England v South Africa

[Ian Sea]

What has he done that has been so good Ian? We threw away a superb lead in the first test, and have been shown up here in the second.

 

I think Vaughan goes missing, when the team are playing well he doesn't have to do much anyway, and when we are getting beat he is anonymous.

 

Plus his last 4 scores with the bat have been 21, 0, 2 and 16.

 

I think he's in the team and captain based on previous events, not on current merit.

 

He's definitely in the team on his past achievements, which are what I was on about. Since he took over the captaincy in 2003 he's arguably proved himself to be the best captain England has ever had. Our results have consistently been good, and his tactics and fielding positions have ben inventive, original and effective.

 

We haven't done well so far this series but how much has been down to Vaughan? I'd like to know how involved he was in Pattinson being picked, but I'd be willing to bet that he would not have picked him if it had been his decision. He admitted before the game that he had never seen him play, and I think he would have prfered to have had Hoggard bowling for him.

 

Vaughan hasn't batted well in his last few games but it was only 5 Tests ago that he made a century at Lords against New Zealand. Keeping him in the team does put pressure on the other batsmen but it's about time some of them stepped up and took responsibility to get us the runs we need to score to win games.

 

I think Vaughan's past captaincy record should allow him to keep his place in the team, I'd hate for us to get rid of the best captain we've had (possibly ever) too early. I think he should stay as long as he can before Cook takes over from him, but Cook isn't ready yet. There's no-one else currently in the team that I would want as captain, the only real candidate would be Strauss and he's only just got back in the team after being dropped due to his poor form.

[isr]

My old man tells me thats exactly what Geoff Boycott and David Gower were like. Boring fuckers, but could play the forward defensive until the cows came home.

 

Gower was the total opposite to that. He was maddening at times but when he was on top of his game it was a real joy to watch him bat. It seems a daft word to use but i'd say his batting was extremely pure

 

Maybe Im getting him confused with somebody else, Matthew. Gooch? Any other dogs of war on the cricket pitch?

 

Chris Tavare, perhaps?

 

Couldn't really blame him though. The forward defensive was the only shot he knew how to play.

[sir roger]

Chris Tavare, perhaps?

 

Couldn't really blame him though. The forward defensive was the only shot he knew how to play.

 

I wonder if it is David Steele that his dad remembers . Any oldies on here remember him being brought in as a human sacrifice to the West Indies quickies. He looked about 60 with National Health specs & seemed to guard his wicket more with his chest than his bat. Ended up a national hero in the Eddie the eagle mode.

 

Also , is it Chris Tavare who has turned into a version of Lord Haw Haw in Australia as a journalist & slaughters us constantly. I was trying to recall who it was the other day & Tavare's name has struck a chord.

[longballs]

He's definitely in the team on his past achievements, which are what I was on about. Since he took over the captaincy in 2003 he's arguably proved himself to be the best captain England has ever had. Our results have consistently been good, and his tactics and fielding positions have ben inventive, original and effective.

 

We haven't done well so far this series but how much has been down to Vaughan? I'd like to know how involved he was in Pattinson being picked, but I'd be willing to bet that he would not have picked him if it had been his decision. He admitted before the game that he had never seen him play, and I think he would have prfered to have had Hoggard bowling for him.

 

Vaughan hasn't batted well in his last few games but it was only 5 Tests ago that he made a century at Lords against New Zealand. Keeping him in the team does put pressure on the other batsmen but it's about time some of them stepped up and took responsibility to get us the runs we need to score to win games.

 

I think Vaughan's past captaincy record should allow him to keep his place in the team, I'd hate for us to get rid of the best captain we've had (possibly ever) too early. I think he should stay as long as he can before Cook takes over from him, but Cook isn't ready yet. There's no-one else currently in the team that I would want as captain, the only real candidate would be Strauss and he's only just got back in the team after being dropped due to his poor form.

 

I do like Vaughan but he has been average with the bat for too long now. When he got that century he was one good score away from being dropped. He looked terrible in the two innnings so you could argue that maybe a spell in county cricket where he can get runs and return to his natural game is what's needed.

[Redexile]

Let's face it the current side lacks the discipline to be winning this series. Several batsmen got out chasing balls they should have left alone. KP will never be world class until he learns that you can also build a big score on ones and two's early in the innings - still wouldn't drop him tho'. SA will win the series because their batsmen understand what they have to do. In the first test Prince was superb- he's not flamboyant but knows how to grind out runs we don't have anybody like that in the middle order.

[Spy Bee]

Whoever said bring Prior back and bat him at 8, was that a mistake? If he's coming back it's for his batting, so he'd need to be further up the order.

 

I still can't understand Chris Read's omission. He should be in and batting at 7 or 8 for me.

 

I'd bring Jones and Sidey in and drop Pattison and Broad. As I said, Broad because his bowling will improve with a year or 18 months in the county scene. Jones needs to come in because he takes wickets.

 

Strauss

Cook

Vaughan

Pietersen

Bell

Flintoff

Read

Anderson

Panesar

Sidebottom

Jones

 

I'd consider bringing in another batsman in though, because we look short there.

[Stu Monty]

Turns out that Vaughan was not happy with the inclusion of Pattinson and the exclusion of Collingwood. It's funny really because if you were asking which middle order batsman you'd have wanted to just dig in and scrap to the end of the day Collingwood would be up there. Thought it was interesting that Vaughan said that he felt a lot of the spirit was ripped out of the team by dropping Collingwood as he's a big presence in the side.

 

I also see what KP was tring to do, even if he did fuck it up. He saw that if he could go out and scare them onto the back foot it would mean less attacking fields and therefore less danger for England. I think, given his style, that was probably as good an idea as just trying to plod about playing a defensive game that isn't natural to him.

[hamstrung]

Dropping Collingwood was justified I think. He has been stinking the place out in a big way. Just replaced him with the wrong man.

[Bourbon]

Have no problem with KP's approach; out of 8 batsman, one trying the opposite approach of countering is a worthy risk.

 

Prior for me at 7, Fred 8, Broad 9 with Sidebottom and I would look at Jones or even Harmy if its extra quick; put your money where you mouth is; he hasn't shut up since coming into form this summer.

 

Monty needs to offer more than the "holding role" - Broady does that now and gets you the runs back with the bat, is a terrific competitor and possesses genuine Test-level mental toughness.

 

As an extra batsman, take you pick from Shah, Rob Key ( may fave) or Ravi B.

[longballs]

KP is ace, he was playing his natural game but... it was just the timing of the dismissal 2 overs before lunch which made the shot selection more frustrating

[Spy Bee]

I can't believe all you mongs defending Pietersen. He was fucking stupid. Nobody is saying he should play like Boycott; by all means hit the bad ball, but he was arrogant, egotistical and stupid.

 

Picking the Aussie roofer was totally wrong too. I feel sorry for the lad, but I can see no logic in picking him.

[redjohn]

Also , is it Chris Tavare who has turned into a version of Lord Haw Haw in Australia as a journalist & slaughters us constantly. I was trying to recall who it was the other day & Tavare's name has struck a chord.

 

 

It's not Tavare, it's Peter Roebuck. According to Wikipedia, Tavare is a biology teacher.

[sir roger]

It's not Tavare, it's Peter Roebuck. According to Wikipedia, Tavare is a biology teacher.

 

Thanks RJ - wasn't he a Somerset player ? if so I wonder what Botham thinks of his contributions

 

I'll rep you if I can for putting me out of my misery

[redjohn]

Thanks RJ - wasn't he a Somerset player ? if so I wonder what Botham thinks of his contributions

 

He was but now lives in Australia where he is a journalist.

 

Botham hated him as I think he had a part in Somerser's decision not to renew Viv Richards and Joel Garners' contracts as he wanted the county to bring in young players. Botham was against this and eventually left to join Worcestershire when Richards and Garner left. I think Botham told him in future stay out of his sight and Richards accused him of treachery.

[A_S]

I can't believe all you mongs defending Pietersen. He was fucking stupid. Nobody is saying he should play like Boycott; by all means hit the bad ball, but he was arrogant, egotistical and stupid.

Picking the Aussie roofer was totally wrong too. I feel sorry for the lad, but I can see no logic in picking him.

 

Have any of the selectors actually explained why they made such an odd decision in selecting Pattison? I know I made the point he'd played in a strong state team in Victoria during the most recent Australian summer, but of course he's going to say yes to a Test call-up, who wouldn't?!? I'll bet he was like everyone else and didn't see it coming. You're right though, it wasn't his fault that the team performed the way it did. Making 203 batting first has very little to do with a bowler, despite what people might want to say about his selection upsetting team morale, etc.

[Dirk]

I can't believe all you mongs defending Pietersen. He was fucking stupid. Nobody is saying he should play like Boycott; by all means hit the bad ball, but he was arrogant, egotistical and stupid.

 

Picking the Aussie roofer was totally wrong too. I feel sorry for the lad, but I can see no logic in picking him.

 

Agreed on Pattinson but he's not Australian, despite what some are saying I think the lad's English. He has English parents, moved when he was 4 and I read in one of the papers that he's not an Australian national but a British national, always has been. Now, I don't know if that's true but if it is, the lad is English.

[hamstrung]

Agreed on Pattinson but he's not Australian, despite what some are saying I think the lad's English. He has English parents, moved when he was 4 and I read in one of the papers that he's not an Australian national but a British national, always has been. Now, I don't know if that's true but if it is, the lad is English.

 

He's probably a dual national, like my good self. If he moved when he was 4, he would have qualified when he was 7. Makes sense to do it, if only for the sake of making travel easier.

[wiiksie]

Simon Jones not selected for the third test, but Steve Harmison is:

 

England squad for the third Test against South Africa:

 

MP Vaughan (capt, Yorkshire), AN Cook (Essex), AJ Strauss (Middlesex), KP Pietersen (Hampshire), IR Bell (Warwickshire), PD Collingwood (Durham), A Flintoff (Lancashire), TR Ambrose (wkt, Warwickshire), SCJ Broad (Nottinghamshire), RJ Sidebottom (Nottinghamshire), SJ Harmison (Durham), JM Anderson (Lancashire), MS Panesar (Northamptonshire).

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

A surprising recall for Harmy that is. he has been bowling better of late, but still a surprise inclusion for my money. Who drops out if he is recalled? Ryan Sidey looks as though he will be fit, Broad and Monty will be in the team and Anderson hasn't done much wrong of late. Seems daft to include Harmy in the 13 if he isn't going to play.

[wiiksie]

A surprising recall for Harmy that is. he has been bowling better of late, but still a surprise inclusion for my money. Who drops out if he is recalled? Ryan Sidey looks as though he will be fit, Broad and Monty will be in the team and Anderson hasn't done much wrong of late. Seems daft to include Harmy in the 13 if he isn't going to play.

I think the selectors realise they need a bit of extra pace when the pitches die in these tests, Rob. And if I had to put my hard earned on it, I'd say Broad will be dropped. Just a feeling, but I reckon he will make way for Harmy.

[longballs]

It will be interesting to see how Harmison bowls today under a bit of pressure. The guy is frustrating in the extreme because he has all the talent in the world but his head just isn't right.

 

I am off to the 2nd day of this one, press box seats so hope that the weather is good.

[wiiksie]

Im watching the Twenty20 finals day too, Collingwood in to bat. Dear me, if ever a player looked out of touch...feel for the lad at the moment.

[wiiksie]

Nas just said the rumour is Broad is being 'rested' for the next test...

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

I think the selectors realise they need a bit of extra pace when the pitches die in these tests, Rob. And if I had to put my hard earned on it, I'd say Broad will be dropped. Just a feeling, but I reckon he will make way for Harmy.

 

Sadly, I think you're right mate. Sadly because its a retrograde step, and also because Broad is in the team for his bowling, but his wickets are costing at the moment...but, he isn't going to develop much while we keep going back to the likes of Harmison each time there is a wobble.

[Ian Sea]

Does anyone else get the impression that this bunch of selectors haven't got a fucking clue what they're doing? There doesn't sem to be any plan on what team they're picking, they're just selecting players and hoping it will turn out alright.

 

Geoff Miller has only been in the job a few months and he's already pissing me off. Bring back Graveney, all is forgiven.