Roy and Rafa, why do you support a manager?

[Randy Marsh]

Chelsea have consistently reached CL sem finals the last 6 years, this is their away record in the same seasons.

 

48p, 36p, 40p, 42p, 44p, 34p.

 

Your argument about the CL does not hold water.

 

That is an absolute mong of a post.

 

Chelsea had the most expensively assembled squad in world football before City came along. Not just a first XI, they could field a full strength side and still have a bench full of £20m+ players. They could pay big money for players just to stop rival clubs signing them. Chelsea could afford to expend energy on all fronts. For Rafa's first 3 seasons at least, he felt we couldn't and I'd agree.

[Code]

As TK pointed out, we had less points on the road in 07 and 05 because we rested players in away games near the final and dropped points. Such as Birmingham, Fulham etc.

 

Come on Code, you cant compare Benitez to Hodgson. If they were that similar Hodgosn wouldnt have been hired by Inter Milan if he was similar to Benitez.

 

I`m soon on my way out to see a mate and his band playing at a club later, so I will not do any research on our home games vs away games after CL matches in 04/05 and 06/07.

 

Not sure I get your last point Robbie, was that sarcasm and you agree with me?

 

If not I`m lost.

[Guest the boy]

Not sure I get your last point Robbie, was that sarcasm and you agree with me?

 

Noone agrees with you.

[Code]

Noone agrees with you.

 

Well considering I was right on both occasions thats not something I would say out loud if I were you.

[a stoner]

I didn't want Rafa and certainly didn't want Roy here.

[RobbieOR]

I`m soon on my way out to see a mate and his band playing at a club later, so I will not do any research on our home games vs away games after CL matches in 04/05 and 06/07.

 

Not sure I get your last point Robbie, was that sarcasm and you agree with me?

 

If not I`m lost.

 

Sarcasm so it was.

[Moo]

I`m just looking for some consistency.

 

Roy and Rafa are not that different really so if one was seen as a demi God and should be given time why does not the same apply with the other one.

 

He obviously should not but neither should Rafa, its the double standard that bugs me.

 

Thats why I asked the question to give people a chance to explain the difference between them.

 

 

Are you as bugged by those who advocated the sacking of Rafa yet welcomed Roy to the club? By your reckoning surely they too were inconsistent?

Or are you only concerned with, shock horror, those who supported Rafa?

Saying that I can see why you'd forget about the posters on the other side of the coin seeing as though they have gone amazingly quiet recently.

[bobhorse]

Rafa came in and was then shaffted by the then owners of the club before he upped and left

 

Roy has come in and has now been shaffted by the now new owners of the club

 

I am a supporter of the club and everyone within it and would never sing shout etc against anyone within the club apartr from the two cunts we just outed

 

From the begining Roy Hodgson was the wrong choice IMHO but the decision was made to appoint him and he got my backing and he still has that backing until he leaves the club

 

As manager of the club he should be allowed to build his team but the fact that he only signed for 2 years meant that was never going to happen

So it now falls on the owners to either come out and support the manager till the end of the season, allowing him to bring in the players he believes will change things around for Him the Team and The Supporters or bring forward the transition of manager and allow everyone to unite behind the choice

 

To expect anyone to work wonders with a declining side that lost yet more players from the weakend squad and expect two players whos best years are behind them in Konchelsky and Poulson and a CM player who has never played in the league before to be the answer it's ok to say he shouldnt have signed either player but it was a case of thefm or nothing so i dont blame him for that

 

I am not beating up a manager who wasnt good enough for the job in the first place (IMHO) he isnt a bad manager the problem is he will never bee a great manager and i can understand why the man is so well liked within the game

 

But the time as come now where we look to see what the owners are made of for they are about to make the biggest decision in this clubs modern history and the fact is they cant get it wrong so it is now time to get behind Roy Hodgson we are about to visit the enemy in there back yard and it is time to show that the man leading the team out really doesnt walk alone

 

Support the Team support the Manager support the Shirt there is no difference between all three let the board make the decision while we support the team and at least for a day lets stand together behind LFC

[MLB]

I support managers i believe in.

 

 

Yeah, I agree with that. For me, supporting the manager isn't the be all and end all anyway though. I support the club, and support the team when it takes to the pitch, but I don't support individuals. By that I mean, if I don't believe in the manager then I'm not going to support him other than in wanting the team to win games. You can still want the team to win without wanting the manager to be in the job. I also want players to do well when they take to the field and for the team to get results, even if I don't believe that player is good enough for the club. For me, what it all boils down to is wanting the club to be successful on the pitch; and if there is an individual at the club - whoever it might be - that isn't good enough, or isn't contributing to our success to the extent that they should be, then I won't suppor them and I won't want them at the club.

[Dicko]

Why do I get the impression that this thread is about shifting goalposts.

[TheHitman]

Not that different in footballing styles for someone who claims to be a footballing man it is a bizarre statement.

 

442 v 4231 is their preferred formation

 

Different uses of the frontman see the use of Torres.

 

Different uses of Gerrard

 

Different uses of the fullbacks the likes of Insua, Finnan Arbeloa et al were given far more license to push on than our full backs now.

 

Different styles of defending set pieces

 

Roy Likes to his alleged widemen to work hard for the team similar to Rafa but Roy tucks them in far more.

 

Different distributions from Reina see the diagram v the Wolves game posted by DaveLFc

 

Ball possession Roy is happy to concede passion and Rafa believed in retaining passion. Roy has a tendency to want two banks of four and invite the opposition onto his team.

 

Uses of subs by Rafa seemed to be predetermined prior to the game Roy seems to forget he is even allowed to use them.

 

We could go on and list numerous differences but it has been covered by people who are far more eloquent than myself.

[Iantn]

Code in another superb example of making a question turn into a lecture of how wrong you are. It's beauitful in it's own condesending way, it really is.

[Code]

Are you as bugged by those who advocated the sacking of Rafa yet welcomed Roy to the club? By your reckoning surely they too were inconsistent?

Or are you only concerned with, shock horror, those who supported Rafa?

Saying that I can see why you'd forget about the posters on the other side of the coin seeing as though they have gone amazingly quiet recently.

 

No as I said in the first post, I cant get my head around that either, but there are those wanting to give Roy a chance because of his position as the "new" Liverpool manager and for me that is fair enough and that goes wether you wanted rafa sacked or not.

 

Most of these have now seen that Roy obviously will not work out here though but its nothing wrong in wanting to give a new manager some time and thats why I`ve probably focussed most of those who wanted Rafa to stay, and obviously because I know and have a feeling many of these were opposed to Roy because he was not Rafa even if he runs him pretty close in footballing terms.

[JesseRawlins]

The question is why do you have the attitude you have towards them and is there any logic behind it or are you influenced of other things than the football side of it?

 

Following the world ranking of the coaches of the 1st Decade of the 21st Century:

1. Arsène Wenger France 156

2. Sir Alexander Ferguson Scotland 148

3. José Mário dos Santos Mourinho Felix Portugal 135

4. Fabio Capello Italia 120

5. Guus Hiddink Nederland 112

6. Carlo Ancelotti Italia 108

7. Luiz Felipe Scolari Brasil 101

Marcelo Alberto Bielsa Argentina 101

9. Rafael Benítez España 97

 

 

92. Roy Hodgson England 12

[Code]

Following the world ranking of the coaches of the 1st Decade of the 21st Century:

1. Arsène Wenger France 156

2. Sir Alexander Ferguson Scotland 148

3. José Mário dos Santos Mourinho Felix Portugal 135

4. Fabio Capello Italia 120

5. Guus Hiddink Nederland 112

6. Carlo Ancelotti Italia 108

7. Luiz Felipe Scolari Brasil 101

Marcelo Alberto Bielsa Argentina 101

9. Rafael Benítez España 97

 

 

92. Roy Hodgson England 12

 

 

Being the manager for six year period of one of the "top 4" clubs in England during a period where the money involved in the PL made them the dominant force in Europe obviously would put any manager of any of those clubs high in such a list.

 

Rafa was a great manager early in the decade as well before he fell out with everyone and other managers out there adopted his tactics but also developed them even further.

[King Emlyn]

Benitez's time was up, but the decision to appoint Hodgson was unforgivable. Easily one of the worst decisions in the clubs entire history. How the fuck anybody thought he would be a Liverpool manager is beyond me, it was BLATANTLY obvious the man would be a train wreck, it will forever mystify me why the person who took the decision to appoint him thought it would be a good idea. Absolutely fucking staggering. I was negged to fuck for continually telling people he would be a disaster. Sometimes it's genuinely horrible being proved correct.

[ngogswilly]

Why do I get the impression that this thread is about shifting goalposts.

 

To be fair to Code hes said on a few occasions he doesn't want Hodgson at all. But theres been a fair few attempts over the last few months to shift the goalposts from others.

 

It eventually ended though. About a month ago there was still a few holdouts not wanting to admit hes not up to it, but everyone knows now hes not up to the job at all.

[ngogswilly]

Benitez's time was up, but the decision to appoint Hodgson was unforgivable. Easily one of the worst decisions in the clubs entire history. How the fuck anybody thought he would be a Liverpool manager is beyond me, it was BLATANTLY obvious the man would be a train wreck, it will forever mystify me why the person who took the decision to appoint him thought it would be a good idea. Absolutely fucking staggering. I was negged to fuck for continually telling people he would be a disaster. Sometimes it's genuinely horrible being proved correct.

 

Exactly. I was willing to give him a chance at the start but back around the Blackpool game I just fucking knew he was never going to work.

 

Alot of people called it knee jerk back then but it wasn't knee jerk. It was clear as fucking day he hadn't a clue what he was doing.

[WilliamW]

See the RAWK post thread - Rafa was forced into dealing with AS Roma and then Purslow prevented him from playing. Cast iron truth, Ruth. R. Benitez has never done anything wrong, ever.

That post is quoted as truth now? Hilarious! :wallbutt:

[Guest TK-421]

That post is quoted as truth now? Hilarious! :wallbutt:

 

It's cool, you got what you wanted.

 

Enjoy Sunday.

[peruvian_kopite]

I`m sorry mate, but that is some bending of the actual facts rigth there.

 

When did we ever have consistency under Rafa, never mind consistent improvement.

 

As for our away record, in 3 out of 6 seasons we could not get more than 22 points, I`d say that is struggling.

 

Home league:

04/05: 40p

05/06: 48p

06/07: 46p

07/08: 42p

08/09: 43p

09/10: 42p

 

Away league:

04/05: 18p

05/06: 34p

06/07: 22p

07/08: 34p

08/09: 43p

09/10: 21p

 

We were good at home under Rafa, but Roy`s teams have also always been good at home and so far we have picked up 20 points in 10 games even with disasters like the Blackpool and Wolves game.

 

So yes, I think I have a very good case when I point at the similarities between the two, the reason I wanted the former gone and the current never appointed in the first place.

 

Your whole argument on a comparison between Roy Hogdson and Rafael Benitez is based on arbitrarily setting different criteria to assess the level of success each of them has achieved. Thus, everytime someone responds with a reasonable argument on why Benitez was a better manager, you come up with a counter argument that ignores the initial one and fails to reply to it.

 

You have conveniently ignored the argument that we consistently improved under Benitez during its first five years, which is obviously based on our overall final position and overall points tally at the end of the season - which considering that that is is what actually counts to determine who win the league on who goes on to qualify for european trophies or not, and get relegated or not, is pretty strong.

 

04/05: 5th

05/06: 3rd

06/07: 3rd

07/08: 4th

08/09: 2nd

 

From 5th to 2nd, never coming behind the initial final overall position.

 

You cant argue with this, so you choose to do some comparison based on away form and home form. Both Rafa´s home and away form is of course far better than Hogdson´s during the same period, but youll say thats unfair because Hogdson was managing Fulham while Benitez was managing a far stronger team. Different criteria set for different people. Under that bar, we can go on forever.

 

Instead, if you want to have a fair discussion on the topic, Id kindly request you to set up objective criteria to be equally applicable to both managers on a given period of time (of your choosing) to compare them and conclude why it would or would not be reasonable to choose one as a favoured manager while at the same time excluding the other.

[ronnie38]

Ha ha Codes fucking out done himself with this one.

 

CLUELESS.

[G Richards]

If a manager is Liverpool's manager then I do everything in my power to support him because I support Liverpool Football Club.

 

Rafa was rightly dismissed, as we had finished 7th and it had run its course. He deserves some sympathy because he operated under the worst owners in our history. And history will look on him kindly, not least for Istanbul.

 

Roy was brought in as the supposed safe pair of hands while the club was sold. Lots of people were underwhelmed by this, but since we support the club, and since we are a fair minded bunch, we gave him the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately he has been even worse than we could have imagined, and so we find ourselves in the situation we now have.

 

Going forward, I would be looking for some certain qualities in a new manager. He has to be able to set up a balanced team, and perhaps even above all else, he should be more concerned about winning games rather than containing the opposition. We've had a decade of largely containing the opposition and it is not what we need. If he is a leader who is decisive and will take charge of a dressing room where allegedly a few egos are running the show, then so much the better. If he has an eye for a player and is of an age where he can put down some roots and stay for the long haul, again, all good. He should be of a certain character too. I hope he has a professionalism about him and a certain class and ability to rise above it all that used to be known as the Liverpool Way. We need that back too.

[Code]

Your whole argument on a comparison between Roy Hogdson and Rafael Benitez is based on arbitrarily setting different criteria to assess the level of success each of them has achieved. Thus, everytime someone responds with a reasonable argument on why Benitez was a better manager, you come up with a counter argument that ignores the initial one and fails to reply to it.

 

You have conveniently ignored the argument that we consistently improved under Benitez during its first five years, which is obviously based on our overall final position and overall points tally at the end of the season - which considering that that is is what actually counts to determine who win the league on who goes on to qualify for european trophies or not, and get relegated or not, is pretty strong.

 

04/05: 5th

05/06: 3rd

06/07: 3rd

07/08: 4th

08/09: 2nd

 

From 5th to 2nd, never coming behind the initial final overall position.

 

You cant argue with this, so you choose to do some comparison based on away form and home form. Both Rafa´s home and away form is of course far better than Hogdson´s during the same period, but youll say thats unfair because Hogdson was managing Fulham while Benitez was managing a far stronger team. Different criteria set for different people. Under that bar, we can go on forever.

 

Instead, if you want to have a fair discussion on the topic, Id kindly request you to set up objective criteria to be equally applicable to both managers on a given period of time (of your choosing) to compare them and conclude why it would or would not be reasonable to choose one as a favoured manager while at the same time excluding the other.

 

Personally I think we have regressed from the summer of 2006, proportional with how much input Rafa got on the squad.

 

There have not been any real progress under Rafa, we went forward in one area only to go backwards in another, this happened every season, if it looked like Rafa had found a solution to a problem you could bet your house we would go backwards somewhere else the next.

 

It was rollercoaster with just as much downs as ups, those who claim otherwise are, sorry to say this, a bit deluded.

[sunny_LFC]

Personally I think we have regressed from the summer of 2006, proportional with how much input Rafa got on the squad.

 

There have not been any real progress under Rafa, we went forward in one area only to go backwards in another, this happened every season, if it looked like Rafa had found a solution to a problem you could bet your house we would go backwards somewhere else the next.

 

It was rollercoaster with just as much downs as ups, those who claim otherwise are, sorry to say this, a bit deluded.

 

so 08/09 never happened after 2006? :wallbutt:

 

we made progress 04/05 through to 08/09 and then had one bad season.

 

we were fighting against some mega rich clubs and those with mangers settled for over 10 and 20 years. what more did you want?