Russia v Ukraine

[cochyn]

4 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

Doubt they'd be lifted all at once. Some would be eased, maybe the most onerous would stay in force to ensure Putin stuck to the ceasefire conditions. But yes, eventually they'd be lifted if we got back to a semblence of stability.

I think the sanctions remain in place as long as Putin and his cronies are in power. Some may get lifted if a peace deal in agreed. But in the main, the die is cast and it's regime change through financial choking of the apparatchiks and oligarchs. 

 

Though whether western companies decide not to bother with Russia after months (years?) of effective sanctions remains to be seen. Russia - or more accurately, Putin's Russia -  is bad juju right now and mud sticks. I think sanctions - in the main - will stay as long as Putin does.

[Gnasher]

30 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

It's just spiel though. They can't be Nazis anyway because Nazism is intrinsically linked with the Aryan race and consider Slavic peoples untermensch.

 

No doubt there's a few white fellas knocking around with bad haircuts who don't like blacks and gays, but that probably also applies to decent sized swathe of the Russian population too, so what's your point?

I think the Ukrainian far right is a little more problematic than a few loons with bad haircuts, some of the Azov battalions are openly right wing, the far right often hold large meetings in the capital and in 2014 in Odessa 38 mainly left wing trade unionists were murdered by the far right. On top of thar one of Ukraines far right generals is wanted for questioning for war crimes by Amnesty.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2022/02/silence-wont-make-the-ukrainian-far-right-go-away

 

 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/05/13/odes-m13.html

[TheHowieLama]

If you searched 2014 in this thread RP would have at least 50 posts, prolly more.

[cochyn]

Loath as I am to quote twitter, but Vladolf sounds rattled: -Railing against the ex-pat oligarchs, calling for a 'self-cleansing' of Russian society..

 

[Red Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

If you searched 2014 in this thread RP would have at least 50 posts, prolly more.

 

Yeah it's the year the Stanford page I linked starts the count of Azov members, not easy to avoid really as I was trying to point out how they've grown over time.

[Captain Turdseye]

52 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

From a few blocks from where JFK was shot dead, maybe a superpower nuclear war is not that bad an idea,

 

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, Captain Turdseye said:

 

 

They are fucking nuts.

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah it's the year the Stanford page I linked starts the count of Azov members, not easy to avoid really as I was trying to point out how they've grown over time.

I agree with you on the far right in Ukraine, in the west of the country they still have monuments to the monstrous Stephan Bandera, I just don't see what its got to do with Putin, it seems an excuse, and not a very good one.

 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/03/19/in-ukraine-stepan-bandera-s-legacy-becomes-a-political-football-again

[TheHowieLama]

17 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah it's the year the Stanford page I linked starts the count of Azov members, not easy to avoid really as I was trying to point out how they've grown over time.

There is a fair chance the numbers were actually higher before 2014 - like 1983 or 1995.

[Pureblood]

2 hours ago, Arniepie said:

Without excusing the invasion   I think it's a fair question to ask what americas response would be if Russia stuck a load of bases on the Mexican border.

Away with you and your open and honest discussion.

 

Rules are rules. 

[Pureblood]

1 hour ago, cochyn said:

Though whether western companies decide not to bother with Russia after months (years?) of effective sanctions remains to be seen. Russia - or more accurately, Putin's Russia -  is bad juju right now and mud sticks. I think sanctions - in the main - will stay as long as Putin does.

Our corporations are so nice and squeaky clean, I can see the logic.  No bad juju with Deepwater Horizon.  

[Red Phoenix]

36 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I agree with you on the far right in Ukraine, in the west of the country they still have monuments to the monstrous Stephan Bandera, I just don't see what its got to do with Putin, it seems an excuse, and not a very good one.

 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/03/19/in-ukraine-stepan-bandera-s-legacy-becomes-a-political-football-again

 

I saw a clip of an interview with some guy where the media had tried to blur out a picture on his wall of Bandera I think, might've been posted here not long back. It's almost like the media are deliberately dog whistling with the fascist/Nazi stuff at times.

 

32 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

There is a fair chance the numbers were actually higher before 2014 - like 1983 or 1995.

 

You mean fascists in general? No idea, I still think the rate Azov (who formed in the year I keep mentioning) are growing and attracting more attention could be more of a serious concern as time passes.

[cochyn]

12 minutes ago, Pureblood said:

Our corporations are so nice and squeaky clean, I can see the logic.  No bad juju with Deepwater Horizon.  

Is there even logic to your comment? Or are you just here to be deliberately obtuse? 

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

You mean fascists in general? No idea, I still think the rate Azov (who formed in the year I keep mentioning) are growing and attracting more attention could be more of a serious concern as time passes.

Are they Fascists or Nazis in your opinion? 

[Pureblood]

2 minutes ago, cochyn said:

Is there even logic to your comment? Or are you just here to be deliberately obtuse? 

Yeah, there's logic.  Where would we be if everyone boycotted everyone else forever?

 

Globalism is about cross border corporate interaction.  That entails dealing with people and companies with different political outlooks and ideologies.  In your world of post-ceasefire perpetual sanctions, everyone loses.  Just my opinion.  

[M_B]

1 hour ago, cochyn said:

Loath as I am to quote twitter, but Vladolf sounds rattled: -Railing against the ex-pat oligarchs, calling for a 'self-cleansing' of Russian society..

 

Clearest indicator yet that the Russians are losing this. Putin calling for a classic Soviet purge. When I read Mein Kampf, I never thought I'd actually hear that bullshit in my lifetime, but here it is.

 

Please, someone kill him before it's too late. Seriously.

[Red Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Are they Fascists or Nazis in your opinion? 

 

There'll be a mixture of both I think out of the ones into the far right stuff.

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There'll be a mixture of both I think out of the ones into the far right stuff.

Ok - you're taking notice of Azov is why again? Are there only some into the far right stuff?

[Red Phoenix]

11 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Ok - you're taking notice of Azov is why again? Are there only some into the far right stuff?

 

There's the Azov battalion, it's accepted that they recruit people to fight with them that aren't all fascists/neo-Nazis. Then there's the Azov movement as a whole (the Azov Battalion, the National Corps, and the National Militia) that's probably got quite a lot of fascists and neo-Nazis in total.

 

It is actually ok to be concerned about neo-Nazis and fascists and it doesn't have to be seen as an excuse for Putin invading.

[cochyn]

21 minutes ago, Pureblood said:

Yeah, there's logic.  Where would we be if everyone boycotted everyone else forever?

 

Globalism is about cross border corporate interaction.  That entails dealing with people and companies with different political outlooks and ideologies.  In your world of post-ceasefire perpetual sanctions, everyone loses.  Just my opinion.  

So why mention Deepwater Horizon? Ig et what you mean about the damage pf perpetual sanctioning. But I'm not saying that.

 

Just to be clear; I'm saying a number of western companies, mindful of their ESG obligations may decide the fallout from trading in Russia would lose them too many consumers in more profitable markets. I guess it'll remain to be seen. Some Western companies will return whilst others just won't bother - as long as the rouble is worth less than bluebottle shit. 

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's the Azov battalion, it's accepted that they recruit people to fight with them that aren't all fascists/Nazis. Then there's the Azov movement as a whole that's probably got quite a lot of fascists and neo-Nazis.

 

It is actually ok to be concerned about neo-Nazis and fascists and it doesn't have to be seen as an excuse for Putin invading.

I live in the States - get that.

 

Russian justification is about de Nazification. It says it in the marketing literature.

Pretty sure that you have mentioned Azov and Nazi more than a few times.

So is it Nazis? Is it the far right element of Eastern Europe that you have recently found?

[Red Phoenix]

Germany, Israel, Turkey, France : let's try and negotiate with Putin to try and end this war as soon as possible.

 

US : Let's see how many weapons we can get shipped into Ukraine before this is over.

 

UK : Let's go see the Saudis to see if we can get some help with oil and hope that Yemen doesn't become an issue again.

[Red Phoenix]

6 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I live in the States - get that.

 

Russian justification is about de Nazification. It says it in the marketing literature.

Pretty sure that you have mentioned Azov and Nazi more than a few times.

So is it Nazis? Is it the far right element of Eastern Europe that you have recently found?

 

You keep asking questions that aren't very clear to me. I'm concerned about Nazis, neo-Nazis, fascists. I started looking into this more recently and I get the feeling that western involvement with all of them that I've seen so far is just the tip of the iceberg. I find it unsettling.

 

We have a problem with fascism now and in our history (like many other countries do, not just the west) and we don't seem to want to face it. Maybe that's because our dear leaders would much rather align with some fascism here and there than some democracy breaking out and putting their greed and control at risk.

 

The bigger problem is that the fascism itself always risks getting out of control.

[Pureblood]

3 minutes ago, cochyn said:

So why mention Deepwater Horizon? And I think you've just leapt to a conclusion no one is making - that of universal sanctions ad infinitum.. 

 

Just to be clear; I'm saying a number of western companies, mindful of their ESG obligations, will be seen to be tarnished in the eyes of their core consumers in the ROW by continuing to operate in Russia, even if sanctions are gradually lifted. i.e: they may decide the fallout from trading in Russia would lose them too many consumers in more profitable markets.  

Why not mention it?  Which rule have I broken now? 

 

You mention sanctioning Russia for as long as Putin is in power, I think you'll be waiting a long time.  It would be damaging for everyone, not just Russia.  

 

As for "ESG obligations", what was that about Deepwater Horizon?  Oh sorry, that's off the table, my bad. 

[Red Shift]

4 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

 

Again with the Ukrainian Nazi stuff. That’s what you keep posting about. That was literally Putin’s fake reasoning for this entire thing and you’ve swallowed it hook, line and sinker. 
 

I asked about Telegram because you’re finding all this stuff somewhere. It’s fine to look at different things to what’s in the “mainstream media”, but you’ve gone full “alt” here and you’re just sharing stuff that’s Russian propaganda. 

Some posts, I may be mistaken with, but who here can claim they know exactly what has taken place in the Ukraine over the last 8 yrs or longer? To say that there has been no western provocation in any shape or form that has brought us to this war, - well, I don’t believe it. There’s too much money being made on both sides of any war. I’m simply wanting the truth.

 

This is that moment where everyone reading this silently chants ‘you can’t handle the truth’.