AUDIO RELEASED:

[Mudface]

33 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

I hope my point above is understood or people can see where I’m going, it reads a bit garbled. 

 

Why don't you just suck Webb's cock?

 

(I may have deliberately misunderstood what you meant...)

[Reckoner]

54 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

I hope my point above is understood or people can see where I’m going, it reads a bit garbled. 

Ooh Webby please bum me.

[DaveT]

1 hour ago, Scott_M said:

Although I don’t agree with him, playing Devils Advocate, I can see why Webb would say this.
 

There is certainly a view from supporters about having cake and eating it.

 

On one hand, we all want common sense applying, we don’t want games / spectacles ruined by having players sent off. We all use our hard earned money to pay for tickets / Sky subscriptions to be entertained. 
 

On the other hand, we want the letter of the law applied. We don’t care if it ruins our enjoyment, rules are rules.

 

The referees have caused this situation themselves. Officials can’t apply common sense based on “flow of the game”  to decisions now because if there is something VAR doesn’t agree with, it’ll jump in and intervene. 

“Common sense” says Curtis Jones wouldn’t have been sent off at Spurs. There were reasons he went over the ball, it’s not an intentionally bad challenge. In the context of “common sense”, a yellow was likely fair. However, VAR gets involved, focuses on a still of him going over the ball with now prior context and he’s sent off. 

 

In previous years Oliver would likely have been applauded for “common sense” referring - first challenge a yellow, second challenge a talking too, anymore and your off, keep 11 men on the pitch, an even contest, nobody wants to see players sent off blah blah blah. 
 

With VAR there is no feel to the game. It’s now black or white. Officials can’t decide what rules to apply and when. 
 

Take the disallowed Foden goal at Anfield last season. Taylor was letting the sort of fouls made by Haaland on Fabinho go all game and then when City score from one, VAR pulls it back. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a foul on Fabinho (and on Alisson…) but you can’t have “common sense / spirit of the context etc” and black & white layers over the top, it simply doesn’t work.

 

I feel I’m making excuses for Webb and his hapless band of bozo’s here, I’m not, this is fully a situation they’ve caused themselves, we can’t have “common sense” now because rules are rules and on different weeks, referees apply the rules differently. 

Sorry, Scott, it’s Webb who’s indulging in cakeism. Hiding behind the rules when it suits them - ‘can’t stop the game after it’s re-started’ (although they did just that at Burnley apparently) - but ignoring them when it doesn’t fit an agenda, or backhander,  (Kovacic). That’s not to mention the zero tolerance for the imaginary card (except sometimes!). Or teams grabbing 15/20 yards on throws and free kicks - we don’t even bother trying as we know the reaction from the Taylors and Tierneys. They apply the rules they want, when they want to, and for/against whoever they want.

[an tha]

2 hours ago, Scott_M said:

Although I don’t agree with him, playing Devils Advocate, I can see why Webb would say this.
 

There is certainly a view from supporters about having cake and eating it.

 

On one hand, we all want common sense applying, we don’t want games / spectacles ruined by having players sent off. We all use our hard earned money to pay for tickets / Sky subscriptions to be entertained. 
 

On the other hand, we want the letter of the law applied. We don’t care if it ruins our enjoyment, rules are rules.

 

The referees have caused this situation themselves. Officials can’t apply common sense based on “flow of the game”  to decisions now because if there is something VAR doesn’t agree with, it’ll jump in and intervene. 

“Common sense” says Curtis Jones wouldn’t have been sent off at Spurs. There were reasons he went over the ball, it’s not an intentionally bad challenge. In the context of “common sense”, a yellow was likely fair. However, VAR gets involved, focuses on a still of him going over the ball with now prior context and he’s sent off. 

 

In previous years Oliver would likely have been applauded for “common sense” referring - first challenge a yellow, second challenge a talking too, anymore and your off, keep 11 men on the pitch, an even contest, nobody wants to see players sent off blah blah blah. 
 

With VAR there is no feel to the game. It’s now black or white. Officials can’t decide what rules to apply and when. 
 

Take the disallowed Foden goal at Anfield last season. Taylor was letting the sort of fouls made by Haaland on Fabinho go all game and then when City score from one, VAR pulls it back. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a foul on Fabinho (and on Alisson…) but you can’t have “common sense / spirit of the context etc” and black & white layers over the top, it simply doesn’t work.

 

I feel I’m making excuses for Webb and his hapless band of bozo’s here, I’m not, this is fully a situation they’ve caused themselves, we can’t have “common sense” now because rules are rules and on different weeks, referees apply the rules differently. 

I hear you - but the issue for me is there is no consistency and it is has become a lucky dip and you can't have that.

 

When you have Webb saying Oliver was wrong - and that had he sent Kovacic off VAR would not have turned it over, then it for me begs the question why did VAR not intervene then?

 

But then VAR was of course all over Jones a week prior.

 

They've created this mess and have created the precedents but have also created the wild inconsistency around how they deal with stuff...."Clear and obvious" being the most ridiculous bullshit cop out of all.

 

 

[Scott_M]

1 hour ago, Mudface said:

 

Why don't you just suck Webb's cock?

 

(I may have deliberately misunderstood what you meant...)

 

1 hour ago, Reckoner said:

Ooh Webby please bum me.

Suppose I was asking for that. 

[Razoray]

2 hours ago, Scott_M said:

Although I don’t agree with him, playing Devils Advocate, I can see why Webb would say this.
 

There is certainly a view from supporters about having cake and eating it.

 

On one hand, we all want common sense applying, we don’t want games / spectacles ruined by having players sent off. We all use our hard earned money to pay for tickets / Sky subscriptions to be entertained. 
 

On the other hand, we want the letter of the law applied. We don’t care if it ruins our enjoyment, rules are rules.

 

The referees have caused this situation themselves. Officials can’t apply common sense based on “flow of the game”  to decisions now because if there is something VAR doesn’t agree with, it’ll jump in and intervene. 

“Common sense” says Curtis Jones wouldn’t have been sent off at Spurs. There were reasons he went over the ball, it’s not an intentionally bad challenge. In the context of “common sense”, a yellow was likely fair. However, VAR gets involved, focuses on a still of him going over the ball with now prior context and he’s sent off. 

 

In previous years Oliver would likely have been applauded for “common sense” referring - first challenge a yellow, second challenge a talking too, anymore and your off, keep 11 men on the pitch, an even contest, nobody wants to see players sent off blah blah blah. 
 

With VAR there is no feel to the game. It’s now black or white. Officials can’t decide what rules to apply and when. 
 

Take the disallowed Foden goal at Anfield last season. Taylor was letting the sort of fouls made by Haaland on Fabinho go all game and then when City score from one, VAR pulls it back. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a foul on Fabinho (and on Alisson…) but you can’t have “common sense / spirit of the context etc” and black & white layers over the top, it simply doesn’t work.

 

I feel I’m making excuses for Webb and his hapless band of bozo’s here, I’m not, this is fully a situation they’ve caused themselves, we can’t have “common sense” now because rules are rules and on different weeks, referees apply the rules differently. 

The Kovacic first one is a red card. He is off the ground, out of control, it is reckless and he endangers Odegaard. Even if they make a mistake on that, Kovacic's 2nd challenge is a yellow, but is definitely more of a red than no card at all. 

 

The inconsistency is a bollox. For players, managers and supporters. It is not the referee’s game to play with. The laws/rules are designed by FIFA. Their job is to implement them. Not to implement them with their slant, depending on who is playing, what way the wind is blowing, how early in the game etc.

I wrote in here the week before the Spurs game that they should be a tiny, unnoticed cog in the wheel of the game. They genuinely think that they are driving the whole thing though. The influence on how every game is played and the narrative of it afterwards, is mostly owned by referees. That is madness. If you can't do, teach. If you can't play, ref. 

 

Stay out of the fucking way and just do your your job, ye power-hungry cunts.

Stay the fuck out of the Middle East, ye corruptible, money-hungry cunts. 

Stop temporarily and inconsistently implementing rules like booking players for yellow card waving, to allow you use it whenever suits, you transparent cunts. 

 

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, Razoray said:

you transparent cunts. 

 

 

The audacity is only rivalled by the opacity.

[Reckoner]

18 hours ago, an tha said:

That cunt Webb actually said this tonight....That Michael Oliver, being a top referee, didn't want to give a second yellow to Kovacic as it would "negatively impact the game" 

 

How this can be so is just mind boggling and says it all about these bent cunts.

 

Saying “Oliver doesn’t want to negatively impact the game by overreacting” (his exact quote) as a defence of not sending off Kovacic should bring the sporting integrity of every match refereed by Oliver and any other ref who agrees with that statement into question.

 

The purpose of the referee is to follow and apply the laws of the game. The players and teams "decide" what happens in games through their actions. It is not within the purpose of the ref to decide what is and isn’t “negative”.

 

If Kovacic or any player makes two terrible tackles all the ref has to think about is making the call based on the actions that he has seen. 

 

It’s fucking ridiculous these cunts are getting away with this and it is accepted and for me those words from Webb should be thoroughly scrutinised as a part of investigating and determining if he should remain in his position having uttered them.

Whereas I agree with the point made on the podcast about letting things slide as long as it’s for both teams, and the red card is a last resort,  I would worry professionals learn to exploit it and make cynical or dangerous fouls, especially at Man City but generally everywhere.

[coachpotato]

If a sending off negatively affects the game, and Webb doesn’t want that to happen, then surely his referees should be instructed to send no more players off this or any other season. 
What a pompous, self important twat he is.

I’m surprised the authorities don’t take that and dismiss him straight away.

Well I’m not surprised really, fucking anything goes with the shit shower running the game currently.

FIFA though, they should be made aware and ask for an explanation.

[Supremolad]

Speaking about Oliver's decision to give a yellow and not a straight red for Kovacic's lunge at Odegaard's ankle, a tackle which was nowhere near the ball -

 

"Webb maintained it was the right decision for the VAR to not interject as that would have been “a re-refereeing of that decision”.

 

OK, so why did the "VAR interject to re-referee" the Jones yellow card and recommend upgrading it to red when he actually got his studs on the ball first? This kind of inconsistency is what pisses off many fans.

[an tha]

42 minutes ago, Reckoner said:

Whereas I agree with the point made on the podcast about letting things slide as long as it’s for both teams, and the red card is a last resort,  I would worry professionals learn to exploit it and make cynical or dangerous fouls, especially at Man City but generally everywhere.

When these cunts are overruling things like they did with Jones red card v tottenham - they can fucking do one with their reasoning for not sending off Kovacic.

[Jennings]

You can't expect those guys in Stockley to concentrate when the Ryder Cup is on!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

On 11/10/2023 at 00:37, an tha said:

That cunt Webb actually said this tonight....That Michael Oliver, being a top referee, didn't want to give a second yellow to Kovacic as it would "negatively impact the game" 

 

How this can be so is just mind boggling and says it all about these bent cunts.

 

Saying “Oliver doesn’t want to negatively impact the game by overreacting” (his exact quote) as a defence of not sending off Kovacic should bring the sporting integrity of every match refereed by Oliver and any other ref who agrees with that statement into question.

 

The purpose of the referee is to follow and apply the laws of the game. The players and teams "decide" what happens in games through their actions. It is not within the purpose of the ref to decide what is and isn’t “negative”.

 

If Kovacic or any player makes two terrible tackles all the ref has to think about is making the call based on the actions that he has seen. 

 

It’s fucking ridiculous these cunts are getting away with this and it is accepted and for me those words from Webb should be thoroughly scrutinised as a part of investigating and determining if he should remain in his position having uttered them.

That's the kind of rubbish that pundits have been saying for years: they call it "common sense" that being booked effectively gives you a free hit for another bookable offence.

 

Then they complain about a lack of consistency.

[JustTosh]

12 hours ago, Supremolad said:

Speaking about Oliver's decision to give a yellow and not a straight red for Kovacic's lunge at Odegaard's ankle, a tackle which was nowhere near the ball -

 

"Webb maintained it was the right decision for the VAR to not interject as that would have been “a re-refereeing of that decision”.

 

OK, so why did the "VAR interject to re-referee" the Jones yellow card and recommend upgrading it to red when he actually got his studs on the ball first? This kind of inconsistency is what pisses off many fans.

Right.

 

Not forgetting VAR interfering with the MacAllister's yellow card, upgrading it to a red as it was "clear and obvious". So "clear and obvious" that a neutral panel later had to downgrade it again to a yellow

 

 

[Scott_M]

18 hours ago, DaveT said:

Sorry, Scott, it’s Webb who’s indulging in cakeism. Hiding behind the rules when it suits them - ‘can’t stop the game after it’s re-started’ (although they did just that at Burnley apparently) - but ignoring them when it doesn’t fit an agenda, or backhander,  (Kovacic). That’s not to mention the zero tolerance for the imaginary card (except sometimes!). Or teams grabbing 15/20 yards on throws and free kicks - we don’t even bother trying as we know the reaction from the Taylors and Tierneys. They apply the rules they want, when they want to, and for/against whoever they want.

 

18 hours ago, an tha said:

I hear you - but the issue for me is there is no consistency and it is has become a lucky dip and you can't have that.

 

When you have Webb saying Oliver was wrong - and that had he sent Kovacic off VAR would not have turned it over, then it for me begs the question why did VAR not intervene then?

 

But then VAR was of course all over Jones a week prior.

 

They've created this mess and have created the precedents but have also created the wild inconsistency around how they deal with stuff...."Clear and obvious" being the most ridiculous bullshit cop out of all.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Razoray said:

The Kovacic first one is a red card. He is off the ground, out of control, it is reckless and he endangers Odegaard. Even if they make a mistake on that, Kovacic's 2nd challenge is a yellow, but is definitely more of a red than no card at all. 

 

The inconsistency is a bollox. For players, managers and supporters. It is not the referee’s game to play with. The laws/rules are designed by FIFA. Their job is to implement them. Not to implement them with their slant, depending on who is playing, what way the wind is blowing, how early in the game etc.

I wrote in here the week before the Spurs game that they should be a tiny, unnoticed cog in the wheel of the game. They genuinely think that they are driving the whole thing though. The influence on how every game is played and the narrative of it afterwards, is mostly owned by referees. That is madness. If you can't do, teach. If you can't play, ref. 

 

Stay out of the fucking way and just do your your job, ye power-hungry cunts.

Stay the fuck out of the Middle East, ye corruptible, money-hungry cunts. 

Stop temporarily and inconsistently implementing rules like booking players for yellow card waving, to allow you use it whenever suits, you transparent cunts. 

 

There is definitely cake-ism on Webb’s side as well. When they don’t want challenging, they hide behind “clear and obvious” or “interpretation of the rules” - the Jones / Kovacic tackles are perfect examples. 
 

The point I was trying to make yesterday, possibly badly, is supporters want commons sense and black and white rules applying. 

 

The on-field for decisions for Jones and Kovacic was yellow. In the context of high quality, top of the table contests, I’m fine with those. 
 

You then have one VAR who intervenes and one who doesn’t, so there is no consistency. 
 

There are too many occasions where “common sense” and “rules are rules” don’t mix.

 

Take the handball rule. It’s a mess at the moment. A few years ago (think it during COVID19) all handballs were a foul. Although all factually correct, that then led to “you can’t give that as handball”. Now there loads of different interpretations about what is what - shadows, making yourself bigger, hitting body parts first… and you still see bollocks decisions, like the Luton v Wolves one which was given (which was never a penalty) or the Luton v West Ham one which wasn’t given (which was a definite penalty). 
 

Last season, too many goals were being disallowed because of offside players not interfering in play. The Rashford goal v Man City is given and then there are complaints about an offside player interfering / not interfering in play.

 

I’m sure there are other examples. 

 

So do we want black and white rules applying with potentially more yellow's & reds, less flow & ruined contests or do we want games where they are allowed to flow and the odd tackle is let go?
 

It’s all a cock up of the officials own making. They tried to set a higher bar because our referees are better (Ha!). Then they looked at more because our referees weren’t as good as they thought (unbelievable!) and the VAR guys feel they have to give stuff so you then you got dreadful decisions like the penalty Robbo gave away at Brighton. They’ve completely tied themselves in knots with it. 
 

I don’t know where they should go next with it. It won’t be scrapped. Only use it for offside or absolutely “clear and obvious” errors, like sending the wrong player off or missing serious violent play?

[Babb'sBurstNad]

1 hour ago, Scott_M said:

I don’t know where they should go next with it. It won’t be scrapped. Only use it for offside or absolutely “clear and obvious” errors, like sending the wrong player off or missing serious violent play?

 

Whatever they use it for, they need to mic them up for real-time relay to broadcasters. The lack of transparency over reasoning is eroding faith as much as the lack of consistency.

[Scott_M]

50 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

 

Whatever they use it for, they need to mic them up for real-time relay to broadcasters. The lack of transparency over reasoning is eroding faith as much as the lack of consistency.

Referee’s explaining VAR led decisions worked well at the women’s World Cup. 
 

Who at Anfield last year had any idea why Gakpo’s goal was disallowed v Villa? Or Matip’s v Chelsea at Wembley?

[Barrington Womble]

20 hours ago, Razoray said:

The Kovacic first one is a red card. He is off the ground, out of control, it is reckless and he endangers Odegaard. Even if they make a mistake on that, Kovacic's 2nd challenge is a yellow, but is definitely more of a red than no card at all. 

 

The inconsistency is a bollox. For players, managers and supporters. It is not the referee’s game to play with. The laws/rules are designed by FIFA. Their job is to implement them. Not to implement them with their slant, depending on who is playing, what way the wind is blowing, how early in the game etc.

I wrote in here the week before the Spurs game that they should be a tiny, unnoticed cog in the wheel of the game. They genuinely think that they are driving the whole thing though. The influence on how every game is played and the narrative of it afterwards, is mostly owned by referees. That is madness. If you can't do, teach. If you can't play, ref. 

 

Stay out of the fucking way and just do your your job, ye power-hungry cunts.

Stay the fuck out of the Middle East, ye corruptible, money-hungry cunts. 

Stop temporarily and inconsistently implementing rules like booking players for yellow card waving, to allow you use it whenever suits, you transparent cunts. 

 

 

so the funny thing is, Webb thinks it is perfectly fine for Oliver to referee in the best interests of the game to keep 11 v 11 on the pitch, despite ignoring what are clear breaches of law that should result in a sending off. yet, when they had the chance to stop our game after the restart, they want to stand behind "well the laws are the laws". It's the same hypocrisy as shown by Mike Dean on Saturday "but it's the law", conveniently forgetting he didn't much care about the law as VAR and it might have given his mate a tough time when cucerella got his hair pulled. I actually have no real issue with the idea the ref sometimes makes a call based on merits of the situation, providing he's consistent through the 90 mins. What I object to is the idea that you can be a person who says "the law is the law" until that gets in the way of the outcome you want. 

[CapeRed]

Maybe Webbs theme song

 

[Mudface]

38 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

I don’t know where they should go next with it. It won’t be scrapped. Only use it for offside or absolutely “clear and obvious” errors, like sending the wrong player off or missing serious violent play?

 

That's the problem there though. As you've alluded to, it's tied them up in knots. It's such a woolly phrase that it can be interpreted however the VAR on the day wants to, which leads to the inconsistencies we constantly see. Same with offsides- I'm convinced that it's nowhere near accurate enough to measure down to centimetres, and yet they persist in pretending it can do. That AI system they used in the World Cup seemed fine, so no idea why they haven't adopted that. If and when they do, then VAR involvement should be absolutely minimal.

 

It's also very striking that rugby and cricket have implemented their video replays in a way which complements their games and rules. The standard objection is that they're stop- start games and so VAR lends itself well to it. As football isn't, or at least isn't supposed to be, then VAR really doesn't suit it at all except in very limited circumstances- spending minutes at a time deciding whether someone was offside or not or whether a foul should be upgraded from yellow to red just isn't acceptable, especially (as pointed out repeatedly), there's no transparency in how these decisions are arrived at as we don't have access to real time audio from VAR to the 4th official or ref.

[CapeRed]

47 minutes ago, Mudface said:

 

That's the problem there though. As you've alluded to, it's tied them up in knots. It's such a woolly phrase that it can be interpreted however the VAR on the day wants to, which leads to the inconsistencies we constantly see. Same with offsides- I'm convinced that it's nowhere near accurate enough to measure down to centimetres, and yet they persist in pretending it can do. That AI system they used in the World Cup seemed fine, so no idea why they haven't adopted that. If and when they do, then VAR involvement should be absolutely minimal.

 

It's also very striking that rugby and cricket have implemented their video replays in a way which complements their games and rules. The standard objection is that they're stop- start games and so VAR lends itself well to it. As football isn't, or at least isn't supposed to be, then VAR really doesn't suit it at all except in very limited circumstances- spending minutes at a time deciding whether someone was offside or not or whether a foul should be upgraded from yellow to red just isn't acceptable, especially (as pointed out repeatedly), there's no transparency in how these decisions are arrived at as we don't have access to real time audio from VAR to the 4th official or ref.

The EPL clubs voted against the AI system used at the world cup . They felt it wasn’t fully ready yet in their opinion. 

[Barnesey]

Someone I know (not very closely) works for Hawkeye on VAR. I am told Howard Webb changed the protocols at the beginning of the season and abolished an overseer they called "The Hub". This guys job was to coordinate communication. It is thought if the role had been available the Diaz mess up would not have occurred.

 

I am also told that there is little chance of the audio being broadcast live as every other word begins with an "f" or a "c" - not family (or Sky) friendly.

 

Don't want my acquaintance to lose his job but I'm sure he can be redeployed in Tennis, Cricket or Rugby.

[House of Dirk]

Howard Webb needs his mouth bricking up 

[Mook]

Just reading over this past page & you could get rid of the vast majority of these issues by scrapping VAR.

 

I keep saying it but it has completely ruined Football.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

10 hours ago, CapeRed said:

The EPL clubs voted against the AI system used at the world cup . They felt it wasn’t fully ready yet in their opinion. 

One thing is certain, the AI system was far more ready than the other option.