Roy and Rafa, why do you support a manager?

[Code]

04/05: 5th

05/06: 3rd

06/07: 3rd

07/08: 4th

08/09: 2nd

 

From 5th to 2nd, never coming behind the initial final overall position.

 

You cant argue with this, so you choose to do some comparison based on away form and home form.

 

Rafa took a team that finished 4th to 5th in his first season, he then finished 3rd twice, once on goal difference, before he was back in 4th, then second and he finished of with 7th.

 

His points tally in these seasons where 58, 82, 68, 76, 86, 63.

 

Only two seasons in a row did he actually improve on his former season, apart from that it was up and down like the throw of a dice, excuse me for not finding much consistent improvement here.

[Guest San Don]

Support the club. That's what I do. Some of our managers I've loved, some I've respected and some I dont like.

 

But, to me it isnt the personality, its the club every time.

[peruvian_kopite]

Personally I think we have regressed from the summer of 2006, proportional with how much input Rafa got on the squad.

 

There have not been any real progress under Rafa, we went forward in one area only to go backwards in another, this happened every season, if it looked like Rafa had found a solution to a problem you could bet your house we would go backwards somewhere else the next.

 

It was rollercoaster with just as much downs as ups, those who claim otherwise are, sorry to say this, a bit deluded.

 

We have of course gone backwards since 2006. We are 4 points off the relegation slots.

 

Did we go backwards from 2006 untill 2009? Id disagree on the sheer back of results. Id say we pretty much stayed in the same level, reaching a peak in 2009. But we did not started to decline untill last season. Again, this is based on end-season results only.

 

Anyway, its a different argument to the original one you seemed to suggest: that Roy Hogdson and Rafa Benitez are equally capable managers.

[Code]

so 08/09 never happened after 2006? :wallbutt:

 

we made progress 04/05 through to 08/09 and then had one bad season.

 

we were fighting against some mega rich clubs and those with mangers settled for over 10 and 20 years. what more did you want?

 

04/05:

League Cup: Final

Champions League: Winners

 

05/06:

FA Cup: Winners

 

06/07:

Champions league: Final

 

07/08:

Nothing

 

08/09:

Nothing

 

09/10:

Nothing

[sunny_LFC]

Rafa took a team that finished 4th to 5th in his first season, he then finished 3rd twice, once on goal difference, before he was back in 4th, then second and he finished of with 7th.

 

His points tally in these seasons where 58, 82, 68, 76, 86, 63.

 

Only two seasons in a row did he actually improve on his former season, apart from that it was up and down like the throw of a dice, excuse me for not finding much consistent improvement here.

 

 

what do you measure rafa benitez against? the way liverpool were 20 years ago?? how does our form in those years (above) compare with that of say arsene wenger and his team?

 

what factors do you take into account? seriously what wonders do you expect in what our club has been through these past few years?!

[peruvian_kopite]

Rafa took a team that finished 4th to 5th in his first season, he then finished 3rd twice, once on goal difference, before he was back in 4th, then second and he finished of with 7th.

 

His points tally in these seasons where 58, 82, 68, 76, 86, 63.

 

Only two seasons in a row did he actually improve on his former season, apart from that it was up and down like the throw of a dice, excuse me for not finding much consistent improvement here.

 

Its pretty clear that points tally is secondary to season-end position in importance. The point was that Rafa made progress in his first five seasons, discounting the last one. He went from 5th to 2nd. I dont see how you can argue against that.

 

Again, this is a different argument to the Roy-Rafa comparison you seemed to want to bring up.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Roy and Rafa are not that different really so if one was seen as a demi God and should be given time why does not the same apply with the other one.

 

They are pretty different in terms of what they've achieved in their careers. Success, and a history of it, carries a lot further than failure.

 

In Rafas first season in charge we had the 4th best home record, so far in Roys with the game s in hand we are on par with second

 

Why are you using one, quite meaningless, statistic instead of looking at the full picture?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

04/05:

League Cup: Final

Champions League: Winners

 

05/06:

FA Cup: Winners

 

06/07:

Champions league: Final

 

07/08:

Nothing

 

08/09:

Nothing

 

09/10:

Nothing

 

Yes and when you look at only what's written there in black and white, as you normally do, rather than contrast it to what was going on at the club and how he was supported financially, you can draw whatever conclusion you like. If, as you rarely do, you look at the full range of facts, it paints a rather different picture.

[Code]

We have of course gone backwards since 2006. We are 4 points off the relegation slots.

 

Did we go backwards from 2006 untill 2009? Id disagree on the sheer back of results. Id say we pretty much stayed in the same level, reaching a peak in 2009. But we did not started to decline untill last season. Again, this is based on end-season results only.

 

Anyway, its a different argument to the original one you seemed to suggest: that Roy Hogdson and Rafa Benitez are equally capable managers.

 

They are both shite, they both play boring football, they both struggle away from home, they both have a good record at home, both have outdated tactics and both would never win us the league.

 

Minor differences as sitting back or play a high line does not really matter, neither would give us success and pointwise its almsot the same results.

 

I`m sorry but I cant compare what Roy is doing with what Rafa was doing with a team including Alonso, Mascherano, Hyypia etc

 

Rafa lost his way after the 05/06 season and after what happened during the summer of 2008 you only have to winder how much of our league results in 08/09 was Rafa`s "fault".

 

had he got his way it would probably been another 60/70 points season, luckily he did not.

[TheHitman]

The one argument that fans used to have was Rafa would never win the league at Liverpool.

 

It was actually correct but a more apt hypothesis would have been, would anybody have won the league at Liverpool especially when the vermin came in.

 

We didn’t win anything since the vermin came in that may have something to do with the owners.

[sunny_LFC]

They are both shite, they both play boring football, they both struggle away from home, they both have a good record at home, both have outdated tactics and both would never win us the league.

 

Minor differences as sitting back or play a high line does not really matter, neither would give us success and pointwise its almsot the same results.

 

I`m sorry but I cant compare what Roy is doing with what Rafa was doing with a team including Alonso, Mascherano, Hyypia etc

 

Rafa lost his way after the 05/06 season and after what happened during the summer of 2008 you only have to winder how much of our league results in 08/09 was Rafa`s "fault".

 

had he got his way it would probably been another 60/70 points season, luckily he did not.

 

you are surely winding us up?

[Il Fenomeno]

you only have to winder how much of our league results in 08/09 was Rafa`s "fault".

 

had he got his way it would probably been another 60/70 points season, luckily he did not.

 

[Code]

 

Why are you using one, quite meaningless, statistic instead of looking at the full picture?

 

I dont see it as meaningless, I actually pointed it out in the summer before Roy got appointed.

 

My question was why would we bring in a manager with a good home record, since our home record usually have been very good the whole decade, but a really poor away record because this is where we need to move forward if we ever are to win the league.

 

The away record also tells you a bit about the approach the manager will have to the games and a poor away record in this league where going for the kill will take you to places because of the standard of the league a manager with a poor away record should never be appointed again because 9 out of 10 times it means he has a negative and cautious approach, thats why I draw similarities between the two as well.

[peruvian_kopite]

They are both shite, they both play boring football, they both struggle away from home, they both have a good record at home, both have outdated tactics and both would never win us the league.

 

Minor differences as sitting back or play a high line does not really matter, neither would give us success and pointwise its almsot the same results.

 

I`m sorry but I cant compare what Roy is doing with what Rafa was doing with a team including Alonso, Mascherano, Hyypia etc

 

 

Rafa lost his way after the 05/06 season and after what happened during the summer of 2008 you only have to winder how much of our league results in 08/09 was Rafa`s "fault".

 

had he got his way it would probably been another 60/70 points season, luckily he did not.

 

Thats a valid opinion, but its based on perception and your perception alone, for that fact.

 

You cant compare what Roy could have done with Hyypia, Alonso and Mascherano. Well, two of those players were signed by Benitez. And I can also tell you I dread to think were would we be right now If Roy didnt hadt Reina and Torres this season - both Benitez signings.

 

Under a different, and more objective line of reasoning, it is perfectly valid for other posters to back Rafa and not to Roy on the fact Rafa has won more trophies, and more significant trophies, than Roy. Also, that Rafa had succesfully managed to win titles a top European league before, while Hogdson wasnt able to even keep a job a top european league in his 35 years of experience.

 

You may conclude that Rafa and Roy are comparable, but thats based on your absolute subjective perception. Objective criteria and results point otherwise. Thats the point Im trying to make.

 

Thus, if you are entitled to say that you cant support Rafa if you dont support Roy because of what you perceive, other fans are at least equally entitled to say they can support Rafa and not Roy based on the much more objective argument that Rafa has provided much more concrete results that Roy.

[mni]

This is why I have him on ignore.

[Guest TesticleOReilly]

04/05:

League Cup: Final

Champions League: Winners

 

05/06:

FA Cup: Winners

 

06/07:

Champions league: Final

 

07 Hicks & Gillett arrive

 

07/08:

Nothing

 

08/09:

Nothing

 

09/10:

Nothing

 

Fixed that for you, Codeypops. More than welcome, mate, more than welcome.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I dont see it as meaningless, I actually pointed it out in the summer before Roy got appointed.

 

My question was why would we bring in a manager with a good home record, since our home record usually have been very good the whole decade, but a really poor away record because this is where we need to move forward if we ever are to win the league.

 

The away record also tells you a bit about the approach the manager will have to the games and a poor away record in this league where going for the kill will take you to places because of the standard of the league a manager with a poor away record should never be appointed again because 9 out of 10 times it means he has a negative and cautious approach, thats why I draw similarities between the two as well.

 

That's a fair point. It's not meaningless, I misspoke. It's meaningless, or at the very least it's only a small part, when comparing managers.

 

You didn't answer my question, though. Why not look at the full picture. Why only chose a small amount of data to extrapolate from?

[bobhorse]

It is pointless going into the Rafa or Roy who is the better manager

niether of them proved good enough as it stands now

So its time to move on and we just await the owners actions after the game on Sunday

The problem is that Roy has lost the fans and maybe the players also but it is no use putting pressureon ourselfs we have a manager and we are looking for his replacement when that man is found we will all know its no good getting rid of one short term manager to replace him with another and then him with another FFS we will be like Newcastle if we do that this next appointment is vital so give those that will make the decision the time and space to get it right and untill then support the Shirt

[Thants]

And all because Benitez sold Riise, we have to put up with endless fucking moronic shit from this arrogant, self important arse sniffer.

 

Laughting.My.Arse.Off.

 

You're well missed Rob.

[Thants]

Why are you using one, quite meaningless, statistic instead of looking at the full picture?

 

NN, Code. Code, NN.

[TheResonator]

You didn't answer my question, though. Why not look at the full picture. Why only chose a small amount of data to extrapolate from?

 

As far as I'm concerned, every one of Code's posts should be suffixed with the tale of another poster (myrlas, maybe?) about an argument they had over Lucas.

 

It was something along the lines of the other poster and Code in the pub before the game arguing about whether or not Lucas is shit. Code was saying he was shit and only passed it sideways. The other poster was saying he was good and hit it forward regularly.

 

Throughout the first half they took notes on a napkin. By half-time, all of Lucas' passes had been recorded - most reached their man and almost all were forward. Code was drunk and stormed out of the pub in a huff.

 

Probably in the top five of all the posts I've ever read on here, and one of my greatest laments is that I read it before I could rep.

[Guest TesticleOReilly]

As far as I'm concerned, every one of Code's posts should be suffixed with the tale of another poster (myrlas, maybe?) about an argument they had over Lucas.

 

It was something along the lines of the other poster and Code in the pub before the game arguing about whether or not Lucas is shit. Code was saying he was shit and only passed it sideways. The other poster was saying he was good and hit it forward regularly.

 

Throughout the first half they took notes on a napkin. By half-time, all of Lucas' passes had been recorded - most reached their man and almost all were forward. Code was drunk and stormed out of the pub in a huff.

 

Probably in the top five of all the posts I've ever read on here, and one of my greatest laments is that I read it before I could rep.

 

I think you'll find it goes something like my signature. Stat Napkin!

[Megadrive Man]

I think Rafa was a victim of his own success. He made us able to compete at the top level against the best teams in Europe, despite having an inferior squad to most of our rivals.

 

When Rafa took over, we were behind a Manchester United team that had been splashing the cash for years and building a solid core squad of players that would shape their team for the next decade. The United team Rafa was up against had been able to spend 30 million on Rooney, 30 million on Ferdinand, huge amounts of money, that even to this day, we are yet to spend that amount on one single player!

 

Also there was Chelsea. A team that had overtaken us, having been bankrolled to the hilt and spending 100's of millions each summer on signing some of the best up and coming players as well as established stars. Not only were they were outspending us on transfers they were spending way more on wages too. The deals they offered Ballack, Shevchenko etc were phenomenal compared to what we were paying most of our squad.

 

Also there was Arsenal, Who Arsene Wenger has been building for years, not just there first team but the youth teams too.

 

All things considered I think Rafa overachieved during his time here, and did a fantastic job.

 

But the main reason I support him, is that he genuinely cared about this club. He hated Hicks, Gillete, Ferguson and Mourinho just as much as we did. He wanted to take us back to the top but was constantly held back by firstly Rick Parry and then more later, Cancer and Aids refusal to back him.

[sunny_LFC]

I think Rafa was a victim of his own success. He made us able to compete at the top level against the best teams in Europe, despite having an inferior squad to most of our rivals.

 

When Rafa took over, we were behind a Manchester United team that had been splashing the cash for years and building a solid core squad of players that would shape their team for the next decade. The United team Rafa was up against had been able to spend 30 million on Rooney, 30 million on Ferdinand, huge amounts of money, that even to this day, we are yet to spend that amount on one single player!

 

Also there was Chelsea. A team that had overtaken us, having been bankrolled to the hilt and spending 100's of millions each summer on signing some of the best up and coming players as well as established stars. Not only were they were outspending us on transfers they were spending way more on wages too. The deals they offered Ballack, Shevchenko etc were phenomenal compared to what we were paying most of our squad.

 

Also there was Arsenal, Who Arsene Wenger has been building for years, not just there first team but the youth teams too.

 

All things considered I think Rafa overachieved during his time here, and did a fantastic job.

 

But the main reason I support him, is that he genuinely cared about this club. He hated Hicks, Gillete, Ferguson and Mourinho just as much as we did. He wanted to take us back to the top but was constantly held back by firstly Rick Parry and then more later, Cancer and Aids refusal to back him.

 

is right.

[Bobby Hundreds]

That season we had our highest points tally was bizarre. We were top for a long time and picking up points whilst playing utter shite ( as bad as anything last season in terms of how we played ). I know theres the argument you make your own luck but fuck me in that build up until the Rafa " Rant " I thought we had found a field of 4 leaf clovers. After the Madrid game though I thought Jesus its all clicked into place Rafa has sussed it. I honestly do think if you looked at our performances overall that season 86 points flatters us. Still we ended that season fucking beautifully, its what made the following season that little bit more bitter.