A Few Thoughts from the Match: Liverpool 1 Burnley 1

[Paul]

And here's a classic response. If people are being alienated, Id say that's a perfect example of their inadequacies. Its also highlights the self importance someone mentioned on another thread, the idea that fans have more of a clue than the manager. It is like when you get the overblown biffa munching on a pie in the stand telling one of the player's they are a fat lazy cunt because they didnt get to a through ball.

 

You've also got one or two people on here wanting benitez back as manager.

 

Now I appreciate sometimes when a manager is at the end of their spell in charge, they do lose it.

Still don't know what this "inadequacies" stuff refers to.

 

However, your deference to someone who is just another bloke is embarrsssing. I don't think I know better than him about how to do his job and I certainly respect his track record and level of expertise. However, like virtually everyone else, I can see that one aspect of his job has shown no signs of improvement after 2/3 years in charge. I also think that spitting his dummy out when that becomes frustrating to people who spend a fortune to watch is counter-productive.

[jimmycase]

Or see it as facile nonsense. "He cares. He can't help it." is pretty risible as justification for behaviour which is actually self-defeating.

 

I'm not criticising him showing passion; I'm criticism him kicking off at the fans. We are not here to serve him and the team. They are here to entertain us because we literally pay them an absolute fucking fortune to play football.

 

Yes they deserve our support and yes we need to do our best with that. However, if we are frustrated by the same problems which are years old and he's had years to sort out, then I think the balance of fault lies pretty squarely on the manager's shoulders rather than those of the fans.

 

You dont seem to comprehend Klopp wears his heart on his sleeve. A person who runs up and down the touchline shouting 'that is football' or 'here no one can beat us' in the face of the 4th official shows this. You cant in the next breath expect the same show of emotions to be reeled in when he hears fans behind the dugout then slagging off his players.

 

Well, it seems some people do expect him to switch off in those circumstances but it's totally unrealistic. So although you say you're not critising the passion, you are because his passions isnt compartmentalised, it's free flowing.

 

Klopp is what he is, you either take the whole or not. People cant peel layers off him like an onion keeping the bits they like and chucking awya the bits they dont. That's just how it is.

[jimmycase]

Yeah that was me I think.

And I was saying we have more of a clue about being Liverpool supporters than him.

Not about being managers.

 

Still, keep having a laugh.

 

Unless you were posting as liverpoolno9, no, it wasnt.

 

This.  

 

Although I don't it.

 

Not as much fun as I am, though. What does 'I don't it' mean exactly?

[s(k)aturation]

You dont seem to comprehend Klopp wears his heart on his sleeve. A person who runs up and down the touchline shouting 'that is football' or 'here no one can beat us' in the face of the 4th official shows this. You cant in the next breath expect the same show of emotions to be reeled in when he hears fans behind the dugout then slagging off his players.

 

Well, it seems some people do expect him to switch off in those circumstances but it's totally unrealistic. So although you say you're not critising the passion, you are because his passions isnt compartmentalised, it's free flowing.

 

Klopp is what he is, you either take the whole or not. People cant peel layers off him like an onion keeping the bits they like and chucking awya the bits they dont. That's just how it is.

 

 

Cut Liverpool supporters the same slack then.

[Paul]

You dont seem to comprehend Klopp wears his heart on his sleeve. A person who runs up and down the touchline shouting 'that is football' or 'here no one can beat us' in the face of the 4th official shows this. You cant in the next breath expect the same show of emotions to be reeled in when he hears fans behind the dugout then slagging off his players.

 

Well, it seems some people do expect him to switch off in those circumstances but it's totally unrealistic. So although you say you're not critising the passion, you are because his passions isnt compartmentalised, it's free flowing.

 

Klopp is what he is, you either take the whole or not. People cant peel layers off him like an onion keeping the bits they like and chucking awya the bits they dont. That's just how it is.

You don't seem to accept that an intelligent, professional, middle-aged parent can exercise self-control when it's in his own interests to do so. Bizarre.

 

He's not sitting in The Kop, he's at work!

[s(k)aturation]

What does 'I don't it' mean exactly?

 

My deepest apologies, Jim.  I left out "get".

 

You know, as in "fucked".

[stringvest]

You don't seem to accept that an intelligent, professional, middle-aged parent can exercise self-control when it's in his own interests to do so. Bizarre.

 

He's not sitting in The Kop, he's at work!

 

 

it's amazing, isn't it?

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

Klopp probably should go back to Germany if he wants strong crowd support. It's long dead in English football with the bigger teams grounds being library's full of moaning cunts who think they've paid tbeir money to sit and be entertained.

 

He must be kicking himself about buying these tales of great Anfield atmospheres.

True, unfortunately. Ticket prices probably being the main reason.

[s(k)aturation]

it's amazing, isn't it?

 

 

Not really.

 

There's was one under the bridge in "Three Billy Goats Gruff" centuries ago.

 

Nothing's changed.

[stringvest]

Not really.

 

There's was one under the bridge in "Three Billy Goats Gruff" centuries ago.

 

Nothing's changed.

 

 

I don't think he's a troll at all.  I think he's a moron. 

[s(k)aturation]

I don't think he's a troll at all.  I think he's a moron. 

 

 

Yes, I suppose the former can be interesting.

[jimmycase]

Still don't know what this "inadequacies" stuff refers to.

 

However, your deference to someone who is just another bloke is embarrsssing. I don't think I know better than him about how to do his job and I certainly respect his track record and level of expertise. However, like virtually everyone else, I can see that one aspect of his job has shown no signs of improvement after 2/3 years in charge. I also think that spitting his dummy out when that becomes frustrating to people who spend a fortune to watch is counter-productive.

 

Well you and others keep banging on about not showing signs of improvement while at the same time not acknowledging efforts have been made to make those very improvements.

 

He brought in matip to try and address defensive issues. He brought in Karius to address goalkeeping issues. He brought in robertson to address the left back issues. He wanted to bring in van dijk which virtually everyone thinks is going to be a panacea to defensive issues.

 

OK, it's clear to all these have met with greater or lesser extent of success or are a work in progress. But the notion he's done nothing in 2 or 3 years is just pap dreamt up by inadequate people who cant see beyond their own perceptions.

[Rotpeter]

Burnley have an away draw against Spurs and an away win against Chelsea this season too.

It was a good chance to see, if he is any closer to a formulation for cracking the park the bus teams.  

 

It's obviously still a WIP but defensive error and the lack of fluency from Coutinho & Sturridge, aside, it seemed OK.

 

In future, when AOC is up to speed, I'd use him as the starting inside forward and leave firminho central.  There's still too much drop off in fluidity when he moves out wide.  Sturridge doesn't link as well and firminho is less creative.

 

Other than the mistake, the defence against these type of teams was OK.

 

Positive signs IMO.  

[stringvest]

Yes, I suppose the former can be interesting.

 

 

Anyway.  It's an interesting shift in the relationship between Klopp and the match going fans.  I don't know whether or not he ever recognised (or was even exposed to) any misgivings the fans had with his approach while he was in Germany.  Maybe it's a new thing for him.  

 

We could soon be in the weird situation where other football fans look on Klopp with more affection than the Liverpool fans who go the game.  

[jimmycase]

You don't seem to accept that an intelligent, professional, middle-aged parent can exercise self-control when it's in his own interests to do so. Bizarre.

 

He's not sitting in The Kop, he's at work!

 

No, what's bizarre is you think seem to think a professional high pressure sport like football is the same as some dreary office environment where people are regimented.

 

Personally, I think its refreshing.

[jimmycase]

Cut Liverpool supporters the same slack then.

 

He's trying to shake some out of their mental straight jackets. Like when he said he never felt so alone when lots of fans fucked off with 8 minutes to go against palace. He was saying you all sign YNWA with gusto then fuck off when the team needs support.

[Moo]

However, like virtually everyone else, I can see that one aspect of his job has shown no signs of improvement after 2/3 years in charge.

Can't let the above bit pass without comment as I think it's a bit out of order and at best lazy to not be specific on the timescales.

Firstly, it's not even 2 years for Klopp yet. Secondly, the difference between 2 and 3 years in football is massive, we of all supporters should know that. We're not talking about the difference between 5 and 6 years here, we're talking about an extra 50% on top of the time he's had so far.

It would have been much more accurate to say "less than 2 years" rather than "2/3 years", but I guess that wouldn't have fit in with what you were trying to portray.

[s(k)aturation]

He's trying to shake some out of their mental straight jackets. Like when he said he never felt so alone when lots of fans fucked off with 8 minutes to go against palace. He was saying you all sign YNWA with gusto then fuck off when the team needs support.

 

 

You're hopefully not right.

But if you were... again, I say he's just a fucking football manager.

 

Not a psychiatrist.

[Mr T]

This is his third season here. You would expect to see some improvement in the defence by now.

[Moo]

This is his third season here. You would expect to see some improvement in the defence by now.

The use of the word season is different to using the word year. I could turn the "season" thing round and say he's had one full season, that's as much a fact as your statement is.

[Paul]

Well you and others keep banging on about not showing signs of improvement while at the same time not acknowledging efforts have been made to make those very improvements.

 

He brought in matip to try and address defensive issues. He brought in Karius to address goalkeeping issues. He brought in robertson to address the left back issues. He wanted to bring in van dijk which virtually everyone thinks is going to be a panacea to defensive issues.

 

OK, it's clear to all these have met with greater or lesser extent of success or are a work in progress. But the notion he's done nothing in 2 or 3 years is just pap dreamt up by inadequate people who cant see beyond their own perceptions.

I didn't say/imply he'd done nothing - the points you've made are patently evident points of fact; I simply said/implied the problem isn't resolved.

 

I have to say though I find your obsequious level of deference towards authority to be incredible - both as a Red and as someone living in contemporary society. Shanks - our founding father, in many ways - recognised the absolute importance of the fans above all others. Furthermore the notion that trust in authority figures should be unquestioning is an insult to all. Both Liverpool and broader society has been failed by authority figures time after time. Of course I'm not drawing parallels between Klopp and the corrupt cunts who've shafted ordinary people so frequently. But I am bewildered how anyone could adopt such an uncritical gaze.

 

I'm not calling for Klopp's head. I think there's a huge amount to admire about him and the job he's done and I can also see clear progress either underway or in place for the future.

 

However, on the specific issue of our defending he is responsible for a situation where pretty much all fans expert fundamental and costly errors every time we play. Getting angry with fans for reacting to a long-standing problem he has not been able to improve is futile and self-defeating and it's in his interests to stop it. I find it absolutely bewildering that anyone could have a problem with that point. Unless you think kicking off on the fans will turn out well, in which case good luck to you.

 

As for inadequacies, you either do not understand what the word means or you're just lashing out because you can't address the points I'm making and it's frustrating you.

[jimmycase]

You're hopefully not right.

But if you were... again, I say he's just a fucking football manager.

 

Not a psychiatrist.

 

Haha. There's the literal side of you coming to the front again. Im beginning to see why you get so many thing wrong.

[Mr T]

Yes. Season and year are different but most of the time, not by much. Perhaps it would be simpler to talk about the number of transfer windows he has had.

 

Or rather than focusing on language pedantry, acknowledge or challenge the substantive point that he has had enough time that we can reasonably expect some improvement in our defence.

[moof]

I think it's crazy that people pay loads of money to go and sit in a stadium only to whine and moan and criticise and snipe and lose their shit at the first sign of a backwards pass.

 

If being a Liverpool fan has taught me anything it's that a group of people united behind one cause can be an incredibly powerful force. All Klopp wants is to tap into that, to give the team the conditions where they can flourish and play with confidence and freedom. Does anyone think the support at anfield is actually helping the team in most games?

[Paul]

Can't let the above bit pass without comment as I think it's a bit out of order and at best lazy to not be specific on the timescales.

Firstly, it's not even 2 years for Klopp yet. Secondly, the difference between 2 and 3 years in football is massive, we of all supporters should know that. We're not talking about the difference between 5 and 6 years here, we're talking about an extra 50% on top of the time he's had so far.

It would have been much more accurate to say "less than 2 years" rather than "2/3 years", but I guess that wouldn't have fit in with what you were trying to portray.

Far too conspiratorial mate. I simply couldn't remember the time scale and was hedging my bets. I'll happily concede less than two years and apply exactly the same expectation: show at least a modicum of improvement in our defending. That's all. I don't expect it to be world class; just better. I fully recognise that improvement is incremental and not linear. We're seeing nothing though.

 

However, even that isn't really my point. My point is that it's crazy for him to be kicking off on the fans for finding it frustrating. Let's be clear: no-one's getting booed; no-one being ignored for applause or a cheer when they do something good; what's happening is that absolutely basic defensive errors keep costing us points and fans are frustrated by that. Klopp's job is not to tell us to shut up. It's literally his job to sort out the problem at the heart of our frustration.