Unfair to the strikers ?

[sir roger]

Having read all of the various 'striker' threads , I find myself feeling a bit sorry for our present incumbents.

 

While accepting that none of them could be termed clinical , I feel their relatively low scoring tallies are in the main down to our generally cautious approach & specifically due to our being petrified to commit other players to getting into the box to support.

 

Steven Gerrard will occasionally appear , although rarer of late , and for all his faults , Gonzalez isn't afraid of coming in at the back post. Other than that , not much threat.

 

The value of these runs was underlined in Barca , where JAR of all people took a chance & ended up with a sitter.

 

Good defenders are always comfortable having to make straightforward decisions on where to go ? / who to mark ? , when they are confident that no further threat will emerge into any gaps they leave.

 

The top teams' defenders such as Terry/Carvalho , Toure/Gallas & Ferdinand/Vidic are very rarely under great pressure against us , as one takes our main guy ( say , Crouchy ) & the other keeps an eye out for the second striker ( say Kuyt ) while the full backs can tuck in to outnumber us if the ball bounces free.

 

in our system & allowing for Rafa's rotation of strikers , I doubt Eto or Villa would comfortably get 15 league goals per season

 

This approach is not so worrying against the poorer teams at home as we normally have enough quality however we set out to play & maybe this caution will be cast aside by Rafa when our 'galacticos' appear.

 

Against the good sides , however , unless we spend less time worrying about being open to counter-attacks & more time getting options in the box , we are never going to get many goals & are basically reliant on fantastic individual goals , and when this doesn't happen we are open to the vagaries of fate at the other end as has been proven so often in the big league games.

[Guest Josh W]

I agree to an extent, at corners we comitt about 3 players and at a stretch 4, United had 6 in there when they scored and they were holding on for a draw!

[Neil G]

Good post. Nice to see someone else sticking up for our frontmen.

[Mav]

Nice to see someone else sticking up for our frontmen.

 

 

Yeah I think so too.

 

Of course it's absolute bollocks though.

[Neil G]

Of course it's absolute bollocks though.

 

Which bit? The bit about Eto'o not getting many if we signed him? That's the only bit I'd question. The main point about having no attacking threat from the rest of the side is spot on.

[Mav]

I'm going to oversimplify this for which I apologise.

 

I like my goalies to keep goal

I like my defenders to defend

I like my midfielders to do - you know - midfieldey things

And I like my strikers to score goals.

 

Yeah okay get a few chip ins from midfield and the occasional header from Sami but my goal scorers score goals.

 

We will never achieve a championship until this issue is resolved. I have seen far too many games this season were we have BATTERED the opposition but not score - and then the other side score with their one attack and we go home with no points.

 

Then put us in the big games were one goal will win it. You may only get one chance [in fact picture the Houllier era where that was often the case in EVERY game and Owen delivered more times than not] but our strikers are incapable of that.

 

I hate stats and all they stand for and I don't want to sound like Uncle Ged but if you look at the chances we create and the chances we convert it is a pretty piss poor ratio.

 

We always used to mock Andy (sorry Andrew) Cole with his six chances to score one goal but that's what we have now.

 

If you look at the Mancs, the chavs and the Arse that is clearly where we compare badly.

 

We need a striker. It is not down to lack of chances or the other areas of the pitch. In my opinion - obviously.

[Dirk]

Mav, define batter a side? Pepper the goal with shots from 20 yards or create clear cut chance after chance? We rarely properly paste teams. We often dominate possession, keeping the ball in the final third, having speculative chance after speculative chance, creating the odd clear cut chance. Our off ball movement is chronic. I believe the game has evolved to the point where a player is expected to do more than their position previously dictated. The best attacking sides have players who score from all positions. They also tend to have full backs who consistently support their wingers.

[Guest Josh W]

We needed a goal scorer last summer and we got Kuyt and Bellamy effectively buying the prolific Kuyt and the creative Bellamy and killing two birds in one summer. Bellamy has sort of done his job but Kuyt hasn't. It proves that scoring 70 goals in 100 games in Holland doesn't mean shit in Engand. Now we find ourselves in the "needing a poacher" situation again which is annoying because Kuyt was supposed to be our 'poacher' especially as he isn't the most skillful in the world.

[Guest Josh W]

Mav, define batter a side? Pepper the goal with shots from 20 yards or create clear cut chance after chance? We rarely properly paste teams. We often dominate possession, keeping the ball in the final third, having speculative chance after speculative chance, creating the odd clear cut chance. Our off ball movement is chronic. I believe the game has evolved to the point where a player is expected to do more than their position previously dictated. The best attacking sides have players who score from all positions. They also tend to have full backs who consistently support their wingers.

 

Off the ball movement is poor but how many men do we ever commit forward? It's never more than 3.

[sir roger]

Some fair points Mav , but the prem is never going to be won with less than

80 goals scored , so unless 3 guys are going to score 25 each , others are going to have to chip in.

 

My main thrust isn't so much the goals the mids score , but the extra time & chances the strikers will get because of their presence.

 

Bit phobic about stats myself & with reference to the shots/goals ratio I suspect we are also league leaders on pathetic dribblers from 25 yards that the goalie has to walk towards to turn into a shot , Riise's harrier jump jet shots and shots from the strikers that squeeze past 3 defenders block tackles

[drewy]

Off the ball movement is poor but how many men do we ever commit forward? It's never more than 3.

 

Utter garbage.

[Dirk]

I'll wager this much, if we buy a striker for next season, a really ace one, that he will struggle if we don't buy at least one attacking fullback and a shit hot winger. We fail to create consistent, clear cut chances, we rarely get beyond the fullbacks of the opposition and when we do, the box is usually crowded. You can have Gerd Muller in his prime but if you fail to consistently give him the ball in decent areas he'll struggle. I think people are being really short sighted by pointing the blame solely at our strikers. Do we need a new striker? Yes. Is that a panacea? Is it fuck.

[Neil G]

I'm going to oversimplify this for which I apologise.

 

I like my goalies to keep goal

I like my defenders to defend

I like my midfielders to do - you know - midfieldey things

And I like my strikers to score goals.

 

Yeah okay get a few chip ins from midfield and the occasional header from Sami but my goal scorers score goals.

 

We will never achieve a championship until this issue is resolved. I have seen far too many games this season were we have BATTERED the opposition but not score - and then the other side score with their one attack and we go home with no points.

 

Then put us in the big games were one goal will win it. You may only get one chance [in fact picture the Houllier era where that was often the case in EVERY game and Owen delivered more times than not] but our strikers are incapable of that.

 

I hate stats and all they stand for and I don't want to sound like Uncle Ged but if you look at the chances we create and the chances we convert it is a pretty piss poor ratio.

 

We always used to mock Andy (sorry Andrew) Cole with his six chances to score one goal but that's what we have now.

 

If you look at the Mancs, the chavs and the Arse that is clearly where we compare badly.

 

We need a striker. It is not down to lack of chances or the other areas of the pitch. In my opinion - obviously.

 

I like my team to get goals from all over the park.

 

I like my midfielders and wide players to create lots of chances for our strikers, so even if they're not world class finishers they can still get lots of goals, like Mr Cole did for the Mancs when they won lots of titles.

 

I like my manager to set his team out so that our strikers can focus on getting goals instead of having to go looking for the ball because no-one gets up in support of them.

 

The bit in bold is interesting. How many times have we really battered the opposition but not won this season? Mancs on Saturday, Blackburn and maybe Newcastle away are the only ones I can think of.

[Guest Josh W]

It's all down to style of play and coaching. Rafa is a winner but a very cautious one at that.

[drewy]

I'll wager this much, if we buy a striker for next season, a really ace one, that he will struggle if we don't buy at least one attacking fullback and shit hot winger. We fail to create consistent, clear cut chances, we rarely get beyond the fullbacks of the opposition and when we do, the box is usually crowded. You can have Gerd Muller in his prime but if you fail to consistently give him the ball in decent areas he'll struggle. I think people are being really short sighted by pointing the blame solely at our strikers. Do we need a new striker? Yes. Is that a panacea? Is it fuck.

 

Exactly, and my how we've missed Garcia.

 

Your strikers are only as good as the creative players behind them.

[Mav]

Mav, define batter a side? Pepper the goal with shots from 20 yards or create clear cut chance after chance? We rarely properly paste teams. We often dominate possession, keeping the ball in the final third, having speculative chance after speculative chance, creating the odd clear cut chance. Our off ball movement is chronic. I believe the game has evolved to the point where a player is expected to do more than their position previously dictated. The best attacking sides have players who score from all positions. They also tend to have full backs who consistently support their wingers.

 

Alright batter is a slight exaggeration. But without refreshing my memory - I'm getting old - I probably mean creating certainly more than a few clear cut chances each game that are not converted. I do accept that we need better imagination in the final third and I believe with better strikers that would come.

I am happy to have goals scored from other positions but I still think we need a clinical striker.

[Neil G]

I'll wager this much, if we buy a striker for next season, a really ace one, that he will struggle if we don't buy at least one attacking fullback and shit hot winger. We fail to create consistent, clear cut chances, we rarely get beyond the fullbacks of the opposition and when we do, the box is usually crowded. You can have Gerd Muller in his prime but if you fail to consistently give him the ball in decent areas he'll struggle. I think people are being really short sighted by pointing the blame solely at our strikers. Do we need a new striker? Yes. Is that a panacea? Is it fuck.

 

I agree, apart from needing a new striker obviously. My opinion is based on the flipside of what you're saying, which is that if we got the supply right, the strikers we have would prosper.

[Guest Josh W]

The four main areas we have a problem with is putting away chances, provising genuine width, pace, and lastly and most important is movement. At the moment we are a wrecking machine.

[Mav]

The bit in bold is interesting. How many times have we really battered the opposition but not won this season? Mancs on Saturday, Blackburn and maybe Newcastle away are the only ones I can think of.

 

I've already conceded I may have overstated my case - but the Blackburn game especially stuck in my mind. But I think if I apply my brain I can think of many other games were failure to take what I would say were decent chances came back to bite us on the arse.

[Mav]

I agree, apart from needing a new striker obviously. My opinion is based on the flipside of what you're saying, which is that if we got the supply right, the strikers we have would prosper.

 

I don't disagree that the creativity needs to be improved but I think we need better strikers than we have now to prosper in how we all want i.e number 19

[Paul]

Mav's gone all FF again. Nice one.

 

How can it be unfair to expect strikers to score goals? It's their job. Yes they're all likeable players with a lot of footballing integrity, but that doesn't win you football matches; goals do (specifically scoring more than your opponents). Ours aren't scoring enough times or at the crucial moments. Fact.

 

Michael Owen could be shit all game and then take his one chance perfectly. That's how we snaffled so many points with a shit team in his day. Now we've got a better team, but no-one to take the chances when they come.

[Neil G]

Another point that I think is often overlooked is the effect that being presented with lots of chances has on strikers. All strikers thrive on confidence to a greater or lesser extent, and with a few goals in successive games even a reasonably competent striker can reach the stage where you expect them to score when given a good chance. If you know you're likely to get lots of chances in a game, then you'll feel less pressured and more composed whenever you get one.

 

If we got better wide players who could go past people, improved our passing and attacked teams more vigorously, then we'd create more chances for our strikers, and the chances of them getting 'in the zone' and going on a scoring spree would increase dramatically.

[Dirk]

Mav's gone all FF again. Nice one.

 

How can it be unfair to expect strikers to score goals? It's their job. Yes they're all likeable players with a lot of footballing integrity, but that doesn't win you football matches; goals do (specifically scoring more than your opponents). Ours aren't scoring enough times or at the crucial moments. Fact.

 

Michael Owen could be shit all game and then take his one chance perfectly. That's how we snaffled so many points with a shit team in his day. Now we've got a better team, but no-one to take the chances when they come.

 

 

Owen fluffed a fair few as well to be fair. Our problems are twofold, a lack of consistent service and a lack of goals. The two are interrelated. Not knowing where the next decent chance is coming from adds a lot pressure to a strikers game. Neil mentioned Andy Cole at United, he could miss loads but he always knew he'd get another decent chance pretty soon after.

[Dirk]

Another point that I think is often overlooked is the effect that being presented with lots of chances has on strikers. All strikers thrive on confidence to a greater or lesser extent, and with a few goals in successive games even a reasonably competent striker can reach the stage where you expect them to score when given a good chance. If you know you're likely to get lots of chances in a game, then you'll feel less pressured and more composed whenever you get one.

If we got better wide players who could go past people, improved our passing and attacked teams more vigorously, then we'd create more chances for our strikers, and the chances of them getting 'in the zone' and going on a scoring spree would increase dramatically.

 

That's exactly it.

[Paul]

Another point that I think is often overlooked is the effect that being presented with lots of chances has on strikers. All strikers thrive on confidence to a greater or lesser extent, and with a few goals in successive games even a reasonably competent striker can reach the stage where you expect them to score when given a good chance. If you know you're likely to get lots of chances in a game, then you'll feel less pressured and more composed whenever you get one.

 

If we got better wide players who could go past people, improved our passing and attacked teams more vigorously, then we'd create more chances for our strikers, and the chances of them getting 'in the zone' and going on a scoring spree would increase dramatically.

 

Neil, when will you stop making excuses for our underachievement, mate? It's not un-Red to be critical, you know. Every single thing you say carries an element of truth - it's just that you give three hundred and fifty two other reasons for us not quite being good enough instead of just accepting that we're not quite good enough.