanking off farmers. 

I heard that on one day she earned £100.50.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Who paid 50p?"

"All of them."

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 who were filled into voting for this

*gulled*

[Moo]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That's another horrible irony of this whole fucking mess. The Islington latté-sippers, just like the Billionaire Boys Club who lied Brexit into existence, will be able to afford (or claim on expenses/write off against tax) the inevitable price rises. The low-paid, Red-Wall saps who were filled into voting for this will inevitably be the hardest hit.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Does not apply in Gnashworld.

Did the Islington latte sippers vote to leave the EU?  I thought Brexit was a protest vote against the metropolitan elite Islington latte sippers?

Oh this is all so confusing, I suppose I'll have to turn to facts to see how it's panning out, although that didn't do me much good when I was voting as "I lost" anyway. 

[Bruce Spanner]

2016 'Sunlit uplands ahoy!'

 

2021 'Yeah, we might have to trian the lags to drive HGV's on day release'

 

I'm sure this was in the orginal brochure somewhere.

 

Just had a look at the mental contortions that the Hail are doing and it's standard 'Our place in the world is maintained, we're Britain, don't cha know and if you disagree we'll give you a whole load of whatfor' in relation to our place in the world and 'We don't need stuff anyway, I didn't die in two world wars so wokies can have stuff like water and basic rations delivered. These people need to understand suffering, that's waht makes Britain great.' 

 

There's also the argument that wages should just be quadrupled and whatnot so they get their pigs in blankets for xmas without any understanding of the supply side of demand economics.

 

Alternative reality.

[Gnasher]

7 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

2016 'Sunlit uplands ahoy!'

 

2021 'Yeah, we might have to trian the lags to drive HGV's on day release'

 

I'm sure this was in the orginal brochure somewhere.

 

Just had a look at the mental contortions that the Hail are doing and it's standard 'Our place in the world is maintained, we're Britain, don't cha know and if you disagree we'll give you a whole load of whatfor' in relation to our place in the world and 'We don't need stuff anyway, I didn't die in two world wars so wokies can have stuff like water and basic rations delivered. These people need to understand suffering, that's waht makes Britain great.' 

 

There's also the argument that wages should just be quadrupled and whatnot so they get their pigs in blankets for xmas without any understanding of the supply side of demand economics.

 

Alternative reality.

I don't think anyone is saying wages should just be increased to an extortionate rate or "quadrupled" just that wages and conditions are are improved to a reasonable level and standard that befits the welfare of the thousands upon thousands of people that work in this line of work that they receive a decent living wage and are appreciated for their labour which will improve the social welfare and cohesion throughout the country, which benefits us all.

 

This country needs a living wage asap, I believe its coming into Wales, it really does need to be implemented thouought the country. 

[Rico1304]

Looks like some hauliers are moving to use vans rather than HGVs where possible.  Does that mean unskilled cheap labour? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

 

This country needs a living wage asap, I believe its coming into Wales, it really does need to be implemented thouought the country. 

True. Unfortunately, Brexit has both fucked the economy and cemented the right wing of the Tory Party in power, so widespread in-work poverty is here to stay.

[Captain Willard]

1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

Looks like some hauliers are moving to use vans rather than HGVs where possible.  Does that mean unskilled cheap labour? 

This is bound to happen. Businesses will adapt until the HGV crisis is sorted. Delivery Driving jobs will become well paid which will knock on to Uber, deliveroo etc and hasten the end of these exploitative business models. This is how free labour markets are meant to work. 

[Mudface]

6 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

This is bound to happen. Businesses will lose money until the HGV crisis is sorted. Delivery Driving jobs will stay poorly paid while the likes of Uber, deliveroo etc hasten the end of any sort of renaissance in wages. This is how rigged capitalism works.

Edited that a little for you.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Indeed.

 

"How free markets are meant to work" never lasts long when it brushes up against reality, with all its complexity, stupidity, greed, irrationality, corruption, accident and chance.

[Moctezuma]

On 25/08/2021 at 22:33, Rico1304 said:

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned over the page but medical supplies starting to be impacted now. 
 

Apparently ballerinas are on the approved visa list but not lorry drivers. 

The department have been told to hold off on doing blood tests unless absolutely necessary as there aren't enough blood collection devices in the UK. Bloods are normally done as par for the course and enable clinicians to get a better understanding of the patients condition and sometimes can pick up background infections/things that are going wrong. Hopefully nothing bad will happen.