Tony Barrett

[goatboy59]

I find it unnerving that you don't know that. I thought everyone knew that. Besides, Tony knows everything.

Or gets texts from someone who does.

 

Miaow.

 

I'm just bitter because his thread got to 22 and mine reached two. *

 

Grrrrrrrrr.

 

* this one has gone pearshaped, mind

[goatboy59]

Why do you always look at the "negatives" when the Managers judgement comes into question.

 

If you hate/Dislike Benitez why don't you just come out and say so?

 

There's always a double edge to your views when it comes to the Manager.

 

And no,it's not a wind up!

And it just got worse.

[The Dude Abides]

Just to clarify, the question that produced that answer was "Are certain people within the media making too much of Xabi Alonso's departure from Liverpool?"

The eight draws were mentioned simply because it proves that Liverpool have, in the past, dropped points with Alonso in the team. It wasn't some sort of revisionist attempt to underplay his importance to the team. That would be ridiculous in the extreme, or "feeble" as you might say.

 

I was reading live, and that is exactly how i read it. Think the people who read it wrong are going to be those who DO blame everything that's gone wrong this season on Xabi going.

 

Lucas on the other hand it completely shite, nowhere near the level needed. And even with Aquilani nearing fitness, still an area we need to strengthen.

[Durango]

And it just got worse.

Why's that?

[The 5th Benitel]

I`m confused, I thought we were being outplayed like ever in midfield against Chelsea just like we were against the mancs last season.

 

The reason we beat the mancs ahd fuck all to do wih Lucas-Mascherano in midfield but everything to do with Torres and Gerrard being outstanding and this meant the mancs had to chase the game in the second half which again gave even more time and space for Torres and Gerrard.

 

Alonso have been our most important player for how the team performs since 2004 so its nothing new at all.

 

But maybe his permanent absence have made it just more obvious and even obvious for your regular pundit.

 

 

A lot of that is absolute horseshit. We were fine in midfield on Sunday until we got caught out of position. Before that they barely threatened our defence so the midfield must have been doing something right. Virtually all of their attacks were broken up before they got close to our goal.

 

However, i have to give special mention to the notion that Alonso has been more important than Gerrard over the last 5 years. You really should give yourself a pat on the back for that one. Alonso was brilliant in his last year but the two seasons before that he wasn't playing to the most of hos capabilites. That's not to say he was shit he just wasn't as good as he was in the last year, even taking injuries into consideration. This idea that Alonso was one of the greatest players to grace our shirt prior to his last season in nosence. Why would no one buy him for £15m then?

 

None of that is a dig at Alonso, who i thought was a fantastic player and having Lucas play in that position clearly weakens us. However, that's far from being the reason we've lost games. Against Spurs, all 4 of our attackers were shite and we defended shite so you cant just blame the midfield. Alonso would have been passing to the same under-performing players. You could see the difference when Yossi came on. He was getting the same passes but was playing well and we were suddenly threatneing their goal. Against Villa set pieces reared their ugly head agains and, as i've said in the past, just about the only area where Lucas is superior to Alonso is in the air. He certainly wins far more headers in midfield.

 

And Lucas and Mascherano were brilliant at Old Trafford. I think stats are mostly a load of plums but i'm sure i read somewhere that Lucas completed twice as many tackles as Mascherano. After their pen they only had one real chance and that cant all have been down to Hyypia or whatever player you decided to wank over no matter what is actually happeneing on the pitch.

[Troubadour]

Or gets texts from someone who does.

 

Miaow.

 

I'm just bitter because his thread got to 22 and mine reached two. *

 

Grrrrrrrrr.

 

* this one has gone pearshaped, mind

 

YouTube - Stewie - Doing Good

[Code]

 

However, i have to give special mention to the notion that Alonso has been more important than Gerrard over the last 5 years.

 

If you actually had done that you might would have noticed what I wrote.

 

I said Alonso has been the most important player for how we have performed as a team since his introduction in 2004, not that he was our most important player.

 

Notice the difference.

 

Players like Gerrard and Torres can decide a game on their own through some brilliant skill or in Gerrards case usually an unstoppable shot, but they do not influence the whole team like a player like Alonso does.

 

So let me repeat once more, when it comes to "team performance", Alonso has been our most important player every season he has been with us.

[The 5th Benitel]

If you actually had done that you might would have noticed what I wrote.

 

I said Alonso has been the most important player for how we have performed as a team since his introduction in 2004, not that he was our most important player.

 

Notice the difference.

 

Players like Gerrard and Torres can decide a game on their own through some brilliant skill or in Gerrards case usually an unstoppable shot, but they do not influence the whole team like a player like Alonso does.

 

So let me repeat once more, when it comes to "team performance", Alonso has been our most important player every season he has been with us.

 

 

I'd disagree with that. Yes he was a brilliant passer but when i think of players who've taken games and really made a difference i.e turned a draw into a win it's always Gerrard. After all, that's what matters. After we'd had 65% possession in some of those home draws were you happy with the team performance?

 

And dont think i'm not understanding what i'm saying. Alonso was good at dictating the play but he also had weaknesses. For example, when we were playing at home against teams defending with two lines of 4 he never offered much towards breaking them down. Again, i thought he was a brilliant player but he wasn't always a points winner, and that's what matters most to team performance. You can have a team knocking about beautifully and draw but you'd rather have a team with a player who can take a game and drive his team on for a win.

 

Alonso was brilliant and i loved watching him play, especially last season, but his influence has been raised way above what it actually was by a lot of our support.

 

You cant use 'team performance' and moan about 7 draws at home when we dominated most of them. By any peramiter Gerrard is and has been our best and most important player.

[SpeedyG]

I'd disagree with that. Yes he was a brilliant passer but when i think of players who've taken games and really made a difference i.e turned a draw into a win it's always Gerrard. After all, that's what matters. After we'd had 65% possession in some of those home draws were you happy with the team performance?

 

And dont think i'm not understanding what i'm saying. Alonso was good at dictating the play but he also had weaknesses. For example, when we were playing at home against teams defending with two lines of 4 he never offered much towards breaking them down. Again, i thought he was a brilliant player but he wasn't always a points winner, and that's what matters most to team performance. You can have a team knocking about beautifully and draw but you'd rather have a team with a player who can take a game and drive his team on for a win.

 

Alonso was brilliant and i loved watching him play, especially last season, but his influence has been raised way above what it actually was by a lot of our support.

 

You cant use 'team performance' and moan about 7 draws at home when we dominated most of them. By any peramiter Gerrard is and has been our best and most important player.

 

Look Code thinks not scoring, not setting up goals and not tackling is what is important. Leave him be.

[coop]

Sorry for going off topic (or should that be staying off topic) but looking at the Spain formation last night was how i see Rafa lining us up once Aquilani is fit.

 

Strange considering that Alonso was playing defensive midfielder in that formation but Rafa obviously feels Mascherano would be better suited to that role.

 

Barcelona play the same formation with Toure as the defensive midfielder and Xavi plus Iniesta infront of him.

 

This is something Rafa looks in my opinion to be re-creating with Mascherano, Aquilani and Gerrard.

 

Alonso is a superb player and anyone who doubts that seriously need to learn more about football but he wasn't Liverpool's most important player and if you read some of the comments when he departed you would think we had lost one of our greatest when the truth is far better have left the club.

 

Tony was spot on in his assesment of balance and it is something the team is seriously lacking because at the moment the midfield is a joke and this is an adverse effect on the whole team.

 

Carragher clearly does not trust Lucas the same way he did Alonso and therefore tends to bypass the midfield and hoof it towards Torres.

 

Gerrard is getting isolated as he is not recieving the ball as much as he should and therefore he is dropping deeper leaving Torres also isolated.

 

Lucas gets a lot of abuse and whilst the lad does try his best the gulf in quality between him and Alonso is plain to see but maybe had Aquilani been fit from the start of the season it would not have been a problem.

 

I believe Rafa has taken a huge gamble on Aquilani because without that quality in midfield we will struggle against the top sides and if the Italian either fails to settle or worse continue to struggle with injuries then serious questions need to be asked.

[Troubadour]

Sorry for going off topic (or should that be staying off topic) but looking at the Spain formation last night was how i see Rafa lining us up once Aquilani is fit.

 

Strange considering that Alonso was playing defensive midfielder in that formation but Rafa obviously feels Mascherano would be better suited to that role.

 

Barcelona play the same formation with Toure as the defensive midfielder and Xavi plus Iniesta infront of him.

 

This is something Rafa looks in my opinion to be re-creating with Mascherano, Aquilani and Gerrard.

 

Alonso is a superb player and anyone who doubts that seriously need to learn more about football but he wasn't Liverpool's most important player and if you read some of the comments when he departed you would think we had lost one of our greatest when the truth is far better have left the club.

 

Tony was spot on in his assesment of balance and it is something the team is seriously lacking because at the moment the midfield is a joke and this is an adverse effect on the whole team.

 

Carragher clearly does not trust Lucas the same way he did Alonso and therefore tends to bypass the midfield and hoof it towards Torres.

 

Gerrard is getting isolated as he is not recieving the ball as much as he should and therefore he is dropping deeper leaving Torres also isolated.

 

Lucas gets a lot of abuse and whilst the lad does try his best the gulf in quality between him and Alonso is plain to see but maybe had Aquilani been fit from the start of the season it would not have been a problem.

 

I believe Rafa has taken a huge gamble on Aquilani because without that quality in midfield we will struggle against the top sides and if the Italian either fails to settle or worse continue to struggle with injuries then serious questions need to be asked.

 

That, to me, is the crux of the issue throughout the side this season. You can tell there's a lack of trust from the senior players to the younger ones (Insua and Lucas in particular, Babel when he comes on, and even Riera, who's not young) and that, in part, explains why the team are underperforming - it's as if they're playing with seven or eight men.

 

It's fair enough to say that Lucas is no Alonso - he isn't - but if the players don't believe they're good enough as a team, then we're fucked, and part of me thinks a lot of the senior lads need to put a stop to whatever it is that's caused it.

[Unrighteous]

That, to me, is the crux of the issue throughout the side this season. You can tell there's a lack of trust from the senior players to the younger ones (Insua and Lucas in particular, Babel when he comes on, and even Riera, who's not young) and that, in part, explains why the team are underperforming - it's as if they're playing with seven or eight men.

 

It's fair enough to say that Lucas is no Alonso - he isn't - but if the players don't believe they're good enough as a team, then we're fucked, and part of me thinks a lot of the senior lads need to put a stop to whatever it is that's caused it.

 

I don't think that's the case with Insua. I haven't seen anything that made me feel that way, anyway.

 

I think it's VERY clear that Mascherano and Carragher do not trust Lucas. From what I have seen, I've noticed several times this season when they've ignored an open Lucas and tried something more risky.

[Delmar]

I'd disagree with that. Yes he was a brilliant passer but when i think of players who've taken games and really made a difference i.e turned a draw into a win it's always Gerrard. After all, that's what matters. After we'd had 65% possession in some of those home draws were you happy with the team performance?

 

And dont think i'm not understanding what i'm saying. Alonso was good at dictating the play but he also had weaknesses. For example, when we were playing at home against teams defending with two lines of 4 he never offered much towards breaking them down. Again, i thought he was a brilliant player but he wasn't always a points winner, and that's what matters most to team performance. You can have a team knocking about beautifully and draw but you'd rather have a team with a player who can take a game and drive his team on for a win.

 

Alonso was brilliant and i loved watching him play, especially last season, but his influence has been raised way above what it actually was by a lot of our support.

 

You cant use 'team performance' and moan about 7 draws at home when we dominated most of them. By any peramiter Gerrard is and has been our best and most important player.

 

I'd agree with Code here. There's a big difference between the best player or the most important player for the team, and the most influential player in the team as far as the way the team plays goes.

 

Alonso was always, even when he had his disagreements with Rafa, the player that was Rafa's eyes and ears on the pitch. I would go so far as to say that we miss that side of him way more than the actual playing side. Teams adapt to different tactics, we we have had to do this season, but find it harder to adapt to different team dynamics or different interaction on the pitch.

[Troubadour]

I don't think that's the case with Insua. I haven't seen anything that made me feel that way, anyway.

 

I think it's VERY clear that Mascherano and Carragher do not trust Lucas. From what I have seen, I've noticed several times this season when they've ignored an open Lucas and tried something more risky.

 

It's probably not quite as bad with Insua - he's been playing better than Lucas, on balance - but he gets a lot of stick off Gerrard and Carragher whenever he does anything wrong. That's probably part of the learning curve, but at the same time it's especially noticeable that they both have three or four players they're happy to pass to, and the rest they can take or leave. But then that's probably true at all levels. Maybe I'm making a mountain of distrust out of a molehill of caution.

[SpeedyG]

I don't think that's the case with Insua. I haven't seen anything that made me feel that way, anyway.

 

I think it's VERY clear that Mascherano and Carragher do not trust Lucas. From what I have seen, I've noticed several times this season when they've ignored an open Lucas and tried something more risky.

 

How do you know it's a trust issue? Maybe they are just taking responsibility for being progressive?

 

[Juan Galonso]

I take it Tony didn't answer Rashid's question then?

[Unrighteous]

How do you know it's a trust issue? Maybe they are just taking responsibility for being progressive?

 

Forgive me, I would imagine that passing to a wide open teammate would be a progressive move.

[SpeedyG]

Forgive me, I would imagine that passing to a wide open teammate would be a progressive move.

 

More progressive than trying to hit a winger in the final 3rd?

[Unrighteous]

More progressive than trying to hit a winger in the final 3rd?

 

More progressive than hoofing the ball forward hoping that Torres can bring it down, and more progressive than trying to dance through the opponents midfield and the likes...

[SpeedyG]

More progressive than hoofing the ball forward hoping that Torres can bring it down, and more progressive than trying to dance through the opponents midfield and the likes...

 

Ok you win, passing the ball 10 yards to Lucas is more progressive than the ball which setup Torres' goal against Blackburn or the one which setup his goal against the mancs.

 

Fact is there have been games where Carragher has not passed to Lucas a single time, then there have been others where he has, a lot. You put that down to trust, I put it down to the game plan. Against Spurs Reina tried the punt to Kuyt probably around 15 times. Was that because he doesn't trust the back 4 or midfield?

[jackofdk]

I`m confused, I thought we were being outplayed like ever in midfield against Chelsea just like we were against the mancs last season.

 

The reason we beat the mancs ahd fuck all to do wih Lucas-Mascherano in midfield but everything to do with Torres and Gerrard being outstanding and this meant the mancs had to chase the game in the second half which again gave even more time and space for Torres and Gerrard.

 

Alonso have been our most important player for how the team performs since 2004 so its nothing new at all.

 

But maybe his permanent absence have made it just more obvious and even obvious for your regular pundit.

 

Do you really think that? In the match I watched Chelsea had very few chances and failed to control possesion in any meaningful way - with a midfield of Essien, Lampard, Deco and Ballack.

 

And for the rest of your post, I wasn't comparing Lucas to Alonso. I was merely agreeing with Milan05 in that Lucas is a much better tackler (and player) than he gets credit for. Nice to see your Xabi obsession is still strong as ever, though.

[Malarkey]

I`m confused, I thought we were being outplayed like ever in midfield against Chelsea just like we were against the mancs last season.

 

The reason we beat the mancs ahd fuck all to do wih Lucas-Mascherano in midfield but everything to do with Torres and Gerrard being outstanding and this meant the mancs had to chase the game in the second half which again gave even more time and space for Torres and Gerrard.

 

Alonso have been our most important player for how the team performs since 2004 so its nothing new at all.

 

But maybe his permanent absence have made it just more obvious and even obvious for your regular pundit.

 

I don't think we outplayed the Mancs last season. That was the most direct I've seen us is ages. The Mancs let us play and didn't get at us. That's how we won.

 

Not taking any shine off our victory there. But that's how it was.

[Malarkey]

It's probably not quite as bad with Insua - he's been playing better than Lucas, on balance - but he gets a lot of stick off Gerrard and Carragher whenever he does anything wrong. That's probably part of the learning curve, but at the same time it's especially noticeable that they both have three or four players they're happy to pass to, and the rest they can take or leave. But then that's probably true at all levels. Maybe I'm making a mountain of distrust out of a molehill of caution.

 

The two weak links in the side. It would be understandable if not everyone in the side had confidence in them.

[Ted]

The way I look at the manc away game last season was two teams pretty much cancelling each other out, but one team made more mistakes than the other.

 

We didn't win with fluent attacking prowess or anything. We just put in a show of total ruthlesness when gifted chances by United.

 

Again, as Malarkey said, not taking anything away from an incredible result.

[Malarkey]

The way I look at the manc away game last season was two teams pretty much cancelling each other out, but one team made more mistakes than the other.

 

We didn't win with fluent attacking prowess or anything. We just put in a show of total ruthlesness when gifted chances by United.

 

Again, as Malarkey said, not taking anything away from an incredible result.

 

Didn't you notice how stand-offish the Mancs where, though? How many times we bypassed the Midfield and found Torres and Gerrard? I think that's why Lucas played so well. Because he had less of the ball and therefore couldn't make as many mistakes. I think, to be fair, with not enough passing and technical ability in the middle of the park we should be more direct.