*Shakes head* Everton again.

[3 Stacks]

18 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

my initial reaction to your incredible arrogance out of the way, I’ll respond to your post.
 

1. They’re not particularly similar players, granted, but they’re similar scenarios. He’s key was bought at a tender age for a lot of money, and sold on 5 years later, with the “prime” of his years ahead of him,

 

That £11m (correction from the Transfermarkt figure used prior, that must’ve been euros) at the time was our record signing. So a pretty big deal. 
 

While a record to us, that £11m was a fraction of the £36m Crespo went for the same summer, or the £32m Vieri went for the year before.

 

a little like £40m Everton paid for Richarlison being a big deal for them but a fraction of the global transfer record for Naymar or the slightly less obscene £150m for Mbappe the same season.

 

so far, so comparable, hey?

 

you might not know this, but Heskey

also wasn’t only used as a striker, he sometimes got played out wide too. Not very effectively mind you, but he did, sometimes.

 

So far you’ve compared Richarlison’s value with that of Mane and Jota - simultaneously accepting and ignoring that they went for far less money than the £60m were talking about, and despite accepting they both compared favourably to Richarlison in terms of output.

 

 Richarlison plays mostly up front. Yes it’s for a shit team, but his record for them hasn’t been good. It’s been ok. Because he is ok. 
 

 

 

Heskey was 26, Richy is 25. That's a big difference in the market, you have to know that. Adding to that they aren't similar at all stylistically, and it's hard to believe anyone would find the situations comparable. 

 

The Jota and Mané comparisons are apt because they're all somewhat similar in profile and situations, although Mané has been more of a winger, but they all move around the front line, and all played for midtable clubs and moved at around the same age, pre prime. The difference is that Wolves and Southampton both paid more reasonable fees in the first place, which is why they didn't turn around and ask for gargantuan money, but they still asked for more than double what they paid.

 

Everton are asking for 20m more, not double, which is fair considering Mané and Jota were probably better than Richarlison at the time and no one would pay double what Everton paid for him initially.

 

There's room to be nuanced here. Richarlison is not an incredible player, I mentioned his xG is not at the level of what players like Jota's and Mané's were, but he's effective, he has a good goal record for what type of forward he is and he is one of the best pressers in the world. He would fit most big sides because of that, he is a very aggressive, front foot player who will work hard. The interest or price mooted simply isn't surprising. But again, if clubs decide they don't want to pay what is, I will grant, a high fee, that is also fair. 

 

I just don’t like the hypocrisy regarding his conduct given who has played for us in the past and then also the pretending he's some crap player that people can't try to understand his value.

[Bjornebye]

He's key can go in the summer 

[TheHowieLama]

Are there any firm links to Tottenham's interest at that price? 

A player like Rafinha has stirred up real interest from a few clubs - is anyone else seriously looking at Richy la?

 

The 60 mil was euros and that was paper talk and came out weeks ago - I think the only offer was Bergwijn plus some cash. In any case he has done to Everton similar to Mane with Bayern. He has already announced he is going to Spurs - as the selling club that is not a good start for negotiations.

[Bob]

13 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Heskey was 26, Richy is 25. That's a big difference in the market, you have to know that. Adding to that they aren't similar at all stylistically, and it's hard to believe anyone would find the situations comparable. 

 

The Jota and Mané comparisons are apt because they're all somewhat similar in profile and situations, although Mané has been more of a winger, but they all move around the front line, and all played for midtable clubs and moved at around the same age, pre prime. The difference is that Wolves and Southampton both paid more reasonable fees in the first place, which is why they didn't turn around and ask for gargantuan money, but they still asked for more than double what they paid.

 

Everton are asking for 20m more, not double, which is fair considering Mané and Jota were probably better than Richarlison at the time and no one would pay double what Everton paid for him initially.

 

There's room to be nuanced here. Richarlison is not an incredible player, I mentioned his xG is not at the level of what players like Jota's and Mané's were, but he's effective, he has a good goal record for what type of forward he is and he is one of the best pressers in the world. He would fit most big sides because of that, he is a very aggressive, front foot player who will work hard. The interest or price mooted simply isn't surprising. But again, if clubs decide they don't want to pay what is, I will grant, a high fee, that is also fair. 

 

I just don’t like the hypocrisy regarding his conduct given who has played for us in the past and then also the pretending he's some crap player that people can't try to understand his value.

So the comparison with Mane and Jota is fair, except for the comparison with their fee's, which isnt. Righto.

 

And the difference between 25 and 26 is what? From where? Who said? I honestly would like to know if thats come from somewhere other than your head. In my opinion there are 5 ages of a player.

 

Young prospect; pre-prime; prime; post-prime; past-it. That can look different for different players, but there being a huge difference in worth between ages 25 and 26 just doesnt pass the sense test.

 

Essentially, you're saying "something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it", while I'm saying "sometimes people pay more than things are clearly worth".

 

Everton are entitled to ask for it. Spurs are entitled to pay it. But there will never be a universe where I will agree that Richarlison's value has meaningfully increased by 50% over what was already a unjustifiably high price as a result of his performances over those 5 years at Everton, where I think he's broadly been nothing more than ok.

 

It's you that has on multiple occasions tried to equate his behaviour with Suarez, not anybody else.

[3 Stacks]

5 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Are there any firm links to Tottenham's interest at that price? 

A player like Rafinha has stirred up real interest from a few clubs - is anyone else seriously looking at Richy la?

 

The 60 mil was euros and that was paper talk and came out weeks ago - I think the only offer was Bergwijn plus some cash. In any case he has done to Everton similar to Mane with Bayern. He has already announced he is going to Spurs - as the selling club that is not a good start for negotiations.

True. They may get him on more of a discount because of that. Everton will have to be firm.

[3 Stacks]

21 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

So the comparison with Mane and Jota is fair, except for the comparison with their fee's, which isnt. Righto.

 

And the difference between 25 and 26 is what? From where? Who said? I honestly would like to know if thats come from somewhere other than your head. In my opinion there are 5 ages of a player.

 

Young prospect; pre-prime; prime; post-prime; past-it. That can look different for different players, but there being a huge difference in worth between ages 25 and 26 just doesnt pass the sense test.

 

Essentially, you're saying "something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it", while I'm saying "sometimes people pay more than things are clearly worth".

 

Everton are entitled to ask for it. Spurs are entitled to pay it. But there will never be a universe where I will agree that Richarlison's value has meaningfully increased by 50% over what was already a unjustifiably high price as a result of his performances over those 5 years at Everton, where I think he's broadly been nothing more than ok.

 

It's you that has on multiple occasions tried to equate his behaviour with Suarez, not anybody else.

Of course there's a big difference. Other than van Dijk and Alisson, who are CB's and keepers respectively, and thus have their primes at an older age, please name the 26 year old players we've bought for big money under Klopp.  Edit: even Alisson was 25. He was turning 26 a couple months later.

 

I'll save you the Google, it's none. It's all 25 and under. Darwin, Konate, Diaz, Jota, Salah, Mané, Keita, Fabinho. There's a reason for that.

 

The first part, again, I don't think you're trying very hard to understand what I'm saying with Jota and Mané. I think I explained it pretty well.

[an tha]

Don't have a dog in this fight at all but calling that fucking twat 'Richy'....and i don't mean the sarcastic use of 'Richy La'

 

Fucking hell.

[Carra_is_legend]

2 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

I hope you don't think that's an intelligent point and in any way conparable to the Richarlison situation.

Did I quote you or reply to your post? No. I thought I will make a subtle point as you keep banging on about Richarlison scoring 50 goals in 4 years or whatever (I, in fact agreed with you in this thread that he will score more if, say, he plays for Spurs next season). Boo fucking hoo. 

 

As for questioning if my post was intelligent - here is a clue for you - *whispers*......quite a lot here think you are stupid.......

[3 Stacks]

Just now, Carra_is_legend said:

Did I quote you or reply to your post? No. I thought I will make a subtle point as you keep banging on about Richarlison scoring 50 goals in 4 years or whatever (I, in fact agreed with you in this thread that he will score more if, say, he plays for Spurs next season). Boo fucking hoo. 

 

As for questioning if my post was intelligent - here is a clue for you - *whispers*......quite a lot here think you are stupid.......

So, you said something completely irrelevant? Fair enough.

[Carra_is_legend]

Just now, 3 Stacks said:

So, you said something completely irrelevant? Fair enough.

Ah...you missed the clue again.....

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, an tha said:

Don't have a dog in this fight at all but calling that fucking twat 'Richy'....

 

Fucking hell.

Nah - it is Richy La.

[Bob]

4 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Of course there's a big difference. Other than van Dijk and Alisson, who are CB's and keepers respectively, and thus have their primes at an older age, please name the 26 year old players we've bought for big money under Klopp.  

 

I'll save you the Google, it's none. It's all 25 and under. Darwin, Konate, Diaz, Jota, Salah, Mané, Keita, Fabinho. There's a reason for that.

 

The first part, again, I don't think you're trying to very hard to understand what I'm saying with Jota and Mané. I think I explained it pretty well.

We’re not signing him - thankfully - so the Google search can extend beyond just us…

 

so, includes (without going outside these shores) Lukaku (twice), Hazard, Suarez (wash your mouth out!), Di Maria (twice), Mahrez, Aubamayang, Costa, Torres, Lacazette, Sigurdsson, Shevchenko

and Veron. There are others too.

 

I don’t doubt recruitment efforts tends toward players under 25 as a preference but to suggest there are worlds of difference between 25 and 26 is fanciful.

 

And I haven’t misunderstood the point you’ve made about your comparison. Again, I disagree with its premise. You’re not as complicated, and I’m not as stupid, as you try to make out.

[CapeRed]

3 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

He's one of the hardest working forwards in the world, runs like crazy and has a decent goal return for someone who has played for bad teams/has spent time on the wings and off another striker.

 

The Jota and Mané comps are a bit fanciful, those two had higher goal scoring potential, higher xG, but when you work hard like he works hard, you get opportunities in front of goal, and he does a good job at that. It's more that he's 25 and can take a next step for a better team.

he is fuckin bang average shite who thinks he is better than he is

[TheHowieLama]

4 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I’m not as stupid, as you try to make out.

Don't sell yourself short Spunker.

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, CapeRed said:

he is fuckin bang average shite who thinks he is better than he is

Harsh on Bob that.

[Bob]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

Harsh on Bob that.

About right though.

[manwiththestick]

Two pages or so of arguing over whether Richarlison is any good.

 

He's not, he's at his level, mid to lower end of the league player. Let's move on.

[3 Stacks]

6 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

We’re not signing him - thankfully - so the Google search can extend beyond just us…

 

so, includes (without going outside these shores) Lukaku (twice), Hazard, Suarez (wash your mouth out!), Di Maria (twice), Mahrez, Aubamayang, Costa, Torres, Lacazette, Sigurdsson, Shevchenko

and Veron. There are others too.

 

I don’t doubt recruitment efforts tends toward players under 25 as a preference but to suggest there are worlds of difference between 25 and 26 is fanciful.

 

And I haven’t misunderstood the point you’ve made about your comparison. Again, I disagree with its premise. You’re not as complicated, and I’m not as stupid, as you try to make out.

Do you think clubs just stop signing players when they turn 26? It's just more bastardization of the argument on your part. You said it, 25 and under is an important cut off point. 

 

You started this by comparing Heskey to Richarlison, remember? Fucking hell. Maybe I shouldn't take someone who does that kind of thing at face value. 

[Bob]

10 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Do you think clubs just stop signing players when they turn 26? It's just more bastardization of the argument on your part. You said it, 25 and under is an important cut off point. 

 

You started this by comparing Heskey to Richarlison, remember? Fucking hell. Maybe I shouldn't take someone who does that kind of thing at face value. 

Christ you’re an arrogant bellend. You really are.

 

you can’t judge a player without a spreadsheet. You don’t know anything about football if you haven’t got a database behind you.

 

you said there’s a massive difference in fees and challenged me to find a signing over 25. You unreasonably limited that search to Liverpool who aren’t in this deal, so I expanded it and found countless examples, but they aren’t seemingly the type of examples you wanted for some reason. I don’t know why, maybe I should ask, but then I might not understand the answer. You’re complex. I’m stoopid.

 

I didn’t start this with the Heskey comparison. I added it to the Suarez comparison you’d already made; and the Jota and Mane ones you walked back on.

 

You started this by saying you agree Richarlison is worth northwards of sixty million pounds sterling and his value has rightly increased by fifty percent in the time he’s been at Everton because he’s been a huge success.
 

I put the numbers in letters for emphasis.

[Bjornebye]

Add 5 million on top of what they paid Watford for him for every medal he’s won at Everton and there is your value. 

[3 Stacks]

2 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

Take on? Christ you’re aN arrogant bellend. You really are.

 

you can’t judge a player without a spreadsheet. You don’t know anything about football if you haven’t got a database behind you.

 

you said there’s a massive difference in fees and challenged me to find a signing over 25. You unreasonably limited that search to Liverpool who aren’t in this deal, so I expanded it and found countless examples, but they aren’t seemingly the type of examples you wanted for some reason. I don’t know why, maybe I should ask, but then I might not understand the answer. You’re complex. I’m stoopid.

 

I didn’t start this with the Heskey comparison. I added it to the Suarez comparison you’d already made; and the Jota and Mane ones you walked back on.

 

You started this by saying you agree Richarlison is worth northwards of sixty million pounds sterling and his value has rightly increased by fifty percent in the time he’s been at Everton because he’s been

a huge success.
 

I put the numbers in letters for emphasis.

-Weird conclusion to draw. I'm not gonna dignify that and don't care you believe that. 

 

-No, I said there's a difference in the market between 25 and 26 year olds. I used us as an example that loads of clubs see it as a difference. It's an excellent example. 

 

-I didn't walk back on a Jota or Mane comparison, I added nuance to it. Nuance you clearly don't understand. I'm sure you'll call me arrogant for that, but I can't expand on it anymore without repeating myself. You're just being difficult. I explained the Suarez comparison countless times now. It's not about talent. Keep ignoring that, though.

 

-Richarlison has clearly been a success and therefore it's not crazy to say his value would have gone up. Pretty simple stuff. 

 

 

[3 Stacks]

3 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Add 5 million on top of what they paid Watford for him for every medal he’s won at Everton and there is your value. 

I think 40m would actually be fair value for Richarlison, taking everything else out of it. But when a club pays 40m for a player and then that player does well at a club, the value goes up. Crazy concept. 

[Bob]

Simple.

[Bob]

2 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I think 40m would actually be fair value for Richarlison, taking everything else out of it. But when a club pays 40m for a player and then that player does well at a club, the value goes up. Crazy concept. 

Hahahahahahahahaha.

 

You should’ve just said so. Hahaha

[3 Stacks]

1 minute ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

Hahahahahahahahaha.

 

You should’ve just said so. Hahaha

Everything must be funny to lads like you who can't use their brains to discern nuance.