Suarez: Sell or Keep?

[Moo]

Ambitions are nothing unless they are chased. Suarez will chase his however he feels he can get them. He has history of this and it worked. You are talking like his actions are of the cuff childish reactions, and not the actions of a driven sportsman. If you think he is stupid, while he tops the job he is in, then more fool you.

 

You talk about his ambitions as if they are to be admired, so please explain, what's so ambitious about wanting to go to Arsenal?

[Major Tom]

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[WhiskeyJar]

Luis' disciplinary record is a problem, as is his attitude.

 

For record money you are buying more than a footballer, you are buying a brand that can be marketed and used to market brands.

 

Luis' skill as a footballer is beyond question- as is his capacity for fuckwittery.

 

Completely agree with this.

 

When you purchase a player you get the whole package, the good, the bad and the ugly. With Suarez you get the whole lot and then some.

 

In the end of the day world club manager that are running world class clubs will look at Suarez and think: "For 50 million he is nor worth the headache."

[Dan Vito Corleone]

 

 

AAAAAAY relax guy, Suarez was bad before, but he can change!

[Dr. J]

Anyone on this flight?:

 

Suárez has made it known he is in no mood for an apology at present. He owes one to Liverpool's chief executive after the experience he endured en route to the Irish capital. Ayre, and Michael Owen, flew over with the great unwashed on Ryanair and received a gruelling interrogation from the rows behind. Aside from the question of how tight Liverpool's finances must be to send their chief executive via the budget airline (though he may have had checked-in luggage, to be fair), it was noticeable how many supporters demanded the sale of Suárez as stewards gamely attempted their safety instructions while Ayre waited desperately to put his earphones in.

 

Feck me, I would've been pelting Mickey with anything I could get my hands on but good on the lads for demanding Suarez gone.

[Guest San Don]

No need to, I just think to myself, what would san don do. Works every time.

 

The difference is, everyone here knows you are a mong. :whatever:

[TheDrowningMan]

Anyone on this flight?:

 

 

 

Feck me, I would've been pelting Mickey with anything I could get my hands on but good on the lads for demanding Suarez gone.

 

Perhaps Owen is emerging from his retirement to sign as a stop-gap replacement for Suarez.

[Hades]

Good posts reece. Ignore the hypocrisy and continue making your points. A top player like Luis doesn't come around too often and this childish bollocks of owing us apologies needs to stop. His only responsibility is to perform on the pitch. Saying we stood by him is a total lie and I'm tired of the revisionism.

[moof]

Saying we stood by him is a total lie.

 

Not sure if serious...

[therevivalist]

Interesting thanks, and I hope you're right with the apology part too.

 

Somebody else feeling bullsih is Rodgers. He says he is 100% sure that Suarez will be playing again. Is there something we don't know just yet? Hard countenancing him again in the red again though. But his extended ban does provide ample space for the dust to settle, which could be followed by an aplogy.

[reece289]

Not sure if serious...

 

Commoli totoally fucked up the after game talks with the ref after the Utd game. We completely failed Suarez at the hearing, and when he got a near record ban for not quite biting another player, far less than an English International we sat back and let it happen.

 

Yet we are now billy big bollocks hard men.

 

Henry doesn't care whether he stays or goes. He and Brendan are using this as pr exercise. We are 'ard we are. Thing is the only manager that got away with this stuff was Fergie, and even then he struggled to sign top top players over the years because they refused to listen to the shit. Oh and he had genuine success to back him up. And he let his players leave once he told them he would, long since figuring out their replacements for the team.

 

It fucking dead funny to see everyone applaud Rodgers for signing another keeper on the back of a non existent possible bid from Barca for a player with a three year contract. Then to turn around and claim we don't have time to replace Suarez even though we knew he wanted out since last season. We should have had him sold and replaced within the first week of the transfer window. Like we did with Reina (on no we fucked that up too didn't we).

 

Brendan is a damn good coach. As a manager though I think he is in way over his head, and the real concern is that no one at the club can see it, Brendan included because they don't have the first clue about what a football manager should be doing.

[lucozade]

And?

 

At the end of the day the only person Suarez should be angry at is his agent. That was his bloody job. I'm astounded that you can be as stupid as to not get the contract looked at by a lawyer.

 

Liverpool FC will look out for Liverpool FC and too right. We have done nothing wrong, not even morally.

 

There really is only one side to the story, with a lot of irrelevant posturing from certain actors who can't admit to their own stupidity.

 

And by the way Reece, you moron, nothing constitutes acting like a child more than not being able to understand your own employment contract. For a 'driven pro' he's pretty lax.

 

The clause which Gordon Taylor has been widely quoted on, referencing 40 million and Champions League qualification, did not drop from the sky into Suarez’s contract.

 

There were talks, there has to have been, so Suarez is telling the truth about that much. As the 40 million sum would have been negotiated, so talks were held and an agreement would have been reached about the clause that was to be added to the contract.

 

Suarez and/or his agent would have intended the clause be a release clause. They would not have held talks in the hope of having an essentially meaningless clause added to his contract. We can’t say anything else with any certainty but we can deduce that much.

 

So it is clear that the following has to have happened.

 

1. There has to have been talks

2. Suarez has to have let the club know he wanted a release clause

3. He has to have been on the level with LFC and given a full season’s notice that he required something written into his contract to let him leave for CL football this Summer if we didn’t qualify.

 

If the above at an absolute minimum didn’t happen, there would be no clause for Gordon Taylor to talk about.

 

So, it is probable on balance that Suarez believes a verbal agreement was reached between all parties and that his contract reflected that. He and his agent have acted in a way that is 100% consistent with a total belief that, that was the case.

 

He now finds it is not. That the contract which would have been drafted by LFC and its lawyers does not contain a release clause that reflects what he believes was verbally agreed.

 

Yes, he’ll be angry at anyone on his side responsible (the clause will be in english and so he would have needed to rely upon expert advice) for the failure to pick this up but his anger will be strongest towards LFC because he will genuinely feel they’ve breached his trust & good faith and it is possible that we have.

 

Why should Suarez be so slated by so many in the fan base, looking at this objectively there is a reasonable likelihood that Suarez has some genuine grounds for grievance.

 

None of you can say with any certainty that the club didn’t give certain assurances during talks and hasn’t conveniently distanced themselves from them now.

 

So as I said, Brendan is insisting Suarez must apologise, well I don’t think we should hold our breath and I’m not even sure an apology is owed

 

One other thing, Suarez did not lie when he said he would like to leave England and the English media specifically behind him. He would. It’s the truth.

 

He also wants to play CL football, he told the club of this over a year ago.

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The one statement doesn’t make the other a lie.

 

He wants to leave England, he hates the English media and he wants to play CL on the continent preferably.

 

However, he hasn’t been able to get that.

 

If he must remain in England because he has zero option then he still wants the second part of his wish list, he wants CL. It’s really fucking simple.

 

He admitted he said Negro. He admitted he dived. His honesty has been problematic. However, we are now meant to believe he has turned into a machiavellian style man giving interviews to the Telegraph & Guardian consisting entirely of a web of lies? Hmmm, yeah, right.

 

Why would a bloke from Uruguay who was loved by the Ajax fans but left there, why would he have any special loyalty to us? Even Carra says we aren’t a good enough side for a guy of Suarez’s ability. CL is his dream and he wants to improve as a player. He has a finite career. And the obvious irony is he is being called selfish and some kind of childish cunt for wanting the very thing, that we want him to stay and help us to get. How fucking ironic.

 

I don’t think Suarez is blameless but I won’t call him all kinds of names either as I think this matter isn’t as simple as many make out. I don’t think a formal apology should be requested.

[Batigol]

I'll not be getting pissed off with Suarez cause the club have failed to surround him with the quality a player of his deserves to be playing with. Only Coutinho and Suarez have been bought that deserve to share a football pitch with him. Some of this summer signings might be great but it's too early to tell.

 

I expected him to leave last season tbh. Was glad at the time he gave us one more year but we done fuck all in that season. Finished below a poor Everton side and done nothing in any of the cups exept be embarrassed by poor teams. Despite Suarez being exceptional throughout, late ban aside.

 

It's unfortunate it's had to end so badly. He should be leaving with the fans blessing. No side have come out of this mess smelling of roses. He's been poorly advised by his agent no doubt, but the club have known for over a year he'd want out after yet another rubbish season.

 

Carragher is right. The club isn't good enough for him. If he did say that, I've not seen those quotes myself. I don't expect him to be forced into yet another apologise by the club. Not after the whole Evra scenario. Bottom line is his replacements should have been worked on once it became apparent we had no chance of top four last season, which wasn't that far into the season tbh.

[Rambo]

I'll not be getting pissed off with Suarez cause the club have failed to surround him with the quality a player of his deserves to be playing with. Only Coutinho and Suarez have been bought that deserve to share a football pitch with him. Some of this summer signings might be great but it's too early to tell.

 

I expected him to leave last season tbh. Was glad at the time he gave us one more year but we done fuck all in that season. Finished below a poor Everton side and done nothing in any of the cups exept be embarrassed by poor teams. Despite Suarez being exceptional throughout, late ban aside.

 

It's unfortunate it's had to end so badly. He should be leaving with the fans blessing. No side have come out of this mess smelling of roses. He's been poorly advised by his agent no doubt, but the club have known for over a year he'd want out after yet another rubbish season.

 

Carragher is right. The club isn't good enough for him. If he did say that, I've not seen those quotes myself. I don't expect him to be forced into yet another apologise by the club. Not after the whole Evra scenario. Bottom line is his replacements should have been worked on once it became apparent we had no chance of top four last season, which wasn't that far into the season tbh.

I think it's a certainty that its too early to tell if the summer signings will be great. What with the season not starting until next week.

[TheHitman]

Whatever your views on Suarez and how he has behaved asking for an apology is pointless a bit like the Evra handshake.

[Spy Bee]

Suarez not putting effort in in training and going to the press is certainly totally disrespectful of the club. You can make excuses about the contract, but this guy is paid millions of pounds and should be able to get a suitable contract written up. Any apology should not have to be public, but when he's undermined his employer and his manaer then he does need to apologise.

[TheHitman]

Apologies are only worthwhile if they mean something Suarez clearly wouldn't mean it and after Rodgers said his spiel his camp went and repeated his claims to Marca and then Sid Lowe again.

[Guest San Don]

Apologies are only worthwhile if they mean something Suarez clearly wouldn't mean it and after Rodgers said his spiel his camp went and repeated his claims to Marca and then Sid Lowe again.

 

Normally I'd agree about apologies but was anyone taken in by the player's claim that he 'loved' Liverpool and always dreamt of playing for the club? Seriously?

 

To be honest, I dont give a fuck about players saying how much they 'love' the club or they always 'dreamt' of playing for Liverpool any more than I do if they have to utter an apology.

 

So what if he has to utter an apology through gritted teeth? There's no more or less value on it in my opinion than being told to say 'I love Liverpool' when signing on. The mere fact he has to do it in public is the point.

[xerxes]

The clause which Gordon Taylor has been widely quoted on, referencing 40 million and Champions League qualification, did not drop from the sky into Suarez’s contract.

 

 

An interesting post in full, not all of which I agree with.

 

I don’t believe there was any ambiguity in the contract . Lawyers and agents are paid to get that right. Did Rodger’s during one of his numerous chats with Luis suggest that we would let him go if “the group” didn’t make the CL? Probably.

 

The business about the media is nonsense. He does not/ cannot read the papers and does not watch English television because he cannot understand it by his own admission. He was booed in Holland for Jaws1 and notorious in Uraguay for attacking a referee. He’s used to notoriety which has undoubtedly assisted his profile considerably.

 

An apology? You can’t have players under contract spinning to the media that you want to leave, and he and his agent have fed the UK media as richly as the Latin Press.

 

Should we be surprised? Not really, he is a hired hand with no affinity to Merseyside, LFC or England. The FA memorably described him as an unconvincing and unreliable witness- I suspect that Rodgers and Ayre will sign under that now too.

[Moo]

The clause which Gordon Taylor has been widely quoted on, referencing 40 million and Champions League qualification, did not drop from the sky into Suarez’s contract.

 

There were talks, there has to have been, so Suarez is telling the truth about that much. As the 40 million sum would have been negotiated, so talks were held and an agreement would have been reached about the clause that was to be added to the contract.

 

Suarez and/or his agent would have intended the clause be a release clause. They would not have held talks in the hope of having an essentially meaningless clause added to his contract. We can’t say anything else with any certainty but we can deduce that much.

 

So it is clear that the following has to have happened.

 

1. There has to have been talks

2. Suarez has to have let the club know he wanted a release clause

3. He has to have been on the level with LFC and given a full season’s notice that he required something written into his contract to let him leave for CL football this Summer if we didn’t qualify.

 

If the above at an absolute minimum didn’t happen, there would be no clause for Gordon Taylor to talk about.

 

So, it is probable on balance that Suarez believes a verbal agreement was reached between all parties and that his contract reflected that. He and his agent have acted in a way that is 100% consistent with a total belief that, that was the case.

 

He now finds it is not. That the contract which would have been drafted by LFC and its lawyers does not contain a release clause that reflects what he believes was verbally agreed.

 

 

While on the surface what you're suggesting is plausible, I don't think it stands up if you think about it in more depth.

 

Do you really think that LFC drafted a written contract which did not reflect the verbal one in the hope that none of Suarez, his agent, or lawyers would spot the 'deliberate' mistake? A verbal discussion which, by the way, included a knock down fee allowing him to move to any club of his choosing? Because that seems to be the suggestion, a suggestion which is very implausible.

 

Rather, I think, the more likely scenario is that at the time Luis had good relations with the club (who had tried to support him over the Evra incident albeit very cackhandedly) and was very happy with his huge payrise and content with a £40m clause based on these good relations/good faith. There's nothing wrong with that from either party really, except now it seems Luis is not acting in the good faith intended by trying to insist he can move to a direct rival for perhaps half of his worth. I think if Real Madrid had come in for him for £45-50m the verbal discussions and written contract would have been upheld, unfortunately that's not the case.

 

edit - by the way, in case you hadn't noticed, Gordon Taylor enjoys getting his face in the news so him having his very muted say (for once) on this is no indication of anything

[Guest San Don]

I wonder how many people here actually use contracts in their working lives. I work on a 'contract' basis and can tell you what's in the contract, what's not and what the meaning of each clause is, is a game played by both sides.

 

The contract issuer wants the contract to reflect their interpretation while the contracted person wants it to reflect their position. Some clauses are deliberately vague to satisfy each party in their own way. The hope being that legal recourse over a disputed clause doesnt arise because its an expensive process to rule on.

 

Verbal 'agreements' are not used on matters of substance and instead may be agreed on for minor non cententious matters for the simple reason that any dispute becomes one of 'we said, you said.'

 

I do believe LFC worked a brilliant flanker by satisfying the player and his agent that the contract clause satisfied his requirements while at the same time, knowing it protected the club and didnt give the player exactly what he wanted.

 

For that reason, I dont believe anyone at the club, the owner, rodgers or ayre, gave a verbal agreement to the player that if we didnt qualify for the CL and a bid came in from a CL club for the minimum, that he'd get a move.

 

Why would the club work a clause then completely destroy it by giving a verbal agreement to let the player move if, if, if? It doesnt make sense. In any event, the club now supposedly bidding isnt 'in' the CL. Its just in a pre qualifying round. One can argue that arse dont currently meet the definition of a 'CL club' and that LFC can rightly say the clause isnt satisfied either in the contract or verbally.

 

Some people just seem to want to doubt the club at every turn. We saw it early on in this circus. The player spouting stuff in uruguay, the media being blamed, the club accused of engineering a sale while if you read someone else's translation from god knows where, the player had said nothing of the (alleged) sort about a move.

 

Some of these people also seem to want to believe there was a mythical verbal agreement to let the player move on. They seem to be the same people who think we should give him a new contract that clarifies that position and let him move on in 12 months if we fail to qualify for the CL and a then CL club bids.

 

Why the fuck should we do that? He has a contract. He and his agent dropped the ball. He has to suck it up.

[Baltar]

I'm not sure of Rodgers recent comments. Asking Suarez to apologise is silly, why would he apologise when he wants out? I hope this is just Rodgers trolling Suarez and is not being serious about an apology. I would rather he just say nothing other than we won't sell him to Arsenal and that's that. Everything else Rodgers has said hasn't really enhanced his reputation as a manager who knows what he's doing.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

Do you honestly expect a manager who's been called a liar to say nothing? He'd be branded guilty by his silence.

[Moo]

I wonder how many people here actually use contracts in their working lives. I work on a 'contract' basis and can tell you what's in the contract, what's not and what the meaning of each clause is, is a game played by both sides.

 

The contract issuer wants the contract to reflect their interpretation while the contracted person wants it to reflect their position. Some clauses are deliberately vague to satisfy each party in their own way. The hope being that legal recourse over a disputed clause doesnt arise because its an expensive process to rule on.

 

Verbal 'agreements' are not used on matters of substance and instead may be agreed on for minor non cententious matters for the simple reason that any dispute becomes one of 'we said, you said.'

 

I do believe LFC worked a brilliant flanker by satisfying the player and his agent that the contract clause satisfied his requirements while at the same time, knowing it protected the club and didnt give the player exactly what he wanted.

 

For that reason, I dont believe anyone at the club, the owner, rodgers or ayre, gave a verbal agreement to the player that if we didnt qualify for the CL and a bid came in from a CL club for the minimum, that he'd get a move.

 

Why would the club work a clause then completely destroy it by giving a verbal agreement to let the player move if, if, if? It doesnt make sense. In any event, the club now supposedly bidding isnt 'in' the CL. Its just in a pre qualifying round. One can argue that arse dont currently meet the definition of a 'CL club' and that LFC can rightly say the clause isnt satisfied either in the contract or verbally.

 

Some people just seem to want to doubt the club at every turn. We saw it early on in this circus. The player spouting stuff in uruguay, the media being blamed, the club accused of engineering a sale while if you read someone else's translation from god knows where, the player had said nothing of the (alleged) sort about a move.

 

Some of these people also seem to want to believe there was a mythical verbal agreement to let the player move on. They seem to be the same people who think we should give him a new contract that clarifies that position and let him move on in 12 months if we fail to qualify for the CL and a then CL club bids.

 

Why the fuck should we do that? He has a contract. He and his agent dropped the ball. He has to suck it up.

 

I actually think this is a good idea because if we do hang onto him, we need to get to a place where both parties are happy. It's no good to us having an unhappy and demotivated player on our hands. Give him a clear clause which is suitable to both parties, i.e. £60m (or whatever) to a CL club overseas.

[phc1965]

lucozade > If he must remain in England because he has zero option then he still wants the second part of his wish list, he wants CL. It’s really fucking simple.

 

whats really simple is, that only an idiot signs an extension to his contract if he believes it is likely that he will be leaving at the end of the season. if suarez hadn't agreed to the extension (and more money) he would probably be at madrid now for around £40m. instead the thick twat expects lfc to accept less than he is worth and let him go to the one club that we have an outside chance of challenging for their champions league spot and now pay up a three year contract (with higher wages) rather than the old contract because he wont hand in a transfer request.

 

the bloke needs to get an agent who knows what he is doing.