Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Labour were on the slide up here from the late 90s, I think it had more to do with New Labour & their (Scottish Labour) lurching from one disaster to another for the best part of 10 years than anything to do with a desire for Independence. The SNP were there to pick up the pieces as a 'left wing party' & managed to plug their independence idea so much on the back of their rise to prominence that they eventually got their referendum.

 

Labour are absolutely dead in the water up here.

"I didn't leave Labour. Labour left me."

Mhairi Black

[Denny Crane]

Good to see Ken Clarke chirping up won't be long before we see Redwood and co making life tough for May.

 

For all the talk of what Labour must do. A lot will depend on how the tories fail. Labour need the libdems to do better and the Tories to infight noone seems to know what how things will play out with ukip.

 

When Blair took over as Labour leader in 94 apparently Labour already had a 20 point lead in the polls. Sleaze, cash for questions and all that. Maybe as good as oppositions are you really need the other side to fall apart.

 

Ken Clarke, the MP for Rushcliffe, claimed "nobody" in the government has a plan to get Britain out of the EU.

 

The Remain campaigner said: "Nobody in the government has the first idea of what they're going to do next on the Brexit front."

 

He also hit out at the ‘Three Brexiteers’ , Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox, suggesting they were unable to work together.

 

He added: “Whatever is negotiated will be denounced by the ultra-Eurosceptics as a betrayal… Theresa May has had the misfortune of taking over at the most impossible time. She faces an appalling problem of trying to get these ‘Three Brexiteers’ to agree.

[Scooby Dudek]

Fair points.

 

I honestly think the Miliband era showed a party whose key members thought time in opposition would be easier. There seemed a general feeling that whoever was in would have to cut services and then would be out of power for years, so they half arsed it for a while with Miliband.

Exactly, the last two elections there was no alternative to the austerity agenda. Hence Tory or Tory lite.

Labour wanted to be "responsible" but didn't want to be seen to cut services (hence the abstaining).

The irony being the Tory government has reduced the deficit by less than either Miliband or Brown promised to do during their time in office. Let us not forget they promised to eliminate the deficit in 5 years, from 2010-2015, now because of Brexit there will still be a deficit post 2020.

 

Now we have an alternative, you either vote for more cuts (but no media questioning about how you failed completely on your promises on the the deficit) or more spending (with lots of media questioning about how you can be trusted on your promises to reduce the deficit, unlike the other trustworthy lot).  

[mattyq]

 

Hmm, well 30.7m people voted in the last General Election, and 33.6m in the referendum; I make that less than 3 million extra votes as opposed to 5.2 million, but presumably my mathematics is partisan or something.

 

Of course, we can't say that those extra 2.9 million people don't vote in local or European elections. I'd bet the vast majority of them , if they don't vote, don't vote because they live in overwhelmingly safe seats, rather than because they're committed non voters.

 

 

What this shows is that a big chunk of the traditional Labour demographic has largely deserted them already.

 

 

 

Cloggy has posted a load of shit from a biased source. Let's check the actual data from the Ashcroft poll.

 

57% of ABs voted remain

49% of C1s voted remain

36% of C2s voted remain

36% of DEs voted remain

• A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension

   

• Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.

   

• A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.

   

• White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.

   

• The AB social group (broadly speaking, professionals and managers) were the only social group among whom a majority voted to remain (57%). C1s divided fairly evenly; nearly two thirds of C2DEs (64%) voted to leave the EU.

Pretty conclusive.

 

 

I can't help it if the facts support my arguments. It's what happens when you form arguments based on the facts.

Mate, those stats of yours are all over the place..it's really difficult to draw definitive conclusions

The Data that Cloggy posted is from the same source as yours ie Ashcroft

ABC1s make up 53% of the adult population and a lot more of them vote than C2 and DEs and so there were more Leave votes from the ABC1s than the C2s and DEs even though the percentage of Remain was higher 

My feeling on why Leave won was, essentially, down to the Remain campaign being hopeless and really really poor

[Hades]

Everyone is talking round the issue, which is that massive swathes of the white working class are both left wing and out and out racists. Good luck squaring that circle.

 

They aren't racist. It's that they're getting none of the benefits of exploiting immigrants, and all of the downsides. If they owned 4 properties and were seeing rental prices constantly going through the roof they'd love immigrants. In short, the left are miffed that they don't get to exploit immigration for their own benefit as the rich do. It's just a form of bullying, going after the easy target rather than the real problem, rather like kicking the cat after being yelled at by the boss. Likewise, religious violence is rarely about religions. But then you'd find that a hard concept to understand without knowing Marxist historical materialism. 

[polymerpunkah]

I think it's as much a case of being convinced by the boss that the cat is to blame in the first place.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I think it's as much a case of being convinced by the boss that the cat is to blame in the first place.

It's probably a poor analogy, because cats usually are to blame.

 

Cats are cunts.

[VladimirIlyich]

It's probably a poor analogy, because cats usually are to blame.

 

Cats are cunts.

Always pays to be top dog.

[Jairzinho]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-plotters-blairites-mps-learn-lessons-unite-party-last-few-months-a7338136.html

 

The Labour plotters are right: it‘s definitely Jeremy Corbyn who needs to ‘learn lessons’ from the last few months

 

The plotters made an important point: that Corbyn must ‘reach out’. Instead of being divisive, as he was last time by offering them jobs in the shadow cabinet from which they resigned, he should let them pick their own jobs, and if they don’t fancy doing them one day, let them bring in games

 

 

Well, that was a highly successful three-month campaign to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. There’s nothing like spending all summer on a project that proves worthwhile and repays the effort.

 

If Angela Eagle and Owen Smith were generals in a medieval army, they would report back to their commander: “We fired incessantly for three months and have brought such damage to our opponent’s army they now have 100,000 more soldiers than when we started, sir. And I’m not sure how, but although we’re fighting in Belgium, we seem to have given them Wales.”

 

Corbyn should ask them to do it every year; by 2025 he’d be crowned King of Europe.

 

Even more impressive was the way the plotters all agreed, after the result, that “this shows the lessons Jeremy needs to learn, and he has to reach out”.

 

Next they’ll ask Owen Smith to fight Tyson Fury, and as Owen is dragged away by paramedics, Stephen Kinnock will announce: “This shows the lessons Tyson has to learn. From now on he needs to look more skinny and wear glasses and reach out if he knows what’s good for him”.

 

This is an exciting development in democracy, that the side who won the least number of votes decides what the lessons are that have to be learned. Maybe this is how the anti-Corbyn section of Labour hopes to govern after a general election. They’ll say to the Tories: “As you won a majority of 190, you have to learn to reach out and fill your cabinet with me and my mates”.

Even so, the plotters made an important point: that Corbyn must reach out to those who already tried to unite the party by calling him a moronic pitiful unelectable pile of steaming goat sick for the last year.

 

Instead of being divisive, as he was last time by offering them jobs in the shadow Cabinet from which they resigned, he should let them pick their own jobs, and if they don’t fancy doing them one day, let them bring in games.

 

All the plotters agreed on the need for unity, and many of them displayed that straight away by not turning up to Corbyn’s speech. But Corbyn himself ruined the unity by turning up to it himself, rather than uniting with his colleagues by saying he couldn’t be bothered to say anything so he was popping down the pub.

 

Others will prove their loyalty as they did before, by texting helpful snippets of information to journalists from meetings, such as: “OMG! Apparently Corbyn wants to abolish the army and replace it with a salad”.

 

The other demand from the side celebrating its achievement of getting fewer votes than someone they say is unelectable is there can be no threats of deselection. There should be no half measures with this; if Jess Phillips announces: “I’d rather vote for Donald Trump than Corbyn, that’s why I broke into his house and poisoned his fish”, that’s her right as a loyal party member and any talk of deselection would be divisive.

 

The next issue Corbyn must address now he’s been humbled by winning the election is the problem of all these new members. For example, an investigation into Liverpool Riverside complains there has been “an explosion in membership” which now “meets several times a month”.

 

That sounds sinister, because when has there ever been any need to do two things in a month?

 

And what are they all doing, joining like that? No wonder proper Labour members are suspicious. They should have to pass a test, clambering across an assault course, or swimming through piranhas.

 

As any business leader will confirm, there’s nothing more damaging to an enterprise than an explosion in people demanding your product. This is why Bill Gates always insists, when a new version of Microsoft Windows comes out, that anyone who asks for one is told they can’t have it as they’re almost certainly a member of the Workers Revolutionary Party.

 

One MP grumbled: “It’s all right these new people joining, but will they go knocking on doors at the election?” We can’t know the answer to that, which is why the best way to ensure they’re enthusiastic enough to knock on doors is to tell them they’re all infiltrating scum and they can sod off somewhere else with their several meetings a month.

 

If they still join, they should have to prove their loyalty by not only knocking on doors, but when someone answers, say: “Our leader’s unelectable so I don’t know why I’m bothering”.

 

But most importantly, not one of the plotters has fallen into the trap of accepting they may have made the odd mistake, and perhaps shouldn’t have all resigned to get rid of their elected leader, or whined too many people have joined their party, or gone to court to ban their own voters, or insisted people supported Corbyn because they’d had their arm twisted by Trotskyists, because it’s obviously Corbyn that needs to learn the lessons from the result.

 

Some MPs will soon resume their commitment to unity by insisting Corbyn is hopeless, on every TV station, one by one through the news channels, the cartoon channels and the GOD channels. Then on a porn channel, John Mann will knock on a door to say: “Hope you’ll be voting Labour in the council by-election”. But a woman in rubber will reply: “I certainly won’t be voting for you”, so he’ll say: “I suppose that’s because we’ve been very, very bad and chosen an unelectable leader”, then lay down and scream: “We’ve been so irresponsible by saying we’ll renationalise the Royal Mail!” while getting thrashed on the arse with an egg whisk.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Did I read that right?

 

Did Cooper, Benn and Smeeth and that shower really hold an event in The Liverpool? The place is a shithole. Don't get me wrong; I like it because it's dreadful. It's poky and dark and the layout is wrong for any group of more than 5 people. Best of all, it has the worst karaoke in the city. (As you can imagine, that's up against some pretty stiff opposition.)

 

What a fitting end to the failed coup.

[dennis tooth]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-poll-puts-labour-ahead-of-tories-for-first-time-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader-a6937926.html

 

New poll puts Labour ahead of Tories for first time since Jeremy Corbyn became leader

YouGov’s director says the Conservatives’ 'Euro squabbles' are 'hurting the party’s image'

 

Sugar rape has gone quiet these days.

[Stickman]

Did I read that right?

 

Did Cooper, Benn and Smeeth and that shower really hold an event in The Liverpool? The place is a shithole. Don't get me wrong; I like it because it's dreadful. It's poky and dark and the layout is wrong for any group of more than 5 people. Best of all, it has the worst karaoke in the city. (As you can imagine, that's up against some pretty stiff opposition.)

 

What a fitting end to the failed coup.

 

 

Looks like they couldn't even get in The Liverpool and besides I thought Benn was teetotal? ....or maybe he's just asking everyone what they want?

 

 

 

Bit different to Jeremy's outdoor rally

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

Is that Sonia Jackson next to that cunting hanging basket.

[cloggypop]

 

 

 

Cloggy has posted a load of shit from a biased source. Let's check the actual data from the Ashcroft poll.

 

 

 

If you had actually taken any notice of it rather than instantly dismiss it due to your massive bias you will have noticed that the data used is taken from Ashcroft.

[cloggypop]

Looks like they couldn't even get in The Liverpool and besides I thought Benn was teetotal? ....or maybe he's just asking everyone what they want?

 

 

 

Bit different to Jeremy's outdoor rally

 

 

They should have gone down Kozy's.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Interesting that Michael Mansfield says he'd chair the child abuse inquiry. One journalist in the guardian was saying we should forget the whole thing and focus on future victims. The whole thing has been a farce, it makes the establishment look even worse.

[Strontium]

If you had actually taken any notice of it rather than instantly dismiss it due to your massive bias you will have noticed that the data used is taken from Ashcroft.

 

I posted the actual data direct from source. You posted the data when twisted through the prism of the Express. Welcome to the point.

[cloggypop]

I posted the actual data direct from source. You posted the data when twisted through the prism of the Express. Welcome to the point.

You have attempted to prove an Oxford professor wrong by quoting from the same source he had actually used. Well done.

 

The Express was not used as a source but to state that even The Express did not believe the shite you had posted. Even The Express.

[Strontium]

You have attempted to prove an Oxford professor wrong by quoting from the same source he had actually used. Well done.

 

Not my fault if an Oxford professor can't even read basic data, is it.

 

The data couldn't be any clearer, the lower social classes voted overwhewlmingly to leave, the higher classes to stay, and the middle were split.

[cloggypop]

[Strontium]

The key word being "argues". Opinion, not fact.

 

I could really bore us all to tears by posting a dozen other sources that make the same argument as me, but I don't think anyone has the appetite for that.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Looks like they couldn't even get in The Liverpool and besides I thought Benn was teetotal? ....or maybe he's just asking everyone what they want?

 

 

 

 

 

Not even outside the front door.  That's round the back, by the bins.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The key word being "argues". Opinion, not fact.

 

I could really bore us all to tears by posting a dozen other sources that make the same argument as me, but I don't think anyone has the appetite for that.

"59% of all Leave voters were in social classes A, B or C1"

 

That's not an opinion.  It's either a fact or a lie.  

 

I see no reason to think it's a lie.  Danny Dorling is an academic, with a reputation to think about, doing a piece for a reputable news programme.  If he were to lie there, he would easily get called out on it.  I'm not aware of this happening.  In any case, what he's saying passes my "smell test" - it seems plausible enough for me not to waste time and effort chasing up the raw data.

 

Do you want to call him out on a lie or are you prepared to accept that it's a fact, not an opinion?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-speech-the-establishment-nhs-privisation-a7338186.html

 

 

Jeremy Corbyn's conference speech yesterday underlined exactly why he has been subjected to a ferocious smear campaign. We have heard an endless catalogue of critiques: That Corbyn lacks leadership; that he is not electable; that Labour has become a protest party infiltrated by the far left. Yet the real reason behind these attacks is that Corbyn is a clear and present danger to powerful, vested interests.

 

For the first time in a generation, a Labour leader is truly challenging the cosy political consensus extending through the Thatcher-Blair-Cameron axis. The policies taking shape represent a clean break from several decades of deregulated free market economics.

 

Corbyn has positioned Labour as an anti-austerity party. He emphasised that the financial sector caused the 2008 crisis not public spending. This is important as Miliband and Balls mystifyingly failed to make this argument. One can only surmise that they were eager not to offend the City of London.

 

Corbyn promised to reverse privatisation of public services. This would mean renationalisation of the railways. It would mean restoring a public NHS reversing its privatisation and conversion into a private health insurance system.

It would mean an end to the outsourcing of council services. It would mean returning public services into public hands. And none of this is radical. Polling shows the majority of the public, including Conservative voters, is in favour.

 

It is no surprise that Richard Branson and Virgin seemingly used Traingate in an attempt to discredit Corbyn. Virgin would stand to lose billions in contracts if such policies went ahead. As would many other corporate interests - the likes of Serco, G4S, Capita and Unitedhealth to name a few.

 

Corbyn promised Labour will build enough social housing and regulate the housing market. Again, property developers, investors and construction firms would stand to lose from the restoration of housing as a social good rather than a financial instrument.

 

Corbyn vowed that bankers and financial speculators cannot be allowed to wreak havoc again. Regulation of the financial sector will have the City running scared - the party may well be truly over for them. Deregulated finance has resulted in industrial scale corruption profiting a tiny elite at the expense of ordinary people. This was evident not only during the crash but in the raft of scandals since, including LIBOR and PPI. 

 

Corbyn added that the wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes. Labour would take effective steps to end tax avoidance and evasion. This would need to start with winding down the offshore empire much of which comes under the influence of the UK and the City of London. 

 

Corbyn highlighted the grotesque inequalities driven by neoliberalism. The result has seen millions of ordinary people abandoned by a system that does not work for them. Here, Corbyn again broke with the consensus pointing out that immigration is not to blame. Scapegoating of migrants is convenient for elites keen to distract from the damage that they are causing. Corbyn emphasised that it is exploitative corporations, which are to blame for low wages not migrants. Over-stretched public services are down to Conservative cuts not immigration. However, after years of xenophobic anti-migrant rhetoric, winning this argument will require plenty of hard work.

 

On the economy, Corbyn promised investment with £500bn of public spending and a national investment bank. He also promised investment in research and development, education and skilling up of the workforce.

 

Yet none of this is especially controversial. Much of it is increasingly accepted as common sense amongst economists.

It is Corbyn's reset on foreign policy, which is truly intolerable for the establishment.

 

Corbyn spoke of a peaceful and just foreign policy. There would be no more imperial wars destroying the lives of millions; generating terrorism and migration crises. Arms sales to countries committing war crimes would be banned starting with Saudi Arabia. This will have set alarm bells ringing amongst the nexus of intelligence agencies, defence contractors and corporates. Corbyn is directly challenging the Atlanticist relationship paramount to the US-UK establishment and its global hegemony, particularly in the Middle East.

 

It is no surprise that the Conservatives and their mainstream media cheerleaders have therefore attacked Corbyn. The most damaging attacks, though, have come from his parliamentary party. The process of disentangling from the New Labour machine captured by corporate interests may still generate more damage.

 

As Corbyn and McDonnell have both made abundantly clear, socialism is no longer a dirty word. Corbyn's Labour - the largest party in Western Europe - is powering forward with a vision of forward-looking 21st century socialism.

[Rushies tash]

Wish I could rep that article twice aot