Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

SD. Let me know when you grasp the opportunity of being an admin assistant in Estonia on 1€ an hour.

Enjoy your beetroot.

I've studied and worked in Spain. It was a brilliant experience. I'd like everyone to have an opportunity like that available to them.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

I've studied and worked in Spain. It was a brilliant experience. I'd like everyone to have an opportunity like that available to them.

As well they would, on a student visa (for which the eligibility criteria ‘have proof that you’re on a recognised course’) which gives a 20 hour work permission eligibility with the student resident card. It’s not as easy as waltzing in and doing what you like, but it’s a couple of forms. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

If the employer had been obliged to pay all workers at the correct rate

Who decides that rate then? There are very easy work arounds. 

[cloggypop]

20 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I've studied and worked in Spain. It was a brilliant experience. I'd like everyone to have an opportunity like that available to them.

I've worked in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and Denmark. I would highly recommend the opportunity to do so. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

16 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Who decides that rate then? There are very easy work arounds. 

Agreement with unions, to set the rates and to stop the work arounds.

 

(That's the root of the problem here: UK trade union laws are among the most  - if not THE most - restrictive in the EU. )

[AngryOfTuebrook]

23 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

As well they would, on a student visa (for which the eligibility criteria ‘have proof that you’re on a recognised course’) which gives a 20 hour work permission eligibility with the student resident card. It’s not as easy as waltzing in and doing what you like, but it’s a couple of forms. 

Why not just waltz in and apply for any job you're qualified for? As long as you're not undercutting the local workforce, you're not having any detrimental effect on them; on the contrary, you are contributing to the local economy, while gaining some invaluable experience. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

Agreement with unions, to set the rates and to stop the work arounds.

 

(That's the root of the problem here: UK trade union laws are among the most  - if not THE most - restrictive in the EU. )

That just won’t work regarding others from outside the UK. You can’t set a rate across the board, for a start. Not unless you want to damage businesses and the economy. It’s a tricky problem and a lot less easy to control than your posts so far have suggested. Even then, even if that could work, there’s nothing stopping the jobs going to workers from outside the uk of bosses thing they can benefit in some other, less tangible way. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

That just won’t work regarding others from outside the UK. You can’t set a rate across the board, for a start. Not unless you want to damage businesses and the economy. It’s a tricky problem and a lot less easy to control than your posts so far have suggested. Even then, even if that could work, there’s nothing stopping the jobs going to workers from outside the uk of bosses thing they can benefit in some other, less tangible way. 

I'm not talking about setting a rate across the board. What you do is agree rates for jobs and include provisions in the agreement that those rates apply equally to any subcontractors doing the same work. (That would have prevented the "British jobs for British workers" row that blew up about 10 years ago. )

 

Nor am I pretending it's simple.  That's why I'm talking about empowering workers to have more of a say in resolving the specific issues affecting their own workplaces. That's got to be better than the blunt instrument of removing an important right - the right for workers to travel to find work - in the hope that that will somehow improve things for workers.

[Anny Road]

3 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

If the employer had been obliged to pay all workers at the correct rate, then he wouldn't be able to undercut that lad by bringing in an exploited, underpaid workforce. (The fact that employers are able to exploit workers this way is entirely the responsibility of successive UK governments: it's not an EU policy and leaving the EU just means that they will find other ways of exploiting us.)

 

Workers blaming each other is exactly what the employers and the ruling classes depend on.  I refuse to fall for it.

The employer did meet his legal obligations he paid minimum wage.

Previously to get the staff he required to work the shitty hours he needed he paid minimum wage plus a £30 shift allowance for nights. You do 2 night shifts a month. Extra £300 notes a month. Makes a difference.

Polish lads could not give a fuck about shit allowance.8 quid an hour nights is magic. 6 to a house all sharing rent and bills sending a grand a month home. Happy days.

Meanwhile our lot cannot pay the mortgage.

That is the fucking reality of it not some SD utopia were we can all have the freedom to be Greek olive farmers if we want.

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/28/no-deal-brexit-may-mean-cancelled-operations-and-staffing-shortages-nhs-scotland-wales

 

Let's hope people aren't in need of operations as we're leaving the EU. Or medicines. But at least some companies will reintroduce shift allowances...

[AngryOfTuebrook]

33 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

The employer did meet his legal obligations he paid minimum wage.

 

That's my point: UK law, not EU law, encourages employers to exploit workers.  Strong unions would have prevented that, but successive UK governments have hobbled the unions and (successfully, so it seems) divided workers against each other. 

 

Reducing workers' freedom is the opposite of what is needed.

[Anny Road]

9 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

That's my point: UK law, not EU law, encourages employers to exploit workers.  Strong unions would have prevented that, but successive UK governments have hobbled the unions and (successfully, so it seems) divided workers against each other. 

 

Reducing workers' freedom is the opposite of what is needed.

Super unicorns firing rainbows out of there arses would make us all happy too.

Unfortunately they do not exist. EU does.

 

Thats me done with this shit. Argue amongst yourselves or cry or whatever. I can’t be arsed anymore. 

You are right and 51% of the public are wrong.

[moof]

More like 25%, actually. But glad you can finally admit it

[AngryOfTuebrook]

40 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

Super unicorns firing rainbows out of there arses would make us all happy too.

Unfortunately they do not exist. EU does.

 

Thats me done with this shit. Argue amongst yourselves or cry or whatever. I can’t be arsed anymore. 

You are right and 51% of the public are wrong.

Fuck me. Is this what 39 years of British neoliberalism have done to you  - that you think the standards of workers' rights that other Western EU countries enjoy are a ridiculous fantasy?

 

If only you'd had a chance to work abroad, you might have a different view of what is possible. 

[Anny Road]

I dont want to work in fucking Estonia. I want to work here.

Fundamental workers rights have fuck all to do with the EU.

Protect workers and provide employment. It does not require me to tie in with Greece.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

14 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

 

Fundamental workers rights have fuck all to do with the EU.

Protect workers and provide employment. It does not require me to tie in with Greece.

Not true. The EU brought in a raft of workers' rights, which John Major opted out of and New Labour adopted and David Cameron tried to back out of. 

 

But the gist of that post is that you agree that the restrictions on UK workers' rights come from the UK Government, not the EU; in which case, what are the benefits for workers of leaving?

[Anny Road]

58 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Not true. The EU brought in a raft of workers' rights, which John Major opted out of and New Labour adopted and David Cameron tried to back out of. 

 

But the gist of that post is that you agree that the restrictions on UK workers' rights come from the UK Government, not the EU; in which case, what are the benefits for workers of leaving?

No mate I’d rather a UK Labour Government ensured workers rights, promoted employment and was not reliant on some unelected foreign assembly of people who have different objectives.

[Gnasher]

3 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

That's my point: UK law, not EU law, encourages employers to exploit workers.  Strong unions would have prevented that, but successive UK governments have hobbled the unions and (successfully, so it seems) divided workers against each other. 

 

Reducing workers' freedom is the opposite of what is needed.

You may find that workers rights in this country go far beyond the EU and most were won long before the EU existed. For example When did women in Ford South London win equal pay for women? Mid sixties? and not  an EU member in sight.

 

 Thanks for trying to blow EU smoke up our arse though.

 

Good little article..

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/enrico-tortolano/as-trade-unionist-this-is-why-britain-must-vote-to-leave

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Anny Road said:

No mate I’d rather a UK Labour Government ensured workers rights, promoted employment and was not reliant on some unelected foreign assembly of people who have different objectives.

Why not have workers' rights including the right to work anywhere in 28 countries?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

55 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You may find that workers rights in this country go far beyond the EU and most were won long before the EU existed. For example When did women in Ford South London win equal pay for women? Mid sixties? and not  an EU member in sight.

 

 Thanks for trying to blow EU smoke up our arse though.

 

Good little article..

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/enrico-tortolano/as-trade-unionist-this-is-why-britain-must-vote-to-leave

Point-missing level: Expert.

 

Nobody has ever pretended that the EU is the original source of what rights workers in the UK still have. If you pay attention, you'll see that we were talking about the fact that UK workers have fewer rights than most in the EU and that it's the UK Government  - not the EU or any immigrants - to blame for that.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

 

Good little article..

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/enrico-tortolano/as-trade-unionist-this-is-why-britain-must-vote-to-leave

I read that before the Referendum.  The difference between you and me is that I also read a lot of other stuff, from both sides of the debate, and then made my own mind up.

[aRdja]

Being an immigrant who’s currently working in the UK, I think it’s pretty mad for you guys to vote for giving up access for you and your kids to work in the EU. Unless you could somehow limit the movement of capital with it, the working people will be worse off. Profit-seeking companies rightly or wrongly are single-mindedly driven by the bottom-line. If it’s more expensive to produce or operate in the UK than elsewhere, then they will move and their jobs will folllow. However the British workers unfortunately wouldn’t be able to easily follow the jobs for obvious reasons.

[skend04]

8 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Being an immigrant who’s currently working in the UK, I think it’s pretty mad for you guys to vote for giving up access for you and your kids to work in the EU. Unless you could somehow limit the movement of capital with it, the working people will be worse off. Profit-seeking companies rightly or wrongly are single-mindedly driven by the bottom-line. If it’s more expensive to produce or operate in the UK than elsewhere, then they will move and their jobs will folllow. However the British workers unfortunately wouldn’t be able to easily follow the jobs for obvious reasons.

I bet you live in a house with 30 other blokes. That's why you're able to pay £11 for a breakfast whilst local lads have lost their shift allowances.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Being an immigrant who’s currently working in the UK, I think it’s pretty mad for you guys to vote for giving up access for you and your kids to work in the EU. Unless you could somehow limit the movement of capital with it, the working people will be worse off. Profit-seeking companies rightly or wrongly are single-mindedly driven by the bottom-line. If it’s more expensive to produce or operate in the UK than elsewhere, then they will move and their jobs will folllow. However the British workers unfortunately wouldn’t be able to easily follow the jobs for obvious reasons.

Trouble is, those profit-seeking companies need frictionless movement of stuff all along the supply chain and easy access to a European market of 350 million people.  The only thing that would attract them to invest in the UK is if we slash workers' rights and pay even further. 

 

Still, blue passports!

[aRdja]

14 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Trouble is, those profit-seeking companies need frictionless movement of stuff all along the supply chain and easy access to a European market of 350 million people.  The only thing that would attract them to invest in the UK is if we slash workers' rights and pay even further. 

 

Still, blue passports!

And/or become a tax haven