Irish General Election

[JohnnyH]

6 hours ago, Lee909 said:

Is she the cunt that I see on twatter moaning about foreign kids in Irish schools? 

Yep. Horrible bitch. She’s only got 2%or so of the vote and so been utterly rejected, but I still wonder how 1,300 people can vote for her?  Total cunt. 

[JohnnyH]

7 hours ago, KMD7 said:

I can see Martin backpedalling on his earlier promise to have nothing to do with Sinn Fein and attempt to form a coalition with them.  He surely must know he'll be finished if he attempts another confidence and supply arrangement with Fine Gael

He will I think. I could never vote Fine Gael, but at least they stick to their principles. Fianna Fáil have one policy - get in government anyway you can. 
 

Having said that, they should. The Irish people have made it very clear the want Sinn Fein to be part, of not the lead, in a coalition. 

7 hours ago, Dougie Do'ins said:

How the fuck has it been allowed to get to that much ?

The worry they have  is that if you tax them fully, then they'll leave. There’s tons of ancillary money coming into the country through them from taxes paid by staff, sales tax, infrastructure, etc. But there’s got to be a middle ground where we can get a good percentage of that. Britain will definitely be offering the same terms, if not better, as the only other English first language country in Europe, but now they’re leaving the common market, Apple will have no interest moving unless offered daft terms. So we should be demanding OUR €10bn now. 

6 hours ago, NoelM said:

 

Also, despite what some journalists are saying, their is some anti-Brexiteer feeling here, it's to do with the ignorance of most of the Tories towards Irish history and the contempt we've been treated with by the likes of Priti Patel etc.

Sinn Fein tapped into this in a big way, a perfect storm for them.

I think the relationship between Ireland and the UK has taken a massive hit recently. We always knew the British public didn’t know much about their own colonist history when it came to Ireland (or anywhere else in fact) but the level of ignorance is much worse than first thought. Then, when everyone started making it clear how bad a hard border would be for peace. The British establishment made it clear they didn’t care. They were happy to through the GFA under the bus. They didn’t care if peace was threatened, all for their daft version of “freedom”. It’s certainly put my mind back a couple of decades on my views towards a large section of that country. 
 

Having said all that, I don’t think it was a major topic in the election. I think Fine Gael thought it was and bet heavily on it, and everyone just said didn’t see it as an election issue. Yes, it’s an issue, but no an election one. 

6 hours ago, Dougie Do'ins said:

I've been reading about the crime related to feuding drugs gangs lately. The case of that lad getting dismembered was awful. It seems hardly a week goes by where someone isn't being taken out or seriously maimed by someone else. It seems like the police are either heavily involved, or to scared to get involved.

 

Get the feeling it's totally out of control and what I'm reading and hearing about is just the tip of a fucking huge iceberg.  

It’s quite bad. Sinn Fein even had to back up their long held opposition to the special criminal courts. A court designed to deal with these issues directly. 

[deiseach]

There'll be plenty of horse trading, but it will be FF and SF. Confidence and supply has proven to be a disaster for FF, denying them the parish pump patronage of government yet saddling them with the discontent brought about by government, so no one will be repeating that experiment. FG will just want to lick their wounds so I don't think they'll want to be in any form of government. And while there is plenty of disdain to go around, the most is between FG and SF. The only substantive question will be whether SF can extract the prize of rotating the office of Taoiseach. FF will probably give them anything-but-that, but the threat of another election might give SF the courage to go long. Interesting times.

[Creator Supreme]

I'm just amused how conservative the Irish Government has been pretty much since independence from the small amount I've read up on it! For what seems to be the ultimate 'rebel country', it doesn't seem to have been governed that way.

 

Seems similar to Liverpool becoming independent and then alternating between Tory and UKIP governments!

[s(k)aturation]

26 minutes ago, deiseach said:

There'll be plenty of horse trading, but it will be FF and SF. Confidence and supply has proven to be a disaster for FF, denying them the parish pump patronage of government yet saddling them with the discontent brought about by government, so no one will be repeating that experiment. FG will just want to lick their wounds so I don't think they'll want to be in any form of government. And while there is plenty of disdain to go around, the most is between FG and SF. The only substantive question will be whether SF can extract the prize of rotating the office of Taoiseach. FF will probably give them anything-but-that, but the threat of another election might give SF the courage to go long. Interesting times.

 

I must admit this has taken me by complete surprise; I'm a little disappointed with myself for not having been up with all this since the Varadkar's term.

As for Sinn Fein, wow, meteoric... last time I tuned in, it was just late night show piss and wind from Mary Lou McDonald in that striking red blazer.

 

[s(k)aturation]

8 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

I'm just amused how conservative the Irish Government has been pretty much since independence from the small amount I've read up on it! For what seems to be the ultimate 'rebel country', it doesn't seem to have been governed that way.

 

(As De Valera patiently and painstakingly mastered) Populism and the smite of the Crozier was a watertight way of staying in power.

 

 

[JohnnyH]

3 hours ago, JohnnyH said:

He will I think. I could never vote Fine Gael, but at least they stick to their principles. Fianna Fáil have one policy - get in government anyway you can. 
 

Having said that, they should. The Irish people have made it very clear the want Sinn Fein to be part, of not the lead, in a coalition. 

The worry they have  is that if you tax them fully, then they'll leave. There’s tons of ancillary money coming into the country through them from taxes paid by staff, sales tax, infrastructure, etc. But there’s got to be a middle ground where we can get a good percentage of that. Britain will definitely be offering the same terms, if not better, as the only other English first language country in Europe, but now they’re leaving the common market, Apple will have no interest moving unless offered daft terms. So we should be demanding OUR €10bn now. 

I think the relationship between Ireland and the UK has taken a massive hit recently. We always knew the British public didn’t know much about their own colonist history when it came to Ireland (or anywhere else in fact) but the level of ignorance is much worse than first thought. Then, when everyone started making it clear how bad a hard border would be for peace. The British establishment made it clear they didn’t care. They were happy to through the GFA under the bus. They didn’t care if peace was threatened, all for their daft version of “freedom”. It’s certainly put my mind back a couple of decades on my views towards a large section of that country. 
 

Having said all that, I don’t think it was a major topic in the election. I think Fine Gael thought it was and bet heavily on it, and everyone just said didn’t see it as an election issue. Yes, it’s an issue, but no an election one. 

It’s quite bad. Sinn Fein even had to back up their long held opposition to the special criminal courts. A court designed to deal with these issues directly. 

 

Christ, sorry for all the bad spelling and typos.  I was sitting on my bed feeding a 1 year old as I wrote it.

 

The final part about Sinn Fein and the Special Criminal Court should read that they are backing away from their wish for it to be abolished, not "backing up" their view.  They now are ok with it staying, but with some changes.  It's important, because it shows they are getting a bit more mature in their wish to govern and accept that not all their views are right or good when taking in the whole country.

[deiseach]

18 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

Seems similar to Liverpool becoming independent and then alternating between Tory and UKIP governments!

It'd be more like Liverpool becoming independent and then alternating between Liverpool and Everton governments.

[s(k)aturation]

7 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

The final part about Sinn Fein and the Special Criminal Court should read that they are backing away from their wish for it to be abolished, not "backing up" their view.  They now are ok with it staying, but with some changes.

 

Does this Special Criminal Court, in its remit, handle shady IRA dealings (à la those fictitiously depicted in a show like Love/Hate)?

 

 

[JohnnyH]

19 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

I'm just amused how conservative the Irish Government has been pretty much since independence from the small amount I've read up on it! For what seems to be the ultimate 'rebel country', it doesn't seem to have been governed that way.

 

Seems similar to Liverpool becoming independent and then alternating between Tory and UKIP governments!

 

Our conservatism, is a catholic church conservatism. If anything it fed the "rebel country" ethos of the people.  The church, especially in the country,  played key parts in the war of independence from 1919-21 in planning and harbouring before and after.

 

The type of nationalist politics of the current Tory's or UKIP is a million miles from the nationalism of Sinn Fein or pre 1990s Fianna Fai. The nationalist ideal of a country struggling to understand what it is as it's Empire dwindled is polar opposite to the nationalist views of a country forced to live, die and suffer, under the tyrannical rule of an Empire.  Don't forget, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail all originally comes from splits within the original Sinn Fein. 

[JohnnyH]

14 minutes ago, skaro said:

 

Does this Special Criminal Court, in its remit, handle shady IRA dealings (à la those fictitiously depicted in a show like Love/Hate)?

 

 

I've never seen Love/Hate, but that's literally the reason it was set up. The court allows the opinion from a senior Garda as to whether a person is a member of a banned organisation to be enough to charge - however this has never happened without proper evidence added to the opinion.

 

Now, as the threat of "terrorism" is not an issue currently, it is mainly now for criminal gangs.  But having a court with no jury trying ordinary citizens, albeit not for every-day criminality but at the more extreme end, is still quite shaky ground from a human rights perspective.  This has always been Sinn Feins issue with it. Dissident paramilitaries will still be tried there so that is an argument to keep it also. 

[s(k)aturation]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

I've never seen Love/Hate, but that's literally the reason it was set up. The court allows the opinion from a senior Garda as to whether a person is a member of a banned organisation to be enough to charge - however this has never happened without proper evidence added to the opinion.

 

Now, as the threat of "terrorism" is not an issue currently, it is mainly now for criminal gangs.  But having a court with no jury trying ordinary citizens, albeit not for every-day criminality but at the more extreme end, is still quite shaky ground from a human rights perspective.  This has always been Sinn Feins issue with it. Dissident paramilitaries will still be tried there so that is an argument to keep it also. 

 

Cheers.

Yes, IRA as "criminal gangs", as opposed to terrorists, was what I was referring to.

 

[JohnnyH]

Just now, skaro said:

 

Cheers.

Yes, IRA as "criminal gangs", as opposed to terrorists, was what I was referring to.

 

Ok, I understand.  There's been a very clear effort here to divide the two. We've bellends walking around claiming they're provos when they're just selling drugs and robbing banks to fund themselves while giving about 1% to some dissident lot who couldn't bomb their own fridge.  They do this to try and claim some weird "we're better than normal criminals" high ground. They're just criminal gangs trying to fly under a flag that even the Provisional IRA deny them.  On occasion though it suits the State to call them dissidents as then they can hold them longer, questions them longer, and lock them up for longer. Most are happy just to have them off the streets.

[RobbieOR]

I'm delighted. I never seen this coming until during the week when polls had them neck and neck but they have usually overestimated Sinn Fein. Complete opposite this time. 

[s(k)aturation]

10 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

Ok, I understand.  There's been a very clear effort here to divide the two. We've bellends walking around claiming they're provos when they're just selling drugs and robbing banks to fund themselves while giving about 1% to some dissident lot who couldn't bomb their own fridge.  They do this to try and claim some weird "we're better than normal criminals" high ground. They're just criminal gangs trying to fly under a flag that even the Provisional IRA deny them.  On occasion though it suits the State to call them dissidents as then they can hold them longer, questions them longer, and lock them up for longer. Most are happy just to have them off the streets.

 

As I surmised, yes.  Thanks for clarifying, JH.

 

[JohnnyH]

39 minutes ago, RobbieOR said:

I'm delighted. I never seen this coming until during the week when polls had them neck and neck but they have usually overestimated Sinn Fein. Complete opposite this time. 

Aye.  I thought Sinn Fein would do well, but I'm surprised by this.  I suspect most Sinn Fein die-hards are too.  I also thought Fine Gael would do worse and there'd be a bit of a resurgence from Labour. Pretty much the whole thing has surprised me.  Not for the worst either.  I think we needed a big shake-up to tell our usually two parties that they need to have a real re-think also.

 

I do worry Sinn Fein might make a shite of things in power though as some of their key policies don't make a huge amount of sense. The maths around their costs of building new homes for example - €65k to build a house in Dublin?  No chance. And they'll only get one go and then their new vote will disappear if it doesn't work out.  Hopefully, if they end up in a coalition - most likely with FF - they do well.  God I fucking hate Fianna Fail though.  The fucker at the party just latching on to anyone who things might make them look better.  Horrible bunch of sleeveens.  

[sh#t waffle]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

€65k to build a hose in Dublin?  No chance. 

Yeah, that does seem a little pricey. 

[JohnnyH]

Just now, sh#t waffle said:

Yeah, that does seem a little pricey. 

 

It sprays for ever though

[s(k)aturation]

 

Anything that disturbs complacent, duopolistic political careerism - in any country - is a good, good thing.

[deiseach]

20 minutes ago, skaro said:

 

Anything that disturbs complacent, duopolistic political careerism - in any country - is a good, good thing.

True dat. I can't stand the Shinners, for various reasons. But this is a well-deserved kick in the balls for the body politic. The only surprise is that it has taken this long.

[No2]

12 hours ago, Dougie Do'ins said:

How the fuck has it been allowed to get to that much ?

It's not quite as black and white as that.  The big bad EU went after them for not paying the correct amount of tax. They made them pay 13 billion plus interest, the Irish government challenged it because it means we would be a tax haven (which we are). The money has been paid by Apple and it's sitting in an account while we appeal so we can give it back. If they lose the appeal they will get to keep the money but then it gets more complicated because the countries where Apple actually sold their products will come looking for their piece of the pie. For example say Apple sold 1m iPads in Germany they paid the tax Ireland (or didn't as it turns out). Germany will want it recalibrated to it's actual selling location which is fair enough.

[SasaS]

3 hours ago, deiseach said:

There'll be plenty of horse trading, but it will be FF and SF. Confidence and supply has proven to be a disaster for FF, denying them the parish pump patronage of government yet saddling them with the discontent brought about by government, so no one will be repeating that experiment. FG will just want to lick their wounds so I don't think they'll want to be in any form of government. And while there is plenty of disdain to go around, the most is between FG and SF. The only substantive question will be whether SF can extract the prize of rotating the office of Taoiseach. FF will probably give them anything-but-that, but the threat of another election might give SF the courage to go long. Interesting times.

 

Will there be a request to take it down from the mast, Irish traitors?

[deiseach]

9 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Will there be a request to take it down from the mast, Irish traitors?

Yes. From both sides.

[s(k)aturation]

21 minutes ago, deiseach said:

Yes. From both sides.

 

So we're back to Dev and the Big Fella.

 

 

[SasaS]

Surely Shinners have better Republican credentials?