Scottish Independence, yay or nay?

[Dr Nowt]

I asked a friend of mine who works as a Professor here in the University of Mogadishu about the currency situation in Scotland always in relation to the independence; he said this:

 

Scotland will become one of the richest countries in the World if it gains independence and uses its OWN currency outside the E.U., just like Norway

 

Scotland will be fine outside the U.K. but continue using the Pound.

 

Scotland will be OK with the Pound inside the UK.

 

Scotland will be fucked outside the U.K. but inside the E.U. and by adopting the euro and handing the power the got from Westminster to the paedophiles in Brussels

 

Make of that what you will my fellow Scots.

 

Your friend from Mogadishu,

Nightcat

 

[Sugar Ape]

Anyone else amused by Nightcat trying to rile people up and get them to bite and everyone resolutely blanking him? Worst wum ever.

[stringvest]

The next generation - not just in Scotland but everywhere - won't be much better.

 

How can you carry on living with such a negative view of your fellow man?  Get out there and sort it out Rapey. Seek out the best in people you cunt.   

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Anyone else amused by Nightcat trying to rile people up and get them to bite and everyone resolutely blanking him? Worst wum ever.

He's really a daytime pussy. 

[Sugar Ape]

How can you carry on living with such a negative view of your fellow man?  Get out there and sort it out Rapey. Seek out the best in people you cunt.   

 

I haven't got a negative view of my fellow man. I've got a negative view of politicians. Bit of a difference.

[stringvest]

I haven't got a negative view of my fellow man. I've got a negative view of politicians. Bit of a difference.

 

well, now you mention it, there is a bit of a difference.  

[Spy Bee]

Just now it is Scots who are moving their money to English accounts, not the banks themselves which are moving.

 

It's already been pointed out that RBS is not a Scottish bank, so I really don't know what you are saying in that people are moing their accounts. It just sounds like more scaremongering to me.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Anyone else amused by Nightcat trying to rile people up and get them to bite and everyone resolutely blanking him? Worst wum ever.

Everyone knows there is no internet in Mogadishu.

 

 

Some good debate here but the reality is no one can predict what will happen Sept 19th and beyond for the first few years if it is Yes.

 

But if the Scots want to create a society that more reflects their values than those of England than they simply must take this opportunity and remember that the Scotland they will be building is not going to turn into a Nordic paradise (well, some would say Nordic hell with pints at €10) or be prosperous immediately. There will be speculation, uncertainty, housing price fluctuation, perhaps acrimonious negotiations and those that support Rangers will have to come ip with some new songs and flags.

 

I said before its better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Obviously Scotland is not subjugated to that level but years of Tory Thatcherism and Tory Lite Blairism have left it mark. Do you, as Scots, really want to wake up on the 19th having rejected independence and now shuffle off to Westminster to get some more goodies that your 300 year conquerors are now offering? They may have been nice conquerors, but still nonetheless Scotland is different from England.

 

Quebec francophones succumbed to the politics of panic, fear and uncertainty. You will be isolated in North America, you may not use the dollar, you won't be able to afford universal health care, your pensions will be gutted.

 

I would be worried if the bankers, aristocrats, Lords and anyone else who drinks Pimms in the autumn was ambivalent or even encouraging of Scot independence. They ate panicking for a reason. Not because the UK will be three countries instead of four, not because they love Great Britain, but because it WILL cause that terrible word--- uncertainty. And they fucking hate that.

 

They fucking Romans never got by the Wall and I say to my Scottish brethren CARPE FUCKING DIEM VOTE YES.

 

(First order is seize the Tridents and nuke Murdoch.)

[Paisley Red]

I haven't got a negative view of my fellow man. I've got a negative view of politicians. Bit of a difference.

Fair enough and I would usually be just as negative about politicians but there's something happening up here just now that is making me optimistic. We now have one of the most politically engaged populations in the world and the consensus among Yes voters is that we can and will find less cuntable leaders than the likes of Blair, Brown and Cameron ... and Salmond for that matter.

 

I'm prepared to accept there will be problems and challenges in the short-term so I'll not be accepting any "We told you an independent Scotland would be a disaster" type comments for at least 20 years.

[Sugar Ape]

It's already been pointed out that RBS is not a Scottish bank, so I really don't know what you are saying in that people are moing their accounts. It just sounds like more scaremongering to me.

 

It's HQ is in Scotland. They could move that to England following a yes vote. This would cost jobs and take potential tax earnings away. I think it's silly moving money to a bank in England based on that but people panic.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26531390

 

Bank of England governor Mark Carney has told MPs there was "a distinct possibility" RBS would have to relocate if Scotland voted for independence.

His comment was in reference to EU rules requiring a bank's HQ be where it has the bulk of its activities.

 

 

 

Fair enough and I would usually be just as negative about politicians but there's something happening up here just now that is making me optimistic. We now have one of the most politically engaged populations in the world and the consensus among Yes voters is that we can and will find less cuntable leaders than the likes of Blair, Brown and Cameron ... and Salmond for that matter.

 

I'm prepared to accept there will be problems and challenges in the short-term so I'll not be accepting any "We told you an independent Scotland would be a disaster" type comments for at least 20 years.

 

21 years time... I'll be here! Seriously though, if it's a yes vote I hope it all works out a lot sooner than that.

[Spy Bee]

There is a lot of rhetoric and spin going on. NP is right, nobody can predict what will happen, because it's never happened in modern times.

[Nightcat]

There is no internet in Mogadishu? seriously, are you so ignorant...?

 

Tell the mods to check my IP. I come from the proud capital of Somalia.

 

Back on topic, if Scotland is fucked by Independence, why do your politicians beg them to vote no?

[Sugar Ape]

Everyone knows there is no internet in Mogadishu.

 

 

Some good debate here but the reality is no one can predict what will happen Sept 19th and beyond for the first few years if it is Yes.

 

But if the Scots want to create a society that more reflects their values than those of England than they simply must take this opportunity and remember that the Scotland they will be building is not going to turn into a Nordic paradise (well, some would say Nordic hell with pints at €10) or be prosperous immediately. There will be speculation, uncertainty, housing price fluctuation, perhaps acrimonious negotiations and those that support Rangers will have to come ip with some new songs and flags.

 

I said before its better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Obviously Scotland is not subjugated to that level but years of Tory Thatcherism and Tory Lite Blairism have left it mark. Do you, as Scots, really want to wake up on the 19th having rejected independence and now shuffle off to Westminster to get some more goodies that your 300 year conquerors are now offering? They may have been nice conquerors, but still nonetheless Scotland is different from England.

 

Quebec francophones succumbed to the politics of panic, fear and uncertainty. You will be isolated in North America, you may not use the dollar, you won't be able to afford universal health care, your pensions will be gutted.

 

I would be worried if the bankers, aristocrats, Lords and anyone else who drinks Pimms in the autumn was ambivalent or even encouraging of Scot independence. They ate panicking for a reason. Not because the UK will be three countries instead of four, not because they love Great Britain, but because it WILL cause that terrible word--- uncertainty. And they fucking hate that.

 

They fucking Romans never got by the Wall and I say to my Scottish brethren CARPE FUCKING DIEM VOTE YES.

 

(First order is seize the Tridents and nuke Murdoch.)

 

And there are no bankers and aristocrats in Scotland? And the English are conquerors? Come on NV. On another point ( and maybe for another thread ) granted you'll know a hell of a lot more than me but everything I've read about Quebec makes me think it's better as part of Canada.

 

Tell you what was interesting that I was reading recently, something about Scotland having some of the worst land inequality in the world.

 

http://www.scvo.org.uk/blog/can-land-reform-help-scotland-become-more-equal/

 

Half of Scotland's private land in the hands of a small but powerful group. With changes on the horizon is radical reform finally a possibility?

Oxfam recently outlined the shameful wealth inequality that exists in the UK – the five richest people in Britain own more wealth than the poorest 20%. In Scotland, there is massive wealth inequality evident in our land ownership patterns – a mere 432 landowners account for 50% of the private land in Scotland.

 

There are many reasons this pattern developed and persisted (see the work of Andy Wightman for the details) but ultimately it comes down to the fact that no government has had the will or the courage to address the issue.

 

So is that situation finally about to change? Support for reform certainly appears to be building. The Land Reform Review Group is due to report in May, Environment Minister Paul Wheelhouse has been making some radical noises, the Scottish Affairs Committee are investigating, and the Scottish Labour Party have also made commitments to address the issue.

 

Community Land Scotland has this week made an important contribution to the debate by hosting a seminar with a group of international land reformers. They used that experience to produce the Bunchrew Declaration, a radical statement which adopts a human rights based approach to land reform and emphasises the importance of people and communities being at the centre of land governance.

 

Will all that be enough to achieve the necessary political support required for meaningful land reform? For me, the land reformers are winning the political arguments but to achieve further progress the debate must be widened.

 

The public must become engaged in ways which connects land reform to their real life frustrations. We need to talk more about land reform in terms of affordable housing, community energy, and social and economic development. It also needs to become an important component in wider discussions about inequality and to be built into new economic models such as The Common Weal.

 

We will also need to break the myth that land reform is exclusively a rural issue. When you consider problems such as landbanking and speculation, derelict land, allotments and access to affordable housing it becomes clear how important reform is to urban communities.

 

Take housing as an example. Insufficient affordable housing is currently a significant problem in Scotland that is forcing people into the insecurity and expense of the private rented sector. High land prices ensure that there is insufficient cost-effective land available to build the new social housing we desperately need. Oxfam’s Humankind Index put affordable housing at the top of people’s priority list so it’s vital that land issues are addressed as part of the solution to the lack of affordable housing.

 

Momentum is building behind land reform – the question is how far it will go? Tackling that level of inequality will be difficult and there are powerful interests in opposition. Small steps have been taken to get us this far – will politicians have the courage to make the leap required for radical change?

[Mook]

Personally I think the banks coming out to say they're moving south in the event of a Yes vote was a result of their politician pals leaning on them.

 

Scaremongering at its worst.

[Sugar Ape]

Yet another point that is often overlooked is that with the vote being so close a sizeable minority are not going to get what they want and that will cause problems. There are plenty of people up there who see themselves as both Scottish and British and want to retain that. And obviously just as many people who want to change that.

 

I saw this before and the general trend it seems for countries who vote for independence is a big majority voting yes.

 

RESULTS OF SUCCESSFUL INDEPENDENCE REFERENDA

EUROPE

Yes% ... (Turnout%) ... Country

100 ... (85) ... Norway 1905
99 ... (98) ... Iceland 1944
96 ... (76) ... Macedonia 1991
95 ... (93) ... Slovenia 1990
93 ... (84) ... Croatia 1991
92 ... (84) ... Ukraine 1991
93 ... (85) ... Lithuania 1991
78 ... (83) ... Estonia 1991 (a third of Russians in population)
75 ... (88) ... Latvia 1991 (a third of Russians)
63 ... (64) ... Bosnia and Herzegovina 1992 (Serbs boycotting)
55 ... (86) ... Montenegro 2006 (a third of Serbs)

OTHER

100 ... (98) ... Mongolia 1945
100 ... (92) ... Algeria 1962
100 ... (77) ... Djibouti 1977
100 ... (95) ... Armenia 1991
100 ... (94) ... Eritrea 1993
99 ... (91) ... Georgia 1991
99 ... (98) ... Southern Sudan 2011
95 ... (86) ... Guinea 1958
95 ... (93) ... Comoros 1974
94 ... (97) ... Turkmenistan 1991
93 ... (88) ... Tuvalu 1974
91 ... (62) ... Zimbabwe 1964
85 ... (---) ... Samoa West 1961
79 ... (99) ... East Timor 1999

[Paisley Red]

It's HQ is in Scotland. They could move that to England following a yes vote. This would cost jobs and take potential tax earnings away. I think it's silly moving money to a bank in England

based on that but people panic.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26531390

 

21 years time... I'll be here! Seriously though, if it's a yes vote I hope it all works out a lot sooner

than that.

Aye, well I hope I will be but I'll be approaching 60 in 21 years time. Based on current life expectancy levels for Glaswegian males and the prospect of scavenging for food in the bankrupt third world of independent Scotland I'm not too confident. I'd be the oldest cunt in the country!

[mattyq]

Personally I think the banks coming out to say they're moving south in the event of a Yes vote was a result of their politician pals leaning on them.

 

Scaremongering at its worst.

I'm sure there is some of that going on, mate

There is a logic to it as well, though.

At the moment the Bank of England protects people's money in the banks to a tune of £80k...so if a bank goes tits up then you're guaranteed to get at least £80k back if it's a British bank

As soon as Scotland goes Indy the Scottish banks lose this protection so people will be nervous about this understandably so.

[mattyq]

Aye, well I hope I will be but I'll be approaching 60 in 21 years time. Based on current life expectancy levels for Glaswegian males and the prospect of scavenging for food in the bankrupt third world of independent Scotland I'm not too confident. I'd be the oldest cunt in the country!

Haha, i've been a right miserable cunt on this thread and, obviously, i wish you guys all the best and hope it works out quickly and painlessly

[stringvest]

just move it to the Clydesdale. The money, that is.  That belongs to an Australian banking group.   

[Nunavut Patrick]

And there are no bankers and aristocrats in Scotland? And the English are conquerors? Come on NV. On another point ( and maybe for another thread ) granted you'll know a hell of a lot more than me but everything I've read about Quebec makes me think it's better as part of Canada.

 

Tell you what was interesting that I was reading recently, something about Scotland having some of the worst land inequality in the world.

 

http://www.scvo.org.uk/blog/can-land-reform-help-scotland-become-more-equal/

 

Half of Scotland's private land in the hands of a small but powerful group. With changes on the horizon is radical reform finally a possibility?

Oxfam recently outlined the shameful wealth inequality that exists in the UK – the five richest people in Britain own more wealth than the poorest 20%. In Scotland, there is massive wealth inequality evident in our land ownership patterns – a mere 432 landowners account for 50% of the private land in Scotland.

 

There are many reasons this pattern developed and persisted (see the work of Andy Wightman for the details) but ultimately it comes down to the fact that no government has had the will or the courage to address the issue.

 

So is that situation finally about to change? Support for reform certainly appears to be building. The Land Reform Review Group is due to report in May, Environment Minister Paul Wheelhouse has been making some radical noises, the Scottish Affairs Committee are investigating, and the Scottish Labour Party have also made commitments to address the issue.

 

Community Land Scotland has this week made an important contribution to the debate by hosting a seminar with a group of international land reformers. They used that experience to produce the Bunchrew Declaration, a radical statement which adopts a human rights based approach to land reform and emphasises the importance of people and communities being at the centre of land governance.

 

Will all that be enough to achieve the necessary political support required for meaningful land reform? For me, the land reformers are winning the political arguments but to achieve further progress the debate must be widened.

 

The public must become engaged in ways which connects land reform to their real life frustrations. We need to talk more about land reform in terms of affordable housing, community energy, and social and economic development. It also needs to become an important component in wider discussions about inequality and to be built into new economic models such as The Common Weal.

 

We will also need to break the myth that land reform is exclusively a rural issue. When you consider problems such as landbanking and speculation, derelict land, allotments and access to affordable housing it becomes clear how important reform is to urban communities.

 

Take housing as an example. Insufficient affordable housing is currently a significant problem in Scotland that is forcing people into the insecurity and expense of the private rented sector. High land prices ensure that there is insufficient cost-effective land available to build the new social housing we desperately need. Oxfam’s Humankind Index put affordable housing at the top of people’s priority list so it’s vital that land issues are addressed as part of the solution to the lack of affordable housing.

 

Momentum is building behind land reform – the question is how far it will go? Tackling that level of inequality will be difficult and there are powerful interests in opposition. Small steps have been taken to get us this far – will politicians have the courage to make the leap required for radical change?

I am sure Scotland has its share of elite, every country does. The trick is to stem their influence, which Westminster does not do, nor does the USA.

 

If there is great inequality in wealth in Scotland than it will be up to the Scots to deal with that and it would be easier to do as an independent country.

 

We will never know if Quebec is better off. After the 1995 referendum the government threw them a few bones, passed some disgraceful legislation called the Clarity Act that said 50%+1 is not enough to separate but never set a number that is.

 

My feeling is they would have been better off eventually and so would have Canada. So much time, money and energy has gone into appeasing Quebec which has encouraged right wing idiocy with an anti-French agenda and the view that Quebec whinges all the time.

[aws]

A step in the dark is always a bit worrying but I wonder how many of the numerous newly independent nations of Europe would actually want to go back.

 

Scotland would face difficulties in the early years but they'd have to fuck up pretty badly not to be better off in the long term running their own affairs than relying on the dead hand of Westminster and the gentle mercy of the City of London to look after their best interests.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Yet another point that is often overlooked is that with the vote being so close a sizeable minority are not going to get what they want and that will cause problems. 

Excellent point mate, because it will split the country to begin with, especially when it dawns on Joe Public that things will take ages before a real change comes about. There will be a lot of in-house bickering. 

[Nunavut Patrick]

There is no internet in Mogadishu? seriously, are you so ignorant...?

 

Tell the mods to check my IP. I come from the proud capital of Somalia.

 

Back on topic, if Scotland is fucked by Independence, why do your politicians beg them to vote no?

I know there is Internet in Somalia.

 

The Pirates nick it from the Eritreans.

[Paisley Red]

 

Frankie Boyle is debating independence with George Galloway at 7.45 on Sky News.

 

Galloway supports independence for Ireland, Palestine, Iraq ... every country except his own in fact. He's spent his whole career railing

against the Tories but wants us to accept more Tory governments we didn't vote for. Hopefully Frankie is well prepared and brings up Galloway's pussy cat impression at least once.

[xerxes]

Personally I think the banks coming out to say they're moving south in the event of a Yes vote was a result of their politician pals leaning on them.Scaremongering at its worst.

Not scaremongering, common sense.

 

In England, with the pound, the Bank of England has shown what it can do in a crisis.

 

Scotland will have no reserves, no contingency fund, and no track record. Of course it could put money aside, money that could be used for other things.

 

Some tough choices, and a dose of reality, face a yes vote.

 

There seems to be a sense that Alex has a dream, and that anyone who doesn't dream too is a spoilsport. But like all dreams, at some point you wake up.