Rafa: In or out?

[ratcatcher]

I think its a bad idea to change a manager a few games into the season. definitely a case of give him to the end of the season no matter how bad the results get.

 

But, saying that, Im confident we will never win the title with benitez. He's got the benefit of having two lousy owners who will always deflect the major attention away from him.

[hobbit]

Getting rid of Rafa would be madness. We'll end up with some tosser like Curbishley at this rate.

 

Of course he has his faults, all managers do.

[G Richards]

I voted to give him until the end of the season, but I don't necessarily mean get rid then. Let's evaluate then. If we have put in a challenge and won a trophy, then that's one thing. If we have finished a distant 5th or worse, that's another.

 

At the moment either of these possiblities is open to us, and so Rafa must be given time to see how this season unfolds. He hasn't even got his best side out on the pitch yet this season. It would be ludicrous to chop him before he could even do that. And everyone knows Rafa's teams tend to get stronger as the season progresses. Hopefully we haven't left ourselves too far out of it.

 

Time will tell.

[El Rojo]

Getting rid of Rafa would be madness. We'll end up with some tosser like Curbishley at this rate.

 

Of course he has his faults, all managers do.

 

Well said, young master Frodo.

[The Chief]

Well well well, apart from one utter fucking dick, we have a reasoned argument with no cat calling (apart from me, sorry about that but it pisses me off when people complain about something they don't have to read, and then come back and repeatedly post in said thread!) we can have a reasoned debate with some excellent posts without plumbing the depths.

 

I have my answer thanks for voting. I'll take this poll as a an indicator for all LFC fans, most would want him to stay, cos even if you add up the out now and end of season votes the vote is still well in favour of Rafa.

[Hermes]

I have my answer thanks for voting. I'll take this poll as a an indicator for all LFC fans, most would want him to stay, cos even if you add up the out now and end of season votes the vote is still well in favour of Rafa.

 

Really, 8 people voting the other way would make those who want him to stay a minority. Hardly "well in favour of Rafa".

[robbohuyton]

Rafa should stay. He has already done a great job. We don't compete for the top end players that Chelsea and the Mancs sign because we don't pay the fees and we don't pay the wages. So he starts out behind - and yet he's still managed to do something the Chavs have never done - win the Champions League - and he was four points off the title last season. A shit run this season so far doesn't make him a bad manager. I wrote this piece the other day for This Is Anfield. Don't know whether it's the 'done thing' to post it here (what with being new and all) but, fuck it:

 

WHETHER you love or hate Rafa Benitez, put yourself in the Spaniard’s shoes for a moment.

 

After a lifetime living and working in Spain, after guiding Valencia to the most successful period in their history with a first title in 31 years followed up by a La Liga and UEFA Cup double, you choose to leave your home country behind to come to England and manage Liverpool.

 

You make that decision despite other, more lucrative offers lying on the table back in June 2004 – from Spurs, Inter Milan and Besiktas.

 

But you plump for Liverpool, drawn by its standing and heritage, inheriting an underachieving, average squad which looked certain to lose two of its best players in Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard.

 

For five years you live and work in a foreign country, putting your heart and soul into the manager’s job at a football club where resources don’t match the expectations.

 

You master a new language, work up to 22-hour days, change players’ diets and training methods and even enjoy an infamous drink in Germany with Liverpool fans.

 

You left one job where directors refused to sign players you wanted and interfered with transfer dealings (sparking your infamous “I asked the club for a sofa and they bought me a lampshade” quote) and walked into another one with similar problems.

 

You were told by co-owner George Gillett you could sign “Snoogy Doogy” if that’s who you wanted – but then you were told you couldn’t sign Simao, Gareth Barry, Michael Dawson, David Villa, David Silva, Kenwyne Jones, Ryan Shawcross and countless others.

 

You had a club co-owner open talks with Jurgen Klinsmann about succeeding you as manager – and found out about it through the newspapers.

 

You signed Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Pepe Reina, Javier Mascherano, Luis Garcia, Yossi Benayoun, Dirk Kuyt, Glen Johnson, Emiliano Inusa, Momo Sissoko, Alvaro Arbeloa, Daniel Agger and Peter Crouch – then people kept saying you have a terrible record in the transfer market.

 

In your first season, despite a poor squad, you won the Champions League in one of the most thrilling matches in football history. Key to the run to the final was your ability to squeeze out quality performances from limited players, most notably Igor Biscan.

 

You also reached the League Cup final in that first season, losing to Chelsea 3-2 after extra time, and finished fifth in the league.

 

The following season you won the FA Cup, beating Manchester United and Chelsea on the way to the final, when West Ham were edged out on penalties. In the league you guided Liverpool to third, missing out on the runners-up spot by just one point.

 

That FA Cup success in Cardiff made you the only manager in the history of Liverpool Football Club to win major trophies in both of the first two seasons at the club.

 

A year later you guided Liverpool to another Champions League final, again knocking out Chelsea on the way. This time it wasn’t to be, but you could be forgiven for thinking people may recognise that it is no mean feat to get that far – and no disgrace to lose to AC Milan.

 

In the league, you took us to third place again.

 

But 2007-8 was a poor year for you. You only reached the semi-finals of the Champions League and finished fourth in the league. Your job was offered to Klinsmann though, so maybe you could be forgiven for taking your eye off the ball.

 

And so to last season. Quarter-finals of the Champions League, runners-up in the league with 86 points. The only team in English top-flight history to lose so few games and not be crowned champions.

 

The best points total since 1988, but also the highest of any side in a 20-team league not to win the championship.

 

Fair to say, you were unlucky. You took us so close to the much-coveted number 19.

 

And let’s not forget, you’ve won 57 per cent of your games in charge of Liverpool, the same as Bob Paisley.

 

So with all that in mind, you deserve some respect, right? You’ve done a great job in trying circumstances. You’ve proved you are what they said you were when you arrived from Valencia – a world-class manager.

 

But it’s not enough. You’ve lost four games out of nine this season. You’ve sold a player, Xabi Alonso, who wanted to leave the club, for a huge profit to the biggest club in his home country.

 

You might think your excellent record buys you some time in the job at Anfield and some patience from the fans, just like it does for Arsene Wenger, trophyless with Arsenal since 2005.

 

Well not for some people. They’ve had enough. They want Jose Mourinho. A man in a job at Inter Milan, with a huge salary. A man who would cost a lot of money in compensation and in wages. Oh and we’d have to pay you off too, Rafa. But hang on, there’s no money…

 

What’s that Rafa? You’re resigning? You don’t feel appreciated? You’ve had enough of fickle fans on phone-ins and internet forums sniping and moaning? Had enough of media men calling you “cold”, slagging off your tactics, harping on about zonal marking and questioning the timing of your substitutions?

 

Hypothetical, of course. But it could happen. And it would be a huge problem for Liverpool if it did.

 

Mourinho, Guus Hiddink, Fabio Capello…all top managers that trigger-happy fans have been mentioning as they debate Rafa’s replacement.

 

But why would any of them come to Anfield? No money to spend, owners that hate each other, sky-high expectations and a demand for immediate results…

 

Hardly the dream job is it?

 

When Benitez was trying to renegotiate his contract at Valencia in 2004 he said: “My ideal scenario was continue the work I had started at Valencia.

 

“But the managing director said to me, ‘If I give you two more years on your contract and then you lose three matches it is going to be my problem!” If that was how much respect my three years of work had earned, then it seemed obvious to me that they had little interest in me staying.”

 

He later said: “It appears that I’m valued more outside the club than I am at Valencia itself.”

 

Deja vu?

 

It’s clear he likes to be loved. And for his record at Liverpool, he deserves to be. But if people turn against him so quickly, whose to say he won’t pack it in? It’s not like he would struggle to get another job.

 

In the first post-Benitez year at Valencia, the club finished seventh, 26 points behind La Liga champions Barcelona.

 

If Benitez resigns, or, as unlikely as it is given the financial situation, is sacked, Liverpool could go backwards too.

 

I wonder what Alan Curbishley is doing these days…

[diego]

dont think we ahve been lacking fight in any of our games

 

While I agree that Rafa will turn it around and there is nobody better than him, I think the more pertinent question is will Carragher and Gerrard turn their form around.

 

I think Carragher will - but will not reach his previous levels of consistency. I'm not so sure about Gerrard. His priority seems to be Ingerland now.

[The Chief]

Really, 8 people voting the other way would make those who want him to stay a minority. Hardly "well in favour of Rafa".

 

So you don't think 109 people voting for him to stay is a significant number?

 

I must admit though a lot more people have voted since I wrote that and the people wanting him out right now has doubled, but nearly 55% of the vote is for him to stay, so 8 votes wouldn't make much difference.

[Guest davelfc]

Rafa should stay. He has already done a great job. We don't compete for the top end players that Chelsea and the Mancs sign because we don't pay the fees and we don't pay the wages. So he starts out behind - and yet he's still managed to do something the Chavs have never done - win the Champions League - and he was four points off the title last season. A shit run this season so far doesn't make him a bad manager. I wrote this piece the other day for This Is Anfield. Don't know whether it's the 'done thing' to post it here (what with being new and all) but, fuck it:

…

 

Good read, I agree with it all. Yes we're 'off track' at the moment and things are looking pretty bad but Rafa deserves our patience and the time to sort it out. As many have said, it isn't going to just get better if he's replaced, in fact it could get considerably worse. I hope he outlasts the two bastards and he and us get the owners we deserve.

[Herp McDerp]

Voted to give him till the end of the season, reassess then, even then we should only get rid if we've done really badly and there are better options available. No point in getting rid just for the sake of 'trying something new'.

[vonk]

Voted end of the season. Seems like last year was the only season we will see a title challenge with Rafa however. We are out of it this season already and it would be too much to have to deal with being out of it again by Christmas 2010. He needs to prove tactically that he can get himself out of this situation. The players don't seem to know the tactics or don't have the ability to implement them. Frustrating, because I really want him to succeed.

[zigackly]

You can't put people who voted end of season in a stay or go camp, so Hermes please stop trying to pressgang us into your bullshit propagandist taxonomy.

[Lambo]

In, for sure. He drives me mad but he is a great coach and I want him to get it right.

[Royal Family]

I think he should go but it's a hypothetical point, as we cannot possibly afford to sack him. The 5-year contract was clearly insane, as many of us said at the time - a 2-year extension would have been perfectly adequate. Best we can hope for is Real coming in for him and getting compensation!

 

What worries me about his transfer record is that it's getting worse - he made some superb signings in the first few seasons, but his judgement of late has been awry. I wouldn't actually GIVE him a penny more to waste at the moment.

[Torvald Utne]

You can't put people who voted end of season in a stay or go camp, so Hermes please stop trying to pressgang us into your bullshit propagandist taxonomy.

 

I was going to pull him up on that too but in fairness he was replying to The Chief saying "cos even if you add up the out now and end of season votes the vote is still well in favour of Rafa."

[zigackly]

I was going to pull him up on that too but in fairness he was replying to The Chief saying "cos even if you add up the out now and end of season votes the vote is still well in favour of Rafa."

 

I think The Chief was being fairer about it, since he is in favour of Rafa staying and was refusing to count the "don't knows" on his side.

 

Hermes then thought he would scoop them all up.

[Guest LFD]

I am far from happy with Benitez this season, however I think we should still judge him at the end of the season, especially as we can't afford to pay him off.

[William_Ulsterman]

Wonder what's going through Gerrard's mind as he nears 30 eh?

 

probably...

 

if i wasnt so stupid playing a utterly pointless game for england i might be ok now. dave u made the point first.

[The 5th Benitel]

I'm teetering on the brink of deciding about this. I think Sunday's result will have an effrect on it. There must have been very few managers of top sides who have gone 3, now liely to be 4, years without any silverware who have gone down to 5 consecutive defeats and stayed in a job.

 

In fact, i reckon he'd probably be the first one.

[Guest LFD]

I'm teetering on the brink of deciding about this. I think Sunday's result will have an effrect on it. There must have been very few managers of top sides who have gone 3, now liely to be 4, years without any silverware who have gone down to 5 consecutive defeats and stayed in a job.

 

In fact, i reckon he'd probably be the first one.

 

Wenger hasn't won a trophy for four years.

[The 5th Benitel]

Wenger hasn't won a trophy for four years.

 

He hasn't lost 5 on the bounce though and they're usually at least in contention after xmas. We have been once and we were only within 7 points then.

 

He has also proved he can win the title while not spending as much as his rivals.

[Bogman]

Wenger hasn't won a trophy for four years.

 

 

And the diffences are that the media do not have an agenda against them.

 

I don't read any "Wenger in last chance saloon" tabloid headings, or Sky doing polls, or getting fans perspective on whether he should get the sack or not, and I don't hear their fans moaning either.

 

There is an agenda against us.

 

Oh, and I'm behind Rafa 100%.

 

Right man for the job, but I shall say again, as I've said before, we've more important issues at this moment in time than split the fan base down the middle over this...........far bigger issues that need addressing, starting now, do not be blinded, our current problem is a large part down to the owners of our club.

[zigackly]

And the diffences are that the media do not have an agenda against them.

 

I don't read any "Wenger in last chance saloon" tabloid headings, or Sky doing polls, or getting fans perspective on whether he should get the sack or not, and I don't hear their fans moaning either.

 

BBC SPORT | Football | My Club | A | Arsenal | Wenger 'needs to win silverware'

[The 5th Benitel]

And the diffences are that the media do not have an agenda against them.

 

I don't read any "Wenger in last chance saloon" tabloid headings, or Sky doing polls, or getting fans perspective on whether he should get the sack or not, and I don't hear their fans moaning either.

 

There is an agenda against us.

 

Oh, and I'm behind Rafa 100%.

 

Right man for the job, but I shall say again, as I've said before, we've more important issues at this moment in time than split the fan base down the middle over this...........far bigger issues that need addressing, starting now, do not be blinded, our current problem is a large part down to the owners of our club.

 

 

There was definately talk of Wenger getting the boot last year. You just dont notice it as much cos it wasn't us.

 

And the agenda/conspiracy shout is definately the most cringeworthy thing that comes from our fans. Evertonians aside, no one gives half as much of a fuck about us as people make out.