Is it time to return to religion?

[Antynwa]

The majority of atheists I've come across have been pretentious little cunts.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

The majority of atheists I've come across have been pretentious little cunts.

 

I don't like to speak about a group of people in a singular way, but I've had much the same experience. It's like they think they're so much fucking smarter than you. I guess they're used to debating these issues with people who believe in the literal word of the bible, or something. Or maybe just with people they agree with.

[Antynwa]

I think the concept of life and death is far too wonderful and complicated for us to understand.

[Strontium]

Yes, Stronts. All religious nut jobs do that. Good one.

 

 

No, not all of them do, it's merely enough that some of them do.

 

Do I really need to? We both know that's not going to be particularly difficult.

 

 

I'd like to know what sort of thing you're referring to. My guess is it's going to boil down to people saying hurtful things about religion.

 

A question. You say hurtful things about Conservatives all the time. Are you suggesting that religious ideology should be exempt from having hurtful things said about it in a way that political ideology shouldn't?

 

So, basically what I just said in the bit you edited out then? The 'yeah, but the religious...'.

 

 

These things aren't said in a vacuum. If religious people weren't using religion as a basis for persecuting homosexuals, oppresing women, starting wars etc etc then there would be no need for atheists to say hurtful things about religion.

 

You know, I've ever experienced anywhere near the level of 'throat shoving' from the religious as I've have with atheists. It's a whole new level.

 

 

Take a walk round Liverpool city centre sometime! Religious zealots preaching fire and brimstone for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their saviour. The other day two of them tried to hand me leaflets. I don't ever recall atheists going door to door like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses do either. I think you're talking baloney.

 

And the UK isn't a tenth as bad for that kind of thing as the US is.

 

He's just a twat. I'd be ashamed of him if I were an atheist. Just the same as I'd be ashamed of people like Terry Jones if I were a Christian, or of Geert Wilders if I were a massive, antagonistic agnostic shit head.

 

 

Well, he's nothing to do with me. Atheism isn't a creed or club the same way religion is. Everyone is born atheist, after all.

 

It's almost as if you don't realise that's offensive.

 

 

It's more like I don't care that it's offensive. Because it's true. And sometimes the truth hurts.

 

That's not my problem, the problem is with the person who gets hurt when someone ridicules his beliefs. It demonstrates a colossal insecurity. Religious people should be sitting pretty - after all, I'm going to Hell, aren't I?

 

Now you'll continue to say nasty things about Tories - a lot of which are true - and you shouldn't ever have to apologise for them. Why not grant me the same courtesy.

[Strontium]

I think the concept of life and death is far too wonderful and complicated for us to understand.

 

 

I certainly have no problem believing that it's far too wonderful and complicated for some people to understand...

[Section_31]

I think the concept of life and death is far too wonderful and complicated for us to understand.

 

Agnostic is the only opinion that makes absolute sense. Atheism requires certainty, and such a thing is impossible.

[Antynwa]

I certainly have no problem believing that it's far too wonderful and complicated for some people to understand...

 

How do you not know that there isn't a planet billions of light years away which has ultimate control of our life, and our death.

 

You don't.

 

It's beliefs init? I have no problem with religion as such, although I don't practise it. Atheism doesn't appeal to me, it's just not how i view the world.

 

Not everything is explainable and I personally subscribe to the view that the meaning of life is too complicated, and life itself and what happens and what has happpend, and what will happen is just so far beyond living human comprehension at the moment

 

I very much have this image of when you die, being sat in a room and essentially being given the low down, then shown a door where all your friends and family are waiting for you. Whilst Return of the Mac plays as you make your entrance.

[PestiRed]

How do you not know that there isn't a planet billions of light years away which has ultimate control of our life, and our death.

 

You don't.

 

It's beliefs init? I have no problem with religion as such, although I don't practise it. Atheism doesn't appeal to me, it's just not how i view the world.

 

Not everything is explainable and I personally subscribe to the view that the meaning of life is too complicated, and life itself and what happens and what has happpend, and what will happen is just so far beyond living human comprehension at the moment

 

I very much have this image of when you die, being sat in a room and essentially being given the low down, then shown a door where all your friends and family are waiting for you. Whilst Return of the Mac plays as you make your entrance.

 

Precisely, the certainty of god not existing requires faith/belief just like a religion. The irony is lost on most atheists

[Anny Road]

I think the concept of life and death is far too wonderful and complicated for us to understand.

 

How. You are alive alive alive and then dead.

 

I'm going through these arguments with my 8 year old at the mo. Whilst I am a hypocrite and had her christened because I want her to have a religious home, rather than search for some wackier alternative I am now taking the Dawkins role while she is the fucking bishop of Scotland.

 

I have decided to answer her by saying No I do not believe in god and have stumbled into the position of believing in an ultimate energy source. A chemical / physical reaction that created life. So you do believe in God Dad she says. Well not a man in a cloud be a sub atomic particle.

 

I have been turned from an atheist to an agnostic by an 8 year old.

[Antynwa]

How. You are alive alive alive and then dead.

 

I'm going through these arguments with my 8 year old at the mo. Whilst I am a hypocrite and had her christened because I want her to have a religious home, rather than search for some wackier alternative I am now taking the Dawkins role while she is the fucking bishop of Scotland.

 

I have decided to answer her by saying No I do not believe in god and have stumbled into the position of believing in an ultimate energy source. A chemical / physical reaction that created life. So you do believe in God Dad she says. Well not a man in a cloud be a sub atomic particle.

 

I have been turned from an atheist to an agnostic by an 8 year old.

 

Are you really alive though?

 

And will you really be dead?

 

Infact how do you know you're not dead now?

 

but you have your view, i have mine. I take comfort in my beliefs, I don't find them perverse, wrong or unfounded. They're just that, beliefs based on the my major belief that there is a meaning, no matter how stupid or fantastic to everything that has ever happened ever.

[Anny Road]

Precisely, the certainty of god not existing requires faith/belief just like a religion. The irony is lost on most atheists

 

The belief in God requires evidence. The belief in something without evidence requires faith. I will believe in God when I see evidence. Verifiable evidence.

[Antynwa]

The belief in God requires evidence. The belief in something without evidence requires faith. I will believe in God when I see evidence. Verifiable evidence.

 

Belief doesn't require evidence.

 

Belief requires just that, belief. It can be founded with evidence, or just a gut feeling.

 

There is no science to it

[Anny Road]

Are you really alive though?

 

And will you really be dead?

 

I think it is mighty stupid to presume that a God who can construct a most wondrous mathematically perfect universe created in his own image a hairless ape.

[Anny Road]

Belief doesn't require evidence.

 

Belief requires just that, belief. It can be founded with evidence, or just a gut feeling.

 

There is no science to it

I presume then you apply as much 'faith' to other things that just feel right.

[Antynwa]

I think it is mighty stupid to presume that a God who can construct a most wondrous mathematically perfect universe created in his on image a hairless ape.

 

I'm not talking about a God, or an overuler.

 

My belief's aren't based on a god, or a being. It's based on the belief life is too complicated for it to just be about living or death. Who knows, it may well be? But I don't believe it isn't.

 

I've got no evidence to prove my beliefs. Other than my own interpretation on my belief that everything thats ever happened, and will happen is far to bizarre to just be a consequence of life and death.

[Antynwa]

I presume then you apply as much 'faith' to other things that just feel right.

 

Yeah.

 

But in this instance I make no apologies.

 

It's beliefs.

[Anny Road]

What people cannot get into their heads is that when you die you go into the ground and you make the flowers grow.

There is no after life, you won't ever, ever see your kids, wife parents again in some heaven on a cloud. YOU WILL BE DEAD.

 

Your energy will be recycled and cannot be destroyed.

 

Not very comforting though is it and no way would society function if that was the common belief. Fuck the neighbours there is no heaven or hell lets rob their telly.

Lets establish a bogus morality system based on eternal punishment.

[Antynwa]

What people cannot get into their heads is that when you die you go into the ground and you make the flowers grow.

There is no after life, you won't ever, ever see your kids, wife parents again in some heaven on a cloud. YOU WILL BE DEAD.

 

Your energy will be recycled and cannot be destroyed.

 

Not very comforting though is it and no way would society function if that was the common belief. Fuck the neighbours there is no heaven or hell lets rob their telly.

Lets establish a bogus morality system based on eternal punishment.

 

Why is it so important to you?

[Anny Road]

Antynwa you have always struck me as an reasonable intelligent person. What are you scared of? Like me where you brought up catholic, scared to have a wank for wasting god's seed while priest were bumming kids all over Europe.

Wake up man.

[Anny Road]

Why is it so important to you?

 

Because people like yourself are walking around thinking there is a man in the clouds pulling the strings. There are millions like you.

 

The sooner this idea of religion is banished from the world maybe then will we feel it is our responsibility to look after everyone and not pass the buck to the sky wizard.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

No, not all of them do, it's merely enough that some of them do.

 

Atheists don't piss me off as much as people who mutilate girls' genitalia - which has nothing to do with religion, or the lack of it, by the way - obviously. That said, religious people don't normally piss me off as much as an atheist who is a rapist or a murderer, or just incredibly cuntish with their views.

 

I'd like to know what sort of thing you're referring to. My guess is it's going to boil down to people saying hurtful things about religion.

 

You're trying to change the parameters of what has been said. You can't hurt a religion, it's inanimate. You can be hurtful to a religious person. You know, like when you say they're mentally deluded. I said that some people seem to go out of their way to be hurtful. This is true of most atheists I've spoken to.

 

 

I certainly have no problem believing that it's far too wonderful and complicated for some people to understand...

 

That's really fucking annoy, Stronts. I'm not more religious than you, I know a fair bit about physics, biology, chemistry, philosophy and theology, and I really take offence at the insinuation that you atheists or on to something the rest of us are not able to comprehend.

 

Plenty of very smart, intelligent scientists are religious or spiritual. Not believing there's a God doesn't magically make you more enlightened then the rest of us, it means you've come to a different conclusion. It's pretty arrogant, and coming from me that's really saying something.

 

I really enjoy talking to you on this subject, mainly because we hold differing views, but you've got to pack it up with the stance that you're somehow privy to information the rest of us are not.

I've not said that you shouldn't have views about religion, or people that do horrid things. I said that I think some atheists go out of their way to be hurtful. There's a massive difference between the two.

 

The funny thing is that you've got reason and quite a lot of evidence on your side, when arguing against literal readings of the bible. You really need not turn to petty insults or to being dismissive.

 

A question. You say hurtful things about Conservatives all the time. Are you suggesting that religious ideology should be exempt from having hurtful things said about it in a way that political ideology shouldn't?

 

There's a difference between politics and religion. That said, if somebody is doing something evil, and pretending it's because of religion, then there's no real problem criticising that person. However, if I've criticised every Conservative in one statement, then that's wrong too. It's not like me to do that, so I'd question if I have.

 

These things aren't said in a vacuum. If religious people weren't using religion as a basis for persecuting homosexuals, oppresing women, starting wars etc etc then there would be no need for atheists to say hurtful things about religion.

 

Yeah, that's how it works! That's as preposterous as somebody religious saying 'If these atheists weren't going around having unprotected sex, there'd be no need for us to push the teaching of abstinence'.

 

Let's be more honest here. You don't just have a problem with those who persecute homosexuals or oppress women. You have a problem with the ones who fight for gay and women's rights too. If they believe, you've got a problem with what they believe, and that they believe it - insofar as you think they've got a mental problem.

 

And that's fine, Stronts. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a problem with what they believe. I have a problem with it, too. I don't think it's accurate, certainly not when taken literally but also when you discuss a more nuanced version with historians and theologians. There's a difference between holding that belief, and dismissing everything somebody holds spiritually dear to them as 'mumbo jumbo' or suggesting they have some sort of mental problem.

 

And whilst we're at it, let's get over this 'in the name of religion' stuff. It's bollocks, really. What some people chose to do is selectively quote religion in order to use it as a cover for their filthy acts. For every 'eye for an eye', there's a 'turn the other cheek'.

 

Take a walk round Liverpool city centre sometime! Religious zealots preaching fire and brimstone for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their saviour. The other day two of them tried to hand me leaflets. I don't ever recall atheists going door to door like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses do either. I think you're talking baloney.

 

You can think what you like, to be honest. It's a fact. It's my experience, and I have a monopoly on that particular mother fucker! ;)

 

I fully accept it might be down to the sort of people I mix with. I certainly find them as forthright, and as non-malleable with their views as any street preacher.

 

Well, he's nothing to do with me. Atheism isn't a creed or club the same way religion is. Everyone is born atheist, after all.

 

I fully reject that nonsensical, meaningless assertion, as you well know. I also believe that religion isn't any more of a club than religion. Both are very, if you'll excuse the expression, broad churches.

 

It's more like I don't care that it's offensive. Because it's true. And sometimes the truth hurts.

 

What do you know about truth? Seriously, you can't just say 'that's the truth' without expecting at least some sort of philosophical, and even scientific questioning.

 

That's not my problem, the problem is with the person who gets hurt when someone ridicules his beliefs. It demonstrates a colossal insecurity. Religious people should be sitting pretty - after all, I'm going to Hell, aren't I?

 

Now you'll continue to say nasty things about Tories - a lot of which are true - and you shouldn't ever have to apologise for them. Why not grant me the same courtesy.

 

Those two things are entirely different. And, btw, I never said you shouldn't say bad things about some people. I certainly think you'd be a better person if you showed a little humility and compassion to others who believe something different to you. I'm not talking about those who use the Qur'an as a veil for genital mutilation, or those who pretend God told them to attack Iraq. I'm talking about the rest. You know, the majority.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Numero Veinticinco

[Anny Road]

I confess I think I am intellectually superior to anyone that believes in god. I have flicked a switch in my head that they are not prepared to do. What are some of the most eminent scientists in the country scared of? Why did the fancy school I went to as a kid tell me I would go to hell if I stopped believing?

Lying cunts.

 

Something created all this but to presume it is a human like being, listening to all our prayers and selectively answering those who pray hardest, or bath in certain waters is not just bollocks it's complete madness.

 

The universe in more massive than we can comprehend and will be full of civilizations and technologies far beyond our scope of conciousness.

 

To believe that this is reality and not only that but he has been constantly sending sons and prophets to be slaughtered by rival races for a few thousand years ( Well not for a while since we can all read).

 

You are fucking deluded wake up.

[Anubis]

Agnostic is the only opinion that makes absolute sense. Atheism requires certainty, and such a thing is impossible.

 

Even Dawkins defines himself and most atheists as super agnostics. Namely people who cannot be 100% certain that God does not exist as it has not been scientifically proven, but based on all available evidence are well over 90% certain that God does not exist.

[Section_31]

Even Dawkins defines himself and most atheists as super agnostics. Namely people who cannot be 100% certain that God does not exist as it has not been scientifically proven, but based on all available evidence are well over 90% certain that God does not exist.

 

I personally don't see how any degree of certainty is possible though. What evidence has ever been uncovered to disprove the notion of a supreme creator(s) that transcends time and space as we define it in this universe? What he's essentially saying is 'because modern physics accounts for many of the things which were previously attributed to a sun god by the Aztecs, I am now 90% certain that no form of creator exists or has ever existed.'

[Anny Road]

No one can be 100% certain of anything, particularly theoretical. As god is essentially theoretical I am 99% he does not exist. My faith however, which requires no evidence just gut feeling, knows ther is no such thing.