Tony Blair

[Bobby Hundreds]

Corbyn became leader because politicians thought a choice from across the "broad church" should be put up as a token gesture, they then shit themselves when he won. These last few years has shown if you give people a vote to throw a spanner in the works, they will even if like with Trump it's totally fucking bananas.

[Jairzinho]

Especially if you shit on those people for about 35/40 years.

[Strontium]

Corbyn is trying to reform the Labour Party further so that it is considerably more democratic, and can't be hijacked by people that aren't actually democratic socialists.

 

He's going to make it more democratic by making it so that future generations can't democratically decide to take it in a more moderate direction? This is spectacular doublespeak.

[Neil G]

That's pretty charitable to New Labour.

 

What Blair did, other than being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians of course, was ensured that the whole game was sewn up. He did a deal with the devil, because he personally couldn't give a fuck what happens/happened to the poorest people in society. He allowed the entire political landscape to shift so far to the right economically that we're left in a position now where Keynesianism is looked at as Marxism. Him and Clinton are far more responsible for this than Reagan and Thatcher are.

If Sec is being charitable I think you’re being harsh there.

 

He did and does give a fuck - he comes over as aloof and detached, presumably as a result of his comfortable upbringing, but he does care. If he never did he wouldn’t have stood for Parliament on Labour’s 1983 manifesto - he was clearly a talented candidate and could just as easily have gone in with the Tories or the SDP. If you read some of his early speeches they’re pretty left wing. He didn’t stop caring, rather he progressively lost his bottle after successive election defeats and became convinced that Labour had to move to the right to win power. It was a misguided view and a cowardly one, but it’s not uncommon: there are more than a few posters on here who have genuinely progressive political beliefs but who are convinced, or at least were until last year, that the British people aren’t prepared to elect a left wing Labour government.

 

I don’t believe for a moment that he intended or predicted that the Overton window would end up shifting so far to the right. After all the effect of Tory austerity has been to undo most of his progressive economic legacy. It was only made possible by the financial crisis, which blindsided pretty much everyone in the Labour government. Until that point Blair and Brown had believed their economic model was sustainable over the long haul and that they could steadily lift more and more people out of poverty without rocking the boat. If you want to blame senior people in Labour for enabling the shift you’re better off directing your ire at Miliband and Balls for not challenging Osborne’s overspending myth - Blair didn’t put in safeguards to prevent the window moving, but they actually watched it moving and did nothing to stop it.

 

As for Iraq, I know this won’t cut any ice with you, but I don’t hold him responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, as America was always going to go in with or without us. Blair’s decision might even have saved lives in Iraq, as if the Americans had handled Basra the way they did the rest of the country the death toll there would probably have been even higher. I opposed the war and opposed Britain’s involvement in it, but I honestly think Blair was motivated in large part by sincere humanitarian concern for the people of Iraq, the way he was over Kosovo and Sierra Leone where there was no self-interested reason to intervene. His big misjudgment was to overestimate his ability to influence Bush and to underestimate America’s capacity to fuck the whole thing up - it never needed to end up such a bloodbath. I do however blame him for misleading the British people and hold him responsible for the deaths of British service personnel sent to war on a false premise, which is not something I can forgive.

 

I am not an admirer of his, I find him condescending towards many on the left and utterly unwilling to acknowledge mistakes or wrongdoing, and his suppression of dissenting views in the Labour Party was contemptible. I do however think the caricature painted by his critics on the left is unfair.

[Neil G]

It will be interesting to see when a true left winger might actually get elected again, both in the UK and America.

 

I had a lot of hopes for Bernie Sanders over here, until Hillary knocked him out and then Trump knocked her out. Corbyn is a true left winger, and there’s more to him than I first thought. Would you say he has a chance to be elected Prime Minister?

I think he’s got a real chance G.

 

I don’t think the next election will be until 2022 - the Tories aren’t going to call another early election after last time, and the DUP won’t let them lose a confidence vote as they know the current parliamentary setup is the only one in which they’ll have real influence. That means it will take place not only after Brexit but also after the end of the transitional period (if there even is one) when we’ll drop out of the single market and probably the customs union as well. The Tory party membership overwhelmingly supports hard Brexit, so when May goes they’ll elect a replacement who shares their views. So unless something extraordinary happens the UK is on course for a major economic hit in the 18-24 months before the GE which could potentially match the 2008 crash in its severity.

 

More and more swing voters are struggling with the effects of austerity, falling real wages and unaffordable housing. After another few years of it followed by a crash, the Tories’ staple “you can’t trust Labour with the economy” line will ring pretty hollow.

 

Labour’s membership strongly supports staying in the single market and customs union and/or holding a second referendum, so if necessary will push Corbyn into adopting a stronger anti-Brexit position relative to the Tories once the economy starts to really suffer, which will win over more former Tory/Leave voters. Add to that the inevitable Tory infighting which will be at least as vicious as the battles over Maastricht that helped to sink Major, and the next election is Labour’s to lose in my view. The biggest threat to Corbyn will be if national security becomes a major issue, but it will have to involve a very serious threat to trump the economy.

 

As for how successful Corbyn is as PM, how long he’ll stay in office and how long Labour stays in government, all bets are off.

[Neil G]

He's going to make it more democratic by making it so that future generations can't democratically decide to take it in a more moderate direction? This is spectacular doublespeak.

No, he’s going to safeguard against people in the future doing it undemocratically, as per New Labour parachuting approved candidates into seats without consulting local party members, and the NEC desperately trying to disenfranchise Corbyn supporters in the second leadership election.

[Jairzinho]

Agree to disagree, etc, Neil. I think the man is a genuine sociopath. Obsessed with power and money and giving not one single solitary fuck about anyone else.

[Jairzinho]

And more fool you for responding seriously to that troll.

[Neil G]

And more fool you for responding seriously to that troll.

Harsh on G, he’s a good poster.

[Rico1304]

Did you all vote for him?

[cloggypop]

I doubt there's many on here that were living in his constituency.

[Strontium]

No, he’s going to safeguard against people in the future doing it undemocratically, as per New Labour parachuting approved candidates into seats without consulting local party members, and the NEC desperately trying to disenfranchise Corbyn supporters in the second leadership election.

 

A noble endeavour. I would have more faith if Corbyn, and more especially the people around him, weren't forever singing the praises of decidedly undemocratic far left regimes.

[Rico1304]

I doubt there's many on here that were living in his constituency.

A good point.

 

Did your views of him change your vote? Perhaps tactical voting to ensure he had less chance of election, then reelection, then reelection again?

[cloggypop]

A good point.

 

Did your views of him change your vote? Perhaps tactical voting to ensure he had less chance of election, then reelection, then reelection again?

I left the country in disgust.

[Jairzinho]

I left the country in disgust.

I did something more drastic. I voted Lib Dem.

[cloggypop]

I did something more drastic. I voted Lib Dem.

Kinnell

[Rico1304]

I left the country in disgust.

Every cloud. But did you vote? You could have done surely.

[VladimirIlyich]

One distinct advantage we have here was displayed in Corbyn managing to become leader, while Sanders couldn't. The Democratic party seems like a closed shop, and winning with a new party would presumably be decades away. Corbyn is trying to reform the Labour Party further so that it is considerably more democratic, and can't be hijacked by people that aren't actually democratic socialists.

The US is simply two pro business parties pretending they give a fuck about anybody other than corporations and one actually doing fractionally more than the other without upsetting the status quo.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

He's going to make it more democratic by making it so that future generations can't democratically decide to take it in a more moderate direction? This is spectacular doublespeak.

Really?

 

What's he doing to stop future generations deciding the direction of the party?

 

 

(Incidentally, while we're on the subject of doublespeak, you might also want to explain how the kind of social democratic policies that resonate with the Tory voters of Guildford aren't moderate.)

[AngryOfTuebrook]

A good point.

 

Did your views of him change your vote? Perhaps tactical voting to ensure he had less chance of election, then reelection, then reelection again?

My views of New Labour changed my vote. Not that it made any difference, thanks to FPTP.

 

Obviously, if I'd lived in a marginal seat, I would have pegged my nose and voted Labour, because (as has been mentioned) even a bad Labour Government still does more good than a Tory one.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

A noble endeavour. I would have more faith if Corbyn, and more especially the people around him, weren't forever singing the praises of decidedly undemocratic far left regimes.

Forever. He just can't help himself.

 

You don’t half talk some shit.

[ZonkoVille77]

Strontium Dog, on 11 Feb 2018 - 7:47 PM, said:

 

A noble endeavour. I would have more faith if Corbyn, and more especially the people around him, weren't forever singing the praises of decidedly undemocratic far left regimes.

Are you referencing Corbyn when you say "far left regimes"? Really?

[Neil G]

If Sec is being charitable I think you’re being harsh there.

 

...

Thought you’d enjoy that Hades. Which bits in particular did you object to?

[Section_31]

A noble endeavour. I would have more faith if Corbyn, and more especially the people around him, weren't forever singing the praises of decidedly undemocratic far left regimes.

Unlike the Tories of course who sell weapons to Saudi, or Thersa May who was recently applauded by the Chinese for 'skirting around all that human rights nonsense', and lest we forget how nice Libya will be for a holiday once we've cleared away all those bodies.

 

Do you know, one of the things I can't stand with modern political discourse is the brass neck of the right. The Tories can't adopt the moral high ground on any subject.

[Section_31]

Thought you’d enjoy that Hades. Which bits in particular did you object to?

It's because I'm a crypto fascist. Dunno what that means, something to do with goose stepping and McCoys cheese and onion.