Gillett and Hicks (ownership saga)

[coop]

So not having the same opinion as yourself on the manager makes people none decent ?

 

TBH Coop I think you need to start separating your opinions on Rafa between his managerial skills and his involvement with none footballing matters. IE: his alignment with Hicks.

 

While I'm paying the best part of a grand into the the clubs coffers then I'll say what the fuck I want to. No matter if you think I'm decent or not.

 

Its a forum mate and we are all human beings so therefore have different feelings and emotions but i do try and see both sides of any subject matter and in the case of Rafa i struggle to see why there is such feeling for him to leave.

 

Its going over old ground but his record of Champions League winners and runners up, FA Cup winner, Super Cup winner and losing finalists in the Carling Cup over what is a short space of time he has been here should account for something.

 

You could mention his league performance has not been up to scratch but we are currently involved in a title challenge which is what everyone wanted isn't it.

 

Also this Rafa's aligning himself to Hicks does my head in because its been taken overboard and made to sound as if Rafa sat at the side of Hicks plotting how they can fuck the club up when this simply is not true.

 

If Rafa went against both owners and called them the cunts they are he would be sacked.

 

Two owners of the club, one saying he wants to leave and has already tried replacing Rafa before and has very little contact with the manager.

 

The other owner has backed Rafa and at least contacts him via email plus he says he wants to stay around.

 

Of course Rafa is going to side more with Hicks but at the end of the day Rafa does whats best for Rafa and that is to take this club forward and have us winning as many titles as possible, he has no personal attachment to Hicks at all.

 

They always say be careful what you wish for as you just might end up getting it and with Rafa gone i hate to see what state this club would become.

 

Alan Curbishley or Sam Allardyce anyone.

[cochcaer]

 

Alan Curbishley or Sam Allardyce anyone.

 

 

And you have the neck to accuse others of exaggerating.:whatever:

[cotter]

And you have the neck to accuse others of exaggerating.:whatever:

 

curbishley and strachan were on the shortlist when houllier left.

[Baresi]

It doesn't really matter if you call it a "coming round" or "what the fuck else are we gona do?"

It still amounts to the same thing. Acceptance.

 

When it first dawned that H+G were only here to asset strip the club' date=' I think the desire to rid the club of the [b']pair[/b] of cancerous twats was one of the very few things we all had in common.

 

You're wrong mate, there are 4 cancerous twats currently involved in the club. Moores, Parry, H&G.

 

Now though there's a definite change of opinion and its an acceptance that Hicks is going to be around for the long haul.

 

I'm afraid I am one of these people at this moment in time. I'm resigned to the fact that he (Hicks) will be here past this summer and no matter what we do, he'll ride it out.

 

ToxtethTerror has suggested that this change of opinion towards Hicks is geared towards his backing of Rafa, and rightly asked the question."If it was Ian Ayres and not Rafa who suggested to SOS that we stop protesting inside the ground, would it have been so readily accepted"?

 

SoS have already said they didn't take any notice of Rafa regarding that request.

 

For me Rafa had no right asking to meet with SOS, and SOS should have politely declined the offer. This is the main reason I wont be renewing my membership, and I stand by what I've said previously that Rafa was just conveying Hicks's words.

 

If that's the case, they should have rejected Parry & Gillett's request for a meeting, no? They would have been stupid to decline the meeting with Rafa.

 

Hicks gives his public backing to Rafa, while it commonly known the same backing isn't afforded to him by Gillett. Rafa invites SOS to a four hour meeting and the only noticeable outcome is the protesting stops. Now the cynic might start to wonder why only Gillett was personally targeted by SOS during their latest visit to the city.

 

I thought it was because when word came through about where they where staying, it was confirmed Hicks had already left the Malmaison but Gillet was still at the Crowne Plaza.

 

Lets be honest SOS are crying out for a high profile person to join the ranks. Maybe this is another question SOS should be asking themselves. Why are high profile ex players like Kenny, Rush, Tommo, and Aldo, not putting their weight behind the Union.

 

There are far to many high profile people who used to be connected with the club and are far to quiet on the whole ownership issue and the damage its having on the club. Why is this ?

 

Majority of these ex players get too many perks to start rocking the boat.

 

The whole club is now rotten to its core, and if come season ticket renewal time the people responsible for dragging the club through the gutter are still here then I wont be attending Anfield again.

 

I hope it doesn't come to that as you seem a very decent red/lad.

[coop]

And you have the neck to accuse others of exaggerating.:whatever:

 

Simnply because the impression that to me seems to be creeping out more and more is that we will sack Rafa, a world class manager and appoint another world class manager who will win the league in his first attempt.

 

Is this likely to happen, who knows but will we attract a top manager.

 

We are Liverpool of course we will attract one will be what many think but that is not likely to be the case.

 

Any top manager looking at the club would ask what money is available, fuck all.

 

Do i get the full running of the managerial post and sign the players i want, no you answer Rick Parry.

 

So why should we sack Rafa is it because we are shite in Europe (currently seeded number 1 club).

 

Is it because we are doing shite in the Premier League (currently second in the table).

 

So come on then someone give me a good reason why we should sack Rafa Benitez from Liverpool.

[Dougie Do'ins]

Its a forum mate and we are all human beings so therefore have different feelings and emotions but i do try and see both sides of any subject matter and in the case of Rafa i struggle to see why there is such feeling for him to leave.

 

Its going over old ground but his record of Champions League winners and runners up, FA Cup winner, Super Cup winner and losing finalists in the Carling Cup over what is a short space of time he has been here should account for something.

 

You could mention his league performance has not been up to scratch but we are currently involved in a title challenge which is what everyone wanted isn't it.

 

Also this Rafa's aligning himself to Hicks does my head in because its been taken overboard and made to sound as if Rafa sat at the side of Hicks plotting how they can fuck the club up when this simply is not true.

 

If Rafa went against both owners and called them the cunts they are he would be sacked.

 

Two owners of the club, one saying he wants to leave and has already tried replacing Rafa before and has very little contact with the manager.The other owner has backed Rafa and at least contacts him via email plus he says he wants to stay around.

 

Of course Rafa is going to side more with Hicks but at the end of the day Rafa does whats best for Rafa and that is to take this club forward and have us winning as many titles as possible, he has no personal attachment to Hicks at all.

 

They always say be careful what you wish for as you just might end up getting it and with Rafa gone i hate to see what state this club would become.

 

Alan Curbishley or Sam Allardyce anyone.

Coop we all know what the owners are about. Rafa doesnt have to call them cunts we already know they are.

 

Also Coop are you trying to suggest that Hicks was totally innocent in the whole Klinsman saga ?

 

Hicks might be backing Rafa now, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking its for any other reason than to cover his own back with the fans.

 

If the day comes when Hicks gets total control of the club and Rafa steps out of line, then Rafa's a goner.

 

My reasons for wanting Rafa gone along with Hicks, Gillett, Moores and parry are political. If Rafa just concentrated on the footballing side of things. in particular the first team squad then my opinion would be different.

[JK1980]

So come on then someone give me a good reason why we should sack Rafa Benitez from Liverpool.

 

Because he hasn't given Jay Spearing, the next Zidane, a game all season?

[lawrie]

My reasons for wanting Rafa gone along with Hicks' date=' Gillett, Moores and parry are political. .[/quote']

 

I don't understand what you mean by this - how would getting rid of Rafa gain political capital?

[coop]

I agree mate Rafa should be kept out of the political side of it.

 

Its also understandable that he is pissed off at having to answer to Parry and therefore wants his contract sorted out.

 

Could you imagine a manager in our situation not getting involved though.

 

We have to be one of the worst run clubs in the Premier League with only probably Newcastle and maybe Chelsea as rivals.

 

Two owners who can not agree on anything other then how they can next bleed the fans dry, a CEO who is just a ornament as he offers fuck all to the club other then a nice pay packet at the end of the week.

 

We have a Life President who along with the current CEO have done more damage to the club then any Man United or Everton fan could ever have done.

 

Under Moores had Parry done his job we would have had a new stadium and wouldn't have needed to seek outside investment but instead they just sat and watched Man United fly by us whilst we were left in the dark ages.

 

Before we start saying things like Rafa out it would be nice to get our house in order first and get rid of the cancer within the club and let us be run like a team all pulling in the same direction instead of about 4 teams not knowing their arse from their elbow.

[ToxtethTerror]

I honestly can not believe all this Rafa out and from posters who up until probably a couple of month ago i thought were decent.

 

That is a shocking comment to make, you are linking indecency with people who have enough doubt about the manager to want him out. In fact it is bang out of order Mr Cooper.

 

noodles - SoS may have said they didn't take notice, but I HAVE NOTICED that protests inside the ground against the owners have stopped.

 

I'd go as far as to say that SoS have failed us just as much as the owners, the manager, Moores and Parry have in that as FANS they have fallen into line with what the manager wants and refused to protest at the ground against the owners because of it. That might seem far fetched but that's what its amounted to.

 

I want them BOTH out and want my membership used to do that, not make protests about away tarvel, Shields and Rafa. SoS was for the owners out.

 

We can deal with Rafa, Moores, Parry and the rest later on.

 

Edit: That above is anger and frustration at the owners, and apologies to SoS for going too far but the depth of feeling against the owners doesn't seem to feed through to SoS.

Edited February 14, 2009 by ToxtethTerror

[Baresi]

That is a shocking comment to make, you are linking indecency with people who have enough doubt about the manager to want him out. In fact it is bang out of order Mr Cooper.

 

noodles - SoS may have said they didn't take notice, but I HAVE NOTICED that protests inside the ground against the owners have stopped.

 

I'd go as far as to say that SoS have failed us more than the owners, the manager, Moores and Parry have in that as FANS they have fallen into line with what the manager wants and refused to attack one of the owners (Hicks) because of it. That might seem far fetched but that's what its amounted to with them only targetting Gillett now.

 

I want them BOTH out and want my membership used to do that, not make protests about away tarvel, Shields and Rafa. SoS was for the owners out.

 

We can deal with Rafa, Moores, Parry and the rest later on.

 

When did Rafa meet with SoS? I may be wrong but the Kop was at each others throats on the day of the Havant & Waterloo game. Did this pre-date the meeting with Rafa?

 

As for SoS failing us more than the owners previous and present. Fucking hell, I'll have some of what your smoking please!

[ToxtethTerror]

When did Rafa meet with SoS? I may be wrong but the Kop was at each others throats on the day of the Havant & Waterloo game. Did this pre-date the meeting with Rafa?

 

As for SoS failing us more than the owners previous and present. Fucking hell, I'll have some of what your smoking please!

 

The last sentence I have apologised for, but some people will know what I mean.

 

I don't know when the meeting was, and don't care. Rafa said protests against the owners should stop and they have.

[kick316]

wind yer neck in. i didnt say he fucked up the league. I think he's been in a position to challenge for the title for some time now but he's concentrated on europe.

 

i do think its more than a co incidence that weve challenged for the title in a season when he wants a new contract though.

 

What conclusion are you implying here? Rafa has purposely held back the team from competing in the league?

 

I would think we're doing better because we have an improved squad, our improved head-to-head records against our main rivals and being fortunate in that many of our rivals are dropping points against "lesser" teams.

 

So you think Rafa orchestrated all that to get a new contract?

[Dougie Do'ins]

I don't understand what you mean by this - how would getting rid of Rafa gain political capital?

OK I'll do my best to explain what I mean.

 

Sometimes I think Rafa is so blinded by his own demands he fails to see the long term effects his demands could have on the club.

 

We all know what Rafa wants in his contract and the only way of getting them is siding with Hicks.

 

Lets suppose Rafa gets the contract he wants of Hicks and after a period of time it goes tits up and Rafa leaves the club. We will still be left with Hicks and his cronies and chances are Rafa will walk straight into another job.

 

Its a no lose situation for Rafa.

 

Lets look at the transfer set up. Lets use the Barry/Keane fiasco as an example.

 

It just seems to me that Rafa doesn't think about where the money is coming from to sign these players. Its all borrowed and the club/we are being hocked up to the eyeballs to keep him happy.

 

Surely he knows the financial plight the club is in, yet I feel as though Rafa thinks there's a bottomless pit of money. And when he doesn't get what he wants the toys are thrown out the pram and the whole world knows about it.

 

 

I'm not saying getting rid of Rafa would gain political capital but they all have the clubs blood on their hands to meet their own agendas.

 

Hope this helps.

[Baresi]

The last sentence I have apologised for, but some people will know what I mean.

 

I don't know when the meeting was, and don't care. Rafa said protests against the owners should stop and they have.

 

Ok.

 

As I said earlier, his opinion was not taken into account and therefore had no impact on the decision to stop the protests.

 

If people really want to protest, what's stopping them? After all a protest occured against H&G after the Chelsea game.

[coop]

I would imagine most managers would not care about where the money comes from as long as they get it.

[ToxtethTerror]

I would imagine most managers would not care about where the money comes from as long as they get it.

 

So like owners you are suggesting the manager doesn't care about the debt on our club? Do you think Wenger cares about Arsenal's debt? I think he does.

[coop]

Do you think Fergie cares that everytime he asks for £30 million for a new striker or £18 million for another young player that it adds to the clubs huge debt.

 

Arsene Wenger does not give two fucks about putting the club into debt but its his policy to sign youngsters and bring them through but he will spend the cash if he feels the need to.

 

His policy is serving him well this season fighting Everton out for a Uefa Cup spot.

 

Nearly all clubs put further debt on themselves when they sign a player and only your sugar daddy run clubs such as Man City do not have this worry.

[Red-Ed]

Rafa is obviously a political animal but the times we are living in at the moment mean he has to protect himself from what is going on around him. To do anything else is naive! How many other people play a form of politics in work....anyone with any ambition will!

 

Would Rafa have had the need to air his views in the public domain if we were not put in this position in the first place?

 

People want us to continue in the traditional Liverpool way but as unfortunate as it is we have to move forward and modernise. Why else are we so far behind everyone else?

 

Rafa is a modern manager - these are modern ways. If he has not made any progress by talking directly, or attempting to talk directly, to those concerned then what other course of action is open to him? I'm assuming he has attempted this, but then a lot of people seem to be assuming things and jumping to all mighty conclusions.

 

We're now TEN points clear of Arsenal and a manager who is acclaimed by many as one of the best managers in the world.

He is competing against a manc manager who is considered one of the greatest of all time.

We are the number one in Europe.

 

Who else is there that could replace him? Maureen? You can raise question marks over him. The Italians haven't been won over yet.

Hiddink? Has he really achieved great things with Russia? He's not a miracle worker.

 

Rafa stands up against any manager out there and is doing a good job.

 

I struggle at times to understand the mass of feelings against him.

[ToxtethTerror]

Do you think Fergie cares that everytime he asks for £30 million for a new striker or £18 million for another young player that it adds to the clubs huge debt.

 

Arsene Wenger does not give two fucks about putting the club into debt but its his policy to sign youngsters and bring them through but he will spend the cash if he feels the need to.

 

His policy is serving him well this season fighting Everton out for a Uefa Cup spot.

 

Nearly all clubs put further debt on themselves when they sign a player and only your sugar daddy run clubs such as Man City do not have this worry.

 

We aren't talking about Furguson are we? If we are, is this is the man who made Man United the global superpower that they are through on pitch success during the boom ans saved them £200m by nurturing youngsters at the same time?

 

I think Wenger does care about the debt, we can agree to disagree.

 

Then I guess I am not here trying to make our manager into Jesus and others into the anti-Christ. Maybe we need a little bit of a reality check. You come across a bit deluded if I may say so with respect.

[Dougie Do'ins]

I would imagine most managers would not care about where the money comes from as long as they get it.

Well Coop, if he cared and was passionate about the club the way he says he is, then he should care where the money is coming from.

 

Its not just about the present day its about the future as well.

 

Like it or not in the whole scheme of things Rafa's time at the club is always going to end. What kind of set up will he leave the person who fills his shoes. At the minute I don't think he sees further than his own tenure.

[coop]

Ferguson is a great manager there is no denying that but he was also helped to the top by Liverpool pressing the self destruct button by appointing Souness after Dalglish left (what did Fergie win whilst Kenny was still here) and signing the likes of Julian Dicks and Neil Ruddock.

 

If im deluded then i will stay deluded because if wanting Rafa out is the way to be then i don't want to be like that.

 

People under estimate the job Rafa has done against not only Ferguson who has been at Man United for years and has them into a well groomed machine, Arsenal with Wenger who had already won the Premier League and went a full season without defeat.

 

When Rafa came to Liverpool he was also up against Chelsea who had just got into a Champions League semi final and appointed a top young manager in Mourinho with an unlimited transfer budget.

 

At this current time he has overtaken both Arsenal and Chelsea whilst giving us the strongest spine to the squad we have had since 1987-88 season.

 

Our keeper is one of the best in Europe, in defence Carragher is one of the most consistent defenders in Europe, in midfield we have one of the best defensive midfielders in europe with Mascherano and in Alonso one of the best central midfielders in Europe.

 

Whilst Rafa did not sign Gerrard he has helped Stevie become one of the best attacking midfielders in Europe and with Torres we have one of the best strikers in Europe.

[Red-Ed]

Well Coop' date=' if he cared and was passionate about the club the way he says he is, then he should care where the money is coming from.

 

Its not just about the present day its about the future as well.

 

Like it or not in the whole scheme of things Rafa's time at the club is always going to end. What kind of set up will he leave the person who fills his shoes. [b']At the minute I don't think he sees further than his own tenure[/b].

 

Just wondering how you can quantify that statement?

 

Surely, by wanting to control the youth set up, transfers etc...he wants the best possible systems in place to provide him with the tools to win the CL and PL. This means that the conveyor belt for good quality youth players must be in place and that will continue when he has gone.

 

You're portraying him as a foreign mercenary of the Winston Bogarde mould...

[Dougie Do'ins]

Just wondering how you can quantify that statement?

 

Surely, by wanting to control the youth set up, transfers etc...he wants the best possible systems in place to provide him with the tools to win the CL and PL. This means that the conveyor belt for good quality youth players must be in place and that will continue when he has gone.

 

You're portraying him as a foreign mercenary of the Winston Bogarde mould...

I think the quality of fringe players at melwood signed by Rafa's people speak volumes.

 

Just because he doesn't get his own way the Kirkby academy is overlooked by the manager while Melwood is over run with players who just aint good enough.

 

Its been debated to death on these boards and the evidence is there for all to see.

[Catch22]

So like owners you are suggesting the manager doesn't care about the debt on our club? Do you think Wenger cares about Arsenal's debt? I think he does.

 

Wenger has spent a lot more than Rafa in his time here