Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Strontium]

I personally believe the Palestinians should just bow down to the Israelis and accept all the good will they are offering them.

Accepting that the Israelis have a right to life would be a good start. Not spending a full half of the aid they receive on subsidising terrorism, even better.

 

Anyway, we already have a thread for mindless bashing of the Middle East's only democracy, this one is reserved for the hagiography of St Jeremy

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Accepting that the Israelis have a right to life would be a good start. Not spending a full half of the aid they receive on subsidising terrorism, even better.

 

Anyway, we already have a thread for mindless bashing of the Middle East's only democracy, this one is reserved for the hagiography of St Jeremy

It's never their fault...

It's never theeeeeir fault...

The state of Israel...

It's never their fault

[Aventus]

I reckon we're due a crusade, it's been a while.

 

Somebody needs to get on the blower to the Pope and see if we can launch one before those pesky Jews and Muslims get too cocky.

 

 

Deus Vult!

[Strontium]

Crusades only happen in response to Islamic invasions of Europe, we need Turkey to conquer Crete or something.

[Aventus]

Crusades only happen in response to Islamic invasions of Europe, we need Turkey to conquer Crete or something.

Our guy Tommy says there's already an Islamic invasion of Europe happening right now, and that's all the evidence I need.

 

Deus Vult!

[cloggypop]

Crusades only happen in response to Islamic invasions of Europe, we need Turkey to conquer Crete or something.

E... E... ESD!

 

E.. E... ESD!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Would love to know how comparing Israel to the Third Reich and claiming that a Jewish homeland is a racist endeavour amounts to legitimate criticism, but I suspect I'll just get the usual deflection.

Cute way to try to invalidate any responses even before they're posted.

 

Just in case you genuinely would "love to know", try inverting the question: if any other country's actions can be compared to Nazi Germany, why not Israel's? Or, why should it be legitimate to draw comparisons between the Israeli regime and any previous regime, but not that one? And what happens if some future Israeli government embarks on a course of action that has unmistakable historical precedents in 1930s Germany? Would you still deny the legitimacy of such comparisons? Even the IHRA state that comparing Israeli actions to those of the Nazis is not necessarily anti-Semitic: it depends on the context. (For what it's worth, I'm not a big fan of such comparisons: apart from the obvious crassness and insensitivity, it's likely to weaken your argument by getting you bogged down in tangential issues. It's best just to criticise the actions of oppressive regimes on their own terms.)

 

As for your second point - that it's not legitimate to say that one ethnic/religious group driving another ethnic/religious group off their land and then denying them basic rights, because of their ethnicity and religion is a bit racist - you've absolutely lost me. I’d love to hear your explanation of how that isn't racist.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Accepting that the Israelis have a right to life would be a good start. Not spending a full half of the aid they receive on subsidising terrorism, even better.

 

Anyway, we already have a thread for mindless bashing of the Middle East's only democracy, this one is reserved for the hagiography of St Jeremy

Who mentioned deflection?

[Strontium]

Just in case you genuinely would "love to know", try inverting the question: if any other country's actions can be compared to Nazi Germany, why not Israel's?

If any other nation attempts industrial scale genocide of a minority, then a comparison would be entirely justified. Anything short of that serves to both diminish the uniquely evil crimes of the Nazis, and to be gratuitously offensive towards the primary victims of that crime.

 

As for your second point - that it's not legitimate to say that one ethnic/religious group driving another ethnic/religious group off their land and then denying them basic rights, because of their ethnicity and religion is a bit racist - you've absolutely lost me. I’d love to hear your explanation of how that isn't racist.

It's people claiming that the mere existence of Israel is a racist endeavour that is the problem.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

If any other nation attempts industrial scale genocide of a minority, then a comparison would be entirely justified. Anything short of that serves to both diminish the uniquely evil crimes of the Nazis, and to be gratuitously offensive towards the primary victims of that crime.

 

 

 

Complete and utter disingenuous bollocks again.

 

If people said that the Israeli government were identical to Nazi Germany in every respect, your point would hold water.

 

However, people give specific examples of overlaps between some of the actions of the Nazis and the Israeli government. Like the empty antisemitism slurs, invoking memories of the holocaust to downplay the disgusting actions of Israel is another shut down discussion tactic of the pro-Israeli mob. You should be ashamed of yourself. But, I don't think you have it in yourself to feel shame.

 

The bottom line is that Corbyn could dig the foundations of a new West Bank illegal settlement with his bare hands while wearing a "I love Binyamin N" t-shirt, but that still wouldn't be enough for the pro-Israel apartheid apologists.

 

Corbyn's cards are marked with them. In hindsight, I'm slightly disappointed with his Guardian piece now. He needs to stop appeasing this small group of right wing, blood thirsty loons.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Industrial scale genocide wasn't the only shitty thing the Nazis did. They were proper 'orrible bastards even before the Holocaust. Take, for example, using prisoners as slave labour and working them to death. Any modern regime doing that would, quite legitimately, draw comparisons with the Nazis. Then there's the Lebensraum project: forcibly evicting members of an oppressed ethnic group out of their homes and away from their lands, to enable the state to move members of its favoured ethnic group in. That has echoes today.

 

And I'll stand by the argument that (for the reasons given) it is legitimate to argue* that the Israeli state is a racist endeavour- provided that the same criticism is extended to the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and all other colonies in which the invade group still holds power.

 

 

(*NB - Saying it's a legitimate argument doesn't mean I agree with it.)

[sir roger]

Complete and utter disingenuous bollocks again.

 

If people said that the Israeli government were identical to Nazi Germany in every respect, your point would hold water.

 

However, people give specific examples of overlaps between some of the actions of the Nazis and the Israeli government. Like the empty antisemitism slurs, invoking memories of the holocaust to downplay the disgusting actions of Israel is another shut down discussion tactic of the pro-Israeli mob. You should be ashamed of yourself. But, I don't think you have it in yourself to feel shame.

 

The bottom line is that Corbyn could dig the foundations of a new West Bank illegal settlement with his bare hands while wearing a "I love Binyamin N" t-shirt, but that still wouldn't be enough for the pro-Israel apartheid apologists.

 

Corbyn's cards are marked with them. In hindsight, I'm slightly disappointed with his Guardian piece now. He needs to stop appeasing this small group of right wing, blood thirsty loons.

 

I don't think it was a bad piece but I thought that it was becoming clearer that the attacks had not stuck to any extent & some had actually rebounded , Ellman and Hodge for instance , and seemed like the MSM were getting a bit bored. So a bit worried he has stirred it up again.

[cloggypop]

If any other nation attempts industrial scale genocide of a minority, then a comparison would be entirely justified. Anything short of that serves to both diminish the uniquely evil crimes of the Nazis, and to be gratuitously offensive towards the primary victims of that crime.

 

 

It's people claiming that the mere existence of Israel is a racist endeavour that is the problem.

I agree with all of this.

 

It's also important to stand against extreme right wing actions whether it be by individuals or a state. Call them Nazis, call them Fascists, I'm not really into them.

[Strontium]

Then there's the Lebensraum project: forcibly evicting members of an oppressed ethnic group out of their homes and away from their lands, to enable the state to move members of its favoured ethnic group in. That has echoes today.

That's right, following the establishment of Israel, Jews in the rest of the Middle East were forced out of Arab countries, their properties and land (land that covered four times the area of Israel) seized by the Arab nations.

 

But I guess that doesn't count in some people's book.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

That's right, following the establishment of Israel, Jews in the rest of the Middle East were forced out of Arab countries, their properties and land (land that covered four times the area of Israel) seized by the Arab nations.

 

But I guess that doesn't count in some people's book.

And, he goes on about deflection...

[cloggypop]

That's right, following the establishment of Israel, Jews in the rest of the Middle East were forced out of Arab countries, their properties and land (land that covered four times the area of Israel) seized by the Arab nations.

 

But I guess that doesn't count in some people's book.

I don't agree with this either. It's an understandable reaction though.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

That's right, following the establishment of Israel, Jews in the rest of the Middle East were forced out of Arab countries, their properties and land (land that covered four times the area of Israel) seized by the Arab nations.

 

But I guess that doesn't count in some people's book.

So, do you agree that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander?  If we say it's reminiscent of Nazi actions when the Arabs do it to Jews, then the same applies when Israelis do it to Palestinians?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Rupert Murdoch's minions have had a busy week.

 

[cloggypop]

Probably safer to compare it to fascism.

[Lee909]

Probably safer to compare it to fascism.

Or 1948-90s South Africa

[cloggypop]

Well, yeah.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Probably safer to compare it to fascism.

Like I say, I'd rather not make those comparisons anyway.  I'd rather call out human rights abuses on their own merits, irrespective of any historical precedent.  I just don't think that you can dismiss such comparisons as invalid or as evidence of anti-Semitism on the part of the person making them.

 

Actually, I've just re-read the Code of Conduct and it pretty much agrees with where I stand.

"Discourse about international politics often employs metaphors drawn from examples of historic misconduct.  It is not antisemitism to criticise the conduct or policies of the Israeli state by reference to such examples unless there is evidence of antisemitic intent.  Chakrabarti recommended that Labour members should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine in particular."

 

As a code of conduct, that provides much clearer guidance on this specific issue than the IHRA document, which just says

"Contemporary examples of antisemitism... could, taking into account the overall context, include...Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."

 

The IHRA makes it clear that there's a line to be drawn somewhere or other; the Labour Code of Conduct gives more detail about where that line is.

[Strontium]

Or 1948-90s South Africa

Yeah, throwing gays off multi-storey car parks and blowing up nightclubs is just like Nelson Mandela.

 

So, do you agree that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander?  If we say it's reminiscent of Nazi actions when the Arabs do it to Jews, then the same applies when Israelis do it to Palestinians?

No, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in the whole situation, given that nobody seems to give a shit about the Jews who were relieved of their land. Can't imagine why...

 

Anyway, as I say, we have a thread where folk can discuss how evil democracy in the Middle East is. Let's keep this one for St Jeremy.

[cloggypop]

Can you bump the Liberals thread please SD? Would be interesting to discuss Gina Miller.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Or 1948-90s South Africa

Not too sure that's accurate. The estimates of black African deaths caused by government violence in the Apartheid era SA come in at a surprisingly low 2,000-4,000. It was more about opression and control.

 

Israel have been much more murderous. 4,000 is probably just an Operation Cast Lead (white phosphorous and all!) and an Operation Protective Edge combined.