Gillett and Hicks (ownership saga)

[Dougie Do'ins]

Ferguson is a great manager there is no denying that but he was also helped to the top by Liverpool pressing the self destruct button by appointing Souness after Dalglish left (what did Fergie win whilst Kenny was still here) and signing the likes of Julian Dicks and Neil Ruddock.

 

If im deluded then i will stay deluded because if wanting Rafa out is the way to be then i don't want to be like that.

 

People under estimate the job Rafa has done against not only Ferguson who has been at Man United for years and has them into a well groomed machine, Arsenal with Wenger who had already won the Premier League and went a full season without defeat.

 

When Rafa came to Liverpool he was also up against Chelsea who had just got into a Champions League semi final and appointed a top young manager in Mourinho with an unlimited transfer budget.

 

At this current time he has overtaken both Arsenal and Chelsea whilst giving us the strongest spine to the squad we have had since 1987-88 season.

 

Our keeper is one of the best in Europe, in defence Carragher is one of the most consistent defenders in Europe, in midfield we have one of the best defensive midfielders in europe with Mascherano and in Alonso one of the best central midfielders in Europe.

 

Whilst Rafa did not sign Gerrard he has helped Stevie become one of the best attacking midfielders in Europe and with Torres we have one of the best strikers in Europe.

Bit surprised you used the Carra and Xabi to support your case TBH Coop.

 

Carragher was already at the club and lets not kid ourselves about Xabi Alonso. You know as well as I do the only reason Xabi is still at the club is because Rafa failed in his attempt to get Barry and sell Xabi to raise the funds.

[JohnnyH]

I just don’t get some peoples views on this thread. Sack Rafa? It’s just madness. We are second in the league in a two horse race for the title. Why do people want him out?

 

One reason people are saying is his so called siding with Hicks. What do people expect? Hicks has said he is in for the long haul. Gillett has said he wants out. Gillett wants Rafa sacked. Hicks is the only one who actually speaks to Rafa. I want Hicks out, but while he is there, the manager is going to have to deal with him. He can’t rely on Parry at all, so he has to speak to one of his bosses. Hicks has publicly said he backs Rafa, so what is Rafa to do? People need to smarten up on this. Rafa speaking to Hicks (HIS FUCKING BOSS FOR FUCKS SAKE) is not proof of total support. Rafa wants to remain as out manager and is doing whatever it takes.

 

Another reason is that Rafa asked for no protesting in the ground. In the name of God people, what did you expect Rafa to say? Had he said to SOS that they can continue to protest against the owners then he would have been sacked in a heartbeat. Would you publicly slate your boss? And he knows it would not have remained private had he said that. The idea that this should be held against Rafa is just plain daft. As Man Utd fans were protesting against their owners, and a significant number have now gone and started a new team and still hate their owners, Ferguson has come out in support of them. It’s their boss. They have to say nice enough things.

 

As for spending money. Rafa is going to continue to build as good a team as he can so he can get in the CL every season first and foremost, and from there challenge for titles. Rafa will put in his wish list and leave it with the money men from there. Rafa cannot be expected to be the Manager, Financial Director and CEO. As Shanks said, the Directors are there to sign the cheques. That’s their job. If the money is there, Rafa will be told how much he has and he will spend it.

 

While our club has been torn apart by the scum at the top, Rafa has gone about his business and has us in the last 16 of the CL having achieved our most amount of points ever in the league part. And he has us in our first proper title race since, arguably 1991 (1996-7 been a possible exception)

 

I can’t understand what is going on in the heads of some our fans.

[Red-Ed]

I think the quality of fringe players at melwood signed by Rafa's people speak volumes.

 

Just because he doesn't get his own way the Kirkby academy is overlooked by the manager while Melwood is over run with players who just aint good enough.

 

Its been debated to death on these boards and the evidence is there for all to see.

 

I think we may be talking at cross purposes - by fringe I assume you mean squad players?

 

If you have an area in your company that you cannot have a positive input into, yet can see a better solution to the perceived problem? What would you do? Fight to put it right - I hope you would. Especially, when that problem is an area that impacts critically on your role.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with having belief and being strong enough to adhere to your own principles. That's a trait that makes managers great.

[Catch22]

OK I'll do my best to explain what I mean.

 

Sometimes I think Rafa is so blinded by his own demands he fails to see the long term effects his demands could have on the club.

 

We all know what Rafa wants in his contract and the only way of getting them is siding with Hicks.

 

Lets suppose Rafa gets the contract he wants of Hicks and after a period of time it goes tits up and Rafa leaves the club. We will still be left with Hicks and his cronies and chances are Rafa will walk straight into another job.

 

Its a no lose situation for Rafa.

 

Lets look at the transfer set up. Lets use the Barry/Keane fiasco as an example.

 

It just seems to me that Rafa doesn't think about where the money is coming from to sign these players. Its all borrowed and the club/we are being hocked up to the eyeballs to keep him happy.

 

Surely he knows the financial plight the club is in' date=' yet I feel as though Rafa thinks there's a bottomless pit of money. And when he doesn't get what he wants the toys are thrown out the pram and the whole world knows about it.

 

 

I'm not saying getting rid of Rafa would gain political capital but they all have the clubs blood on their hands to meet their own agendas.

 

Hope this helps.[/quote']

 

 

Robbie Keane is an example of Rafa actually reacting with respect & care to our future financial situation

 

He bought Robbie for £20m (his mistake)

When it became clear he was never going to be of the required standard he took the short-term personal humiliation for the long-term good of the club.

(Also in the short-run Keane is better than Ngog so a short-termist manager would have kept him; Anyone caring about our future sells him for the overpriced £15m we got)

 

It would have been far easier to have kept him, not taken that upfront mistake & cost the club far more money.

This is what Souness did with Stewart, GH with Diouf.

 

 

Rafa has an exceptional transfer record precisely because he takes quick losses (Keane, Morientes) & deals for profit (Crouch,Bellamy,Momo) which means that there is little extra cost to add onto the spectacular successes (Pepe,Agger,Skrtel,Xabi,Masch,Torres)

[JK1980]

OK I'll do my best to explain what I mean.

 

Sometimes I think Rafa is so blinded by his own demands he fails to see the long term effects his demands could have on the club.

 

We all know what Rafa wants in his contract and the only way of getting them is siding with Hicks.

 

Lets suppose Rafa gets the contract he wants of Hicks and after a period of time it goes tits up and Rafa leaves the club. We will still be left with Hicks and his cronies and chances are Rafa will walk straight into another job.

 

Its a no lose situation for Rafa.

 

 

I don't get what this means.

Fact is Rafa wants to stay here. This much is clear- If he wasn't committed to the club' date=' he's had plenty of excuses to walk up to now, and he would have walked.

 

That said- its clear the only way he's leaving is if he's fired (or if he's forced to walk away).

So- are you suggesting he should not ask for a contract based on the chance he might be sacked, and we'll have to pay him off?

 

Lets look at the transfer set up. Lets use the Barry/Keane fiasco as an example.

 

It just seems to me that Rafa doesn't think about where the money is coming from to sign these players. Its all borrowed and the club/we are being hocked up to the eyeballs to keep him happy.

 

Surely he knows the financial plight the club is in, yet I feel as though Rafa thinks there's a bottomless pit of money. And when he doesn't get what he wants the toys are thrown out the pram and the whole world knows about it.

 

I'm not saying getting rid of Rafa would gain political capital but they all have the clubs blood on their hands to meet their own agendas.

 

Hope this helps.

 

A lot of this is nonsense.

 

Rafa has said numerous times "Give me a budget and let me do what I want with it".

How on earth does it matter who HE wants to spend the clubs Money on after H+G/ Parry etc, have decided how much he has to spend?

 

Whether you or Parry think its wasteful to spend money on Barry, doesn't matter. If you give the manager a budget he should be able to spend it on who he wants and asking him to not spend it, based on the debt it puts on our club (debt which is there regardless of whether he spends the money) is an astonishing idea considering we're all demanding improvement in the league.

[Dougie Do'ins]

I just don’t get some peoples views on this thread. Sack Rafa? It’s just madness. We are second in the league in a two horse race for the title. Why do people want him out?

 

One reason people are saying is his so called siding with Hicks. What do people expect? Hicks has said he is in for the long haul. Gillett has said he wants out. Gillett wants Rafa sacked. Hicks is the only one who actually speaks to Rafa. I want Hicks out, but while he is there, the manager is going to have to deal with him. He can’t rely on Parry at all, so he has to speak to one of his bosses. Hicks has publicly said he backs Rafa, so what is Rafa to do? People need to smarten up on this. Rafa speaking to Hicks (HIS FUCKING BOSS FOR FUCKS SAKE) is not proof of total support. Rafa wants to remain as out manager and is doing whatever it takes.

 

Another reason is that Rafa asked for no protesting in the ground. In the name of God people, what did you expect Rafa to say? Had he said to SOS that they can continue to protest against the owners then he would have been sacked in a heartbeat.

My point on the whole SOS/Rafa meeting is that IMO Rafa was doing Hick's dirty work.

 

Was there really any need for Rafa to get involved with SOS. It took fours to make such a simple "stop the protesting request" ? I keep asking what else was said in this meeting but nobody seem to be able/want to give answers.

 

Also the excuse for asking that the protests stop for me was laughable. It might affect the performance of the team. How do they cope in stadiums where the home fans are baying for their blood.

 

Could Rafa have just not made such a request via one of his press conferences or through other forms of the media ? He could have asked that we use our voices to support the team as lets be honest there are times when Anfield is like a fucking morgue.

[JK1980]

My point on the whole SOS/Rafa meeting is that IMO Rafa was doing Hick's dirty work.

 

Was there really any need for Rafa to get involved with SOS. It took fours to make such a simple "stop the protesting request" ? I keep asking what else was said in this meeting but nobody seem to be able/want to give answers.

 

Also the excuse for asking that the protests stop for me was laughable. It might affect the performance of the team. How do they cope in stadiums where the home fans are baying for their blood.

 

Could Rafa have just not made such a request via one of his press conferences or through other forms of the media ? He could have asked that we use our voices to support the team as lets be honest there are times when Anfield is like a fucking morgue.

 

Numerous fans stated, way before Rafa did, that protesting at the games was a no-no for them.

[ToxtethTerror]

Wenger has spent a lot more than Rafa in his time here

 

That old wages chestnut... I am sure when you add up the wages, and the transfer fees in and out Wenger will have spent less. You're posts are almost bordering on the moronic by each day. You are one of those guys that plays too many computer games - when did you last go to a game?

[ToxtethTerror]

Had he said to SOS that they can continue to protest against the owners then he would have been sacked in a heartbeat. Would you publicly slate your boss?

 

Errm who exactly is Parry, his boss or not?

 

And Rafa didn't have to say anything SoS, you're a bit simple aren't you if you think that way?

 

I totally agree with a lof of your post but that there were two nuggets of both contradiction and ridiculous excuse making.

[JK1980]

That old wages chestnut... I am sure when you add up the wages, and the transfer fees in and out Wenger will have spent less. You're posts are almost bordering on the moronic by each day. You are one of those guys that plays too many computer games - when did you last go to a game?

 

Speaking of moronic...

 

*sigh*

[JohnnyH]

My point on the whole SOS/Rafa meeting is that IMO Rafa was doing Hick's dirty work.

 

Was there really any need for Rafa to get involved with SOS. It took fours to make such a simple "stop the protesting request" ? I keep asking what else was said in this meeting but nobody seem to be able/want to give answers.

 

Also the excuse for asking that the protests stop for me was laughable. It might affect the performance of the team. How do they cope in stadiums where the home fans are baying for their blood.

 

Could Rafa have just not made such a request via one of his press conferences or through other forms of the media ? He could have asked that we use our voices to support the team as lets be honest there are times when Anfield is like a fucking morgue.

 

But that meeting went on for hours didn't it? The protesting at the ground was only one part of the meeting.

[ToxtethTerror]

Rafa has said numerous times "Give me a budget and let me do what I want with it".

How on earth does it matter who HE wants to spend the clubs Money on after H+G/ Parry etc, have decided how much he has to spend?

 

Whether you or Parry think its wasteful to spend money on Barry, doesn't matter. If you give the manager a budget he should be able to spend it on who he wants and asking him to not spend it, based on the debt it puts on our club (debt which is there regardless of whether he spends the money) is an astonishing idea considering we're all demanding improvement in the league.

 

Even Ferguson is vetoed, as he admitted last week when he said he tried to sign Van Der Saar 8 years ago and the the board said no. I don't think any manager not even Ferguson should be allowed to "just be given a budget and do as he pleases" - thats a nonsense. All multi million deals need to be checked and rubber stamped by a board of directors - otherwise what's stopping a manager buying a team of 30 year olds, winning the league and then leaving a team that is orthless, with no success and a whole squad to rebuild?

[SpeedyG]

My point on the whole SOS/Rafa meeting is that IMO Rafa was doing Hick's dirty work.

 

Whereas others (including the fans in the crowd shouting down the boo'ers) were saying he was doing it because that atmosphere was counterproductive to getting results on the pitch.

 

Was there really any need for Rafa to get involved with SOS. It took fours to make such a simple "stop the protesting request" ? I keep asking what else was said in this meeting but nobody seem to be able/want to give answers.

 

Manager meets fans. Is condemned for doing so!?!?!?!?!? Bizzare.

 

Also the excuse for asking that the protests stop for me was laughable. It might affect the performance of the team. How do they cope in stadiums where the home fans are baying for their blood.

 

So you think the whole 12th man thing is bullshit?

 

 

Could Rafa have just not made such a request via one of his press conferences or through other forms of the media ? He could have asked that we use our voices to support the team as lets be honest there are times when Anfield is like a fucking morgue.

 

As you say you don't know what the meeting was about. You know of one item that was discussed. If that was the only item then maybe the course you suggest makes sense. But you seem to be making a case to hang the guy on the basis of a meeting that you don't even know about!

[JK1980]

Even Ferguson is vetoed, as he admitted last week when he said he tried to sign Van Der Saar 8 years ago and the the board said no. I don't think any manager not even Ferguson should be allowed to "just be given a budget and do as he pleases" - thats a nonsense. All multi million deals need to be checked and rubber stamped by a board of directors - otherwise what's stopping a manager buying a team of 30 year olds, winning the league and then leaving a team that is orthless, with no success and a whole squad to rebuild?

 

Is that actually gonna fucking happen with Rafa though?

What if he pays 25 Terrorsits a Million each to suicide Bomb Anfield? What if he sits in his office for 3 weeks straight burning all the money a Fiver at a time while singing the French national Anthem? Just Nonsense.

 

If you've hired a Manager who I assume you've spoken to before you hired him and you agree with with his general ideas you give him a budget and let him spend it. If you think you know better than the manager sack the manager and do his job yourself.

[Dougie Do'ins]

But that meeting went on for hours didn't it? The protesting at the ground was only one part of the meeting.

Yes it did go on for hours, about four hours to be more precise. So what was said during the rest of this meeting ? to give any real reason for it to have taken place.

 

If you could find out I'd be most grateful but I wont hold my breath.

[ToxtethTerror]

Whereas others (including the fans in the crowd shouting down the boo'ers) were saying he was doing it because that atmosphere was counterproductive to getting results on the pitch.

 

Manager meets fans. Is condemned for doing so!?!?!?!?!? Bizzare.

 

So you think the whole 12th man thing is bullshit?

 

As you say you don't know what the meeting was about. You know of one item that was discussed. If that was the only item then maybe the course you suggest makes sense. But you seem to be making a case to hang the guy on the basis of a meeting that you don't even know about!

 

You are a really odd bloke aren't you?

 

Let's address each of your little snidey posts:

 

1. Who cares about the atmosphere being counter productive? What's more important - the owners out or a 11 grown men getting nervous?

 

2. Manager meets, fans requests protests against owners to stop - manager is getting into politics - no?

 

3. Everyone knows the whole meeting details, it was posted on here.

 

Look mate, I don't think anybody cares if Rafa meets SoS - SoS's biggest success was the Rafa march so he should be thanking them if anything, but getting involved in what SoS can and can't do with regard the owners is not in his pay packet.

[ToxtethTerror]

Is that actually gonna fucking happen with Rafa though?

What if he pays 25 Terrorsits a Million each to suicide Bomb Anfield? What if he sits in his office for 3 weeks straight burning all the money a Fiver at a time while singing the French national Anthem? Just Nonsense.

 

If you've hired a Manager who I assume you've spoken to before you hired him and you agree with with his general ideas you give him a budget and let him spend it. If you think you know better than the manager sack the manager and do his job yourself.

 

The policy shouldn't be altered for any manager, it has to be a fair system and a process that applies to all managers - its called diligence and compliance - something all well run businesses have.

 

No manager in the world has carte blanche be it in football or commerce - even £25k a year Marketing Executives have to have a 2nd interview with Human Resources and maybe AN Other.

 

Rafa should be working with the scouts to identify targets, no player should be bought without his say so, but certainly he shouldn't be negotiating contracts or buying players without board approval.

 

Now you may say Parry knows fuck all, well then the board need to appoint people onto the board that do know a bit. As I said, even Ferguson is vetoed and that was the season after he won a treble. Get my drift?

[Dougie Do'ins]

Whereas others (including the fans in the crowd shouting down the boo'ers) were saying he was doing it because that atmosphere was counterproductive to getting results on the pitch. Well as I've said not protesting hardly had the desired effect did it.

 

 

Manager meets fans. Is condemned for doing so!?!?!?!?!? Bizzare.It wasn't as simple as that and you know it.

 

 

So you think the whole 12th man thing is bullshit? You know as well as I do the 12th man thing only happens at about four or five league games and European nights.

 

 

 

As you say you don't know what the meeting was about. You know of one item that was discussed. If that was the only item then maybe the course you suggest makes sense. But you seem to be making a case to hang the guy on the basis of a meeting that you don't even know about!

As a paid up member have every right to know what went on in the meeting, as the committee members who attended that meeting were there to supposedly represent the union and its members and then convey the agenda to its members. Unless they have something to hide.

[Catch22]

That old wages chestnut... I am sure when you add up the wages, and the transfer fees in and out Wenger will have spent less. You're posts are almost bordering on the moronic by each day. You are one of those guys that plays too many computer games - when did you last go to a game?

 

 

I did add that up the other day in a post.

If you could find errors in it please do as it is not perfect.

 

Wage costs are far more important than transfers fees since Bosman as a player's value is now 0 at the end of his contract

 

Wenger spends more than our manager does.

Arsenal have a far higher footballing budget as they get over £3m per home game whilst we barely push into 7 figures.

 

Yet again the attacks on Rafa are shown to be factually incorrect so people have to resort to personal abuse of him or anybody who points that out.

It merely reveals quite how poor the argumenst against him are

[coop]

Ferguson was vetoed but ended up signing Van der Sar eventually therefore proving the board were wrong in the first place as they could have had him much sooner.

[JK1980]

The policy shouldn't be altered for any manager, it has to be a fair system and a process that applies to all managers - its called diligence and compliance - something all well run businesses have.

 

No manager in the world has carte blanche be it in football or commerce - even £25k a year Marketing Executives have to have a 2nd interview with Human Resources and maybe AN Other.

 

Rafa should be working with the scouts to identify targets, no player should be bought without his say so, but certainly he shouldn't be negotiating contracts or buying players without board approval.

 

Now you may say Parry knows fuck all, well then the board need to appoint people onto the board that do know a bit. As I said, even Ferguson is vetoed and that was the season after he won a treble. Get my drift?

 

Ferguson was vetoed. Great. Fergie gets to spend 30-40M a year on practically whoever he wants- I hardly think him getting vetoed on a goalie 10 years ago is ground-breaking, evidence here.

 

Rafa works with a limited budget (20M + sales, a season?) and he controls how the team plays- Its only right he decides which players he buys for his team.

[Ted]

I did add that up the other day in a post.

If you could find errors in it please do as it is not perfect.

 

Wage costs are far more important than transfers fees since Bosman as a player's value is now 0 at the end of his contract

 

Wenger spends more than our manager does.

Arsenal have a far higher footballing budget as they get over £3m per home game whilst we barely push into 7 figures.

 

Yet again the attacks on Rafa are shown to be factually incorrect so people have to resort to personal abuse of him or anybody who points that out.

It merely reveals quite how poor the argumenst against him are

 

Wenger's been in this country 11 years. Is it any surprise he's spent more than Benitez?

[ToxtethTerror]

I did add that up the other day in a post.

If you could find errors in it please do as it is not perfect.

 

Wage costs are far more important than transfers fees since Bosman as a player's value is now 0 at the end of his contract

 

Wenger spends more than our manager does.

Arsenal have a far higher footballing budget as they get over £3m per home game whilst we barely push into 7 figures.

 

Yet again the attacks on Rafa are shown to be factually incorrect so people have to resort to personal abuse of him or anybody who points that out.

It merely reveals quite how poor the argumenst against him are

 

Bizarre - how much did each spend on transfer fees (in and out) last summer? Or over the past 4 years?

[Catch22]

Even Ferguson is vetoed, as he admitted last week when he said he tried to sign Van Der Saar 8 years ago and the the board said no. I don't think any manager not even Ferguson should be allowed to "just be given a budget and do as he pleases" - thats a nonsense. All multi million deals need to be checked and rubber stamped by a board of directors - otherwise what's stopping a manager buying a team of 30 year olds, winning the league and then leaving a team that is orthless, with no success and a whole squad to rebuild?

 

 

You are correct here.

 

The best example of a manager achieving short-term success with an inherited side which would probably avhieved it anyway, then spunking loadsa cash on failiures (SWP for >£20m) & 30+ year olds (£30m in fees + £7m pa on Shevchenko, £35m in wages for Ballack) is Jose Mourinho

[ToxtethTerror]

Ferguson was vetoed but ended up signing Van der Sar eventually therefore proving the board were wrong in the first place as they could have had him much sooner.

 

THE POINT WAS HE WAS VETOED a year after winning the treble - Or does that not your argument?