Unconditional basic income.

[dennis tooth]

It says in there there have been 5 attempts in total he needs hounding out the cuntree as soon as possible if hes not goin to jugg. 

Off topic but it was either here or start a 'civil arrests that arent worth starting their own thread for' thread.

[RedinSweden]

First of all, I'd just like to put it out there right now that threads like this make me realise how i'm really not the intelligient at all and surrounding myself with the women in my work is the best way to keep the mask up. The one issue I do have though is that I work in the benfits section and I see a large percentage of people that do not want to work, this is pretty much my own social study over many years, many years of reading peoples cases, meeting people and seeing how they live day in day out. Of course there are a lot of people that just want the chance to work and earn but there's a very large percentage of people who claim benefit because it's far easier than going to work, the only motivation they have is to claim as much as they can by doing as little as possibe. It's not a sweeping generalisation, I don't work for the Mail or read it, I just think that if a nation was given a steady income then the amount of people 'slacking' would only increase. I really don't think an implementation of guaranteed minimum income would make a whole lot of difference. 

 

But is the current system making them work? As I see it, these people will always exist and the current system hardly addresses that.

[Bobby Hundreds]

First of all, I'd just like to put it out there right now that threads like this make me realise how i'm really not the intelligient at all and surrounding myself with the women in my work is the best way to keep the mask up. The one issue I do have though is that I work in the benfits section and I see a large percentage of people that do not want to work, this is pretty much my own social study over many years, many years of reading peoples cases, meeting people and seeing how they live day in day out. Of course there are a lot of people that just want the chance to work and earn but there's a very large percentage of people who claim benefit because it's far easier than going to work, the only motivation they have is to claim as much as they can by doing as little as possibe. It's not a sweeping generalisation, I don't work for the Mail or read it, I just think that if a nation was given a steady income then the amount of people 'slacking' would only increase. I really don't think an implementation of guaranteed minimum income would make a whole lot of difference.

 

Slackers slack regardless though. We have slackers in society now who cost even more than £1500 quid a month. The basic income means let them slack some people just won't aspire to anything no matter. They won't get housing benefit they won't be financially better off by having more kids ( I presume you don't get the money until your a certain age ). I should of made the amount lower the basic income idea doesn't mean people can live in luxury doing nothing it means they can survive without work and not be pressured. One of the principals is don't give a fuck about those that don't aspire to more they get their money you get yours. At the minute they get their money anyway.

 

I know one lad he's a bit older than me and he's never worked he's got a house and gets benefits, thing is it doesn't even annoy me I actually pity his mentality. Another concern with the basic income though is disabled people, care costs I would presume cost a lot more than a basic income would provide and as soon as you have to change amounts based on people's situations you slowly but surely end up with what we have now. I suppose more people could look after disabled relatives though when they aren't pressured into working long hours or parents won't struggle with child care both could go to work and use the money to pay for child care or one could stay home and use the income as a wage,

 

I'm all over the place on this subject, I'd love for it to be a perfect solution but in reality as much as I'd like to convince myself its a great idea I don't think it would work not because of slackers and people deciding not to work but because of the way we all are anyway. Like someone said earlier about costs going up.. Landlords could just say rent is now 1500 quid a month so all that happens is we end up in the same place but an even richer select.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Slackers slack regardless though. We have slackers in society now who cost even more than £1500 quid a month. The basic income means let them slack some people just won't aspire to anything no matter. They won't get housing benefit they won't be financially better off by having more kids ( I presume you don't get the money until your a certain age ). I should of made the amount lower the basic income idea doesn't mean people can live in luxury doing nothing it means they can survive without work and not be pressured. One of the principals is don't give a fuck about those that don't aspire to more they get their money you get yours. At the minute they get their money anyway.

 

I know one lad he's a bit older than me and he's never worked he's got a house and gets benefits, thing is it doesn't even annoy me I actually pity his mentality. Another concern with the basic income though is disabled people, care costs I would presume cost a lot more than a basic income would provide and as soon as you have to change amounts based on people's situations you slowly but surely end up with what we have now. I suppose more people could look after disabled relatives though when they aren't pressured into working long hours or parents won't struggle with child care both could go to work and use the money to pay for child care or one could stay home and use the income as a wage,

 

I'm all over the place on this subject, I'd love for it to be a perfect solution but in reality as much as I'd like to convince myself its a great idea I don't think it would work not because of slackers and people deciding not to work but because of the way we all are anyway. Like someone said earlier about costs going up.. Landlords could just say rent is now 1500 quid a month so all that happens is we end up in the same place but an even richer select.

 

 

I could not agree more with this, I don't just work to earn a living, I get a very average wage, going to work gives life structure, purpose and much more than financial reward. I haven't a clue whether that would work, I'm sure many would gain from it and with a completely flawed system in place it's interesting to think of alternatives.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

But is the current system making them work? As I see it, these people will always exist and the current system hardly addresses that.

 

 

Well, the government overhauled the benfits system, changing it to ESA, depending on what side of the benfit you are on will determine how you judge the success of it.

[magicrat]

Government is ultimately always to blame. They set the nuts and bolts of the money supply. As for QE, the banks could have been separated out: administrators brought in to save commercial interests, with speculation being allowed to fall over.

 

My real point is, at 65 billion a month, it shows how they dish out free cash when it suits them !!!!

I wouldn't necessarily agree with Governments always being to blame, The system itself demands that every prospective government promises the electorate more than the previous administration as if ever rising living standards with finite resource are possible  That's another point though and  If governments are negligent and incompetent or put self interest above that of the well being of the country at large then its right to blame them. So in practice they are pretty much always to blame in reality !! Certainly in the case of the financial services industry they have to carry an enormous amount of blame for their lack of proper regulation which allowed a boom in stupid lending and ridiculous investments in mickey mouse derivatives.

 

As for free cash then it wont be free as we will all end up paying for it by way of inflation in the future. Stands to reason if you pump more money into the system the unit value of it has to fall. Leaving aside the wrongs of the whole crisis and where the blame lay then QE was probably the least worse option. Trying to selectively separate out the speculative elements and let them fail as you suggest would have been virtually impossible given the legal structures of the big banking institutions at the time. That does need to happen in the future though 

[Bobby Hundreds]

John Dewey said politics is the shadow cast on society by big business. The government is essentially dictated to by business as opposed to the other way round. That article yesterday saying 85 people own more than 3.5 billion people combined is a disgusting statistic. When you are so rich you fund and lobby for all decisions government contracts to go your way and even more money and more power gets concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Our governments and politicians are guilty of always thinking short term with no thought to long term consequences. I haven't read Marx but when I've heard people talk of Marx they say his solutions were terrible but his diagnosis of capitalism was spot on. We need good minds to come up with solutions.

 

I lean to the left but I'm not a socialist , I believe in social responsibility but I think people should prosper financially if they are successful Workers should always be paid a living wage, nobody who hasn't accumulated debts through mismanagement should struggle. We keep hearing from all the politicians all of them that work should pay, their solution is cut benefits, its back to front raise wages and by more than 50 pence, their not making work pay just making it more difficult not to get ripped off by employers. It wouldn't surprise me if they copied the nazis and removed the right to quit your job.

 

Where are we heading with the current system.

[Spy Bee]

In this circumstance, who would want to work in care, who would want to clean bins, or unblock drains? Who would want to do the shit jobs?

[dennis tooth]

Yeah a large amount of people dont want to work starting with the queen.

[stringvest]

In this circumstance, who would want to work in care, who would want to clean bins, or unblock drains? Who would want to do the shit jobs?

 

everyone, because every business selling something you consume would increase prices to ensure they get their share of your £1500.  

[Spy Bee]

Which would cause massive inflation making £1500 worth about £10.43

[Bobby Hundreds]

In this circumstance, who would want to work in care, who would want to clean bins, or unblock drains? Who would want to do the shit jobs?

The shittest jobs would have to pay more to attract workers, or conditions changed so they are no longer as shitty in my opinion the jobs that nobody wants to do should probably pay more anyway. Its also a case of technology making a lot of shitter jobs more obsolete. Improved technology improving plumbing parts or how things are built. Automated sewage systems which already exist but fuck it, there are warehouse that don't have pickers its all automated . There would still be plumbers as people will still see gaps in the markets and want to prosper more.

 

Most people are not happy just surviving on basic, most people would probably continue with the job they currently do, I know I would. Its in the papers that some people are getting between 40 and 60 grand a year in benefits, the system now is skewed as much as any other system.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Which would cause massive inflation making £1500 worth about £10.43

That's the problem. Shit needs to be regulated. It would never happen or work but like I said where are we heading to now.

[stringvest]

Which would cause massive inflation making £1500 worth about £10.43

 

 

that's it.  pincer movement.

[stringvest]

That's the problem. Shit needs to be regulated. It would never happen or work but like I said where are we heading to now.

 

if we nationalise everything we can control pricing.  Simples.  

[Spy Bee]

The other thing popular in Switzerland is the 12:1 campaign, whereby nobody in a organisation can earn more than 12 times the lowest paid worker. I like that idea.

[Stu Monty]

Dennis, I've made the same choice. Neither of our genetic dna will be getting passed on and replicating. Genetic material contained within people who do procreate will carry on.

 

There's no purpose or plan. Genes that produce more copies of themselves multiply and continue, those that don't, don't. So they stop existing.

 

I've got a very open mind Dennis, it's just that you might have to consider the possibility that leading evolutionary biologists have convinced me more effectively than your posts have.

[Spy Bee]

We haven't got a fucking clue about the true nature of reality or the true origins of existence. We have however pretty much perfected the chicken kebab.

[Stu Monty]

We've got a pretty good idea how natural selection and genes work though. Not origins and natures, but the machinery of how things work.

[Spy Bee]

We've got a pretty good idea how natural selection and genes work though. Not origins and natures, but the machinery of how things work.

Well we have that Stu, but when you bring sentience and conscious thought into it you change the game a bit. I don't agree that there is a complete absence of altruism and I think that cannot be proven to be factual, although it can be postulated. The reasoning that somebody makes a decision in a split second can be down to any number of non-genetic factors, such as experiential learning, environmental factors etc. I think it's just an over simplification to say that all decisions are reached as such a base level of our make-up.

[Tyler Durden]

Instead of £1500 to everyone approach I'd go for £1500 to everyone in work minimum wage, that would be far more effective. For small businesses they get subsidised by government and for big business that can afford it they just have to pay it.

[Rico1304]

Christ.

[Boss]

I saw a news story on the TV the other day about a lady who was refused funding on her disability due to benefit reforms. She was clearly disabled and needed a specific bed, but was denied. Likewise thousands of people with mental health issues have had their benefits taken away due to these same reforms. Yet it comes as no surprise when it's announced the government will not cap bank bonuses, even less surprising is that the pro-tory newspapers aren't running story's, preferring instead to publish smear campaigns about" benefit scroungers" with 8 kids.

 

I like the idea Bobby, it's a great idea.

[magicrat]

if we nationalise everything we can control pricing.  Simples.  

And we could twin London with Pyongyang

[Jose Jones]

if we nationalise everything we can control pricing.  Simples.  

 

You wouldn't have to nationalise everything, but there would need to be either government owned or not-for-profit companies in most sectors to keep the bastards slightly honest.

 

But the easiest way to achieve most of what the goals of this would be is to have strong financial regulation, high minimum wage, decent benefits for those who need it and a strong public education system.  Which is very doable really as a lot of countries manage to hit a number of those, if not all.