Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[bossy]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Well I've posted a link showing a major supermarket giving staff wage rises this very week in part because of Brexit. 

Aldi still refuses to recognise USDAW so it’s all depends on the German firms goodwill. It’s hardly the way to provide constructive, solid, long lasting working conditions and wages for all. I have mates who regard themselves as communists and have the same opinion as you. I know also, that they don’t believe the bollix from, in this case Aldi, but it suits them to use this argument for now. See also Spiked. 

[Gnasher]

3 hours ago, bossy said:

Aldi still refuses to recognise USDAW so it’s all depends on the German firms goodwill. It’s hardly the way to provide constructive, solid, long lasting working conditions and wages for all. I have mates who regard themselves as communists and have the same opinion as you. I know also, that they don’t believe the bollix from, in this case Aldi, but it suits them to use this argument for now. See also Spiked. 

I was talking more in general terms. A firm struggling for labour should ensure job security rises, otherwise they'd soon be looking for even more labour. Thatcher used mass unemployment to suppress wages and increase job insecurity, which is what happened. 

 

I'm certainly not suggesting this is some kind of boom time for British workers across the card but some in certain low paid professions such as agriculture/hospitality/construction have definitely benefited from our withdrawal. 

[Kepler-186]

 

[bossy]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

I was talking more in general terms. A firm struggling for labour should ensure job security rises, otherwise they'd soon be looking for even more labour. Thatcher used mass unemployment to suppress wages and increase job insecurity, which is what happened. 

 

I'm certainly not suggesting this is some kind of boom time for British workers across the card but some in certain low paid professions such as agriculture/hospitality/construction have definitely benefited from our withdrawal. 

Aldi has always been the best paying of the supermarkets anyway. There is no indication that Brexit has caused a seismic shift in the way British workers are treated. Business has not recalibrated due to Brexit, nor has the government. If people are paid more, business will expect more from them.  

[Gnasher]

6 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

A Brief Guided Tour of Reality

 

The UK left the EU at the end of January 2020.

Almost immediately, the pandemic knackered economies around the world.

Last year, as countries started to emerge from the pandemic, shortages of labour (exacerbated by Brexit) drove wages up in some sectors. That effect is ongoing, but undoubtedly temporary, because it's unsustainable.

 

The reality is in these people's wage packets 

 

Everything is temporary and unsustainable to a point, bankers bonuses? Did the rich turn their nose up at them? Anyway If/when rises come to an end the reason will probably be through poor economic governance not through the act of Brexit.  Anyway the length is not the whole issue, the worker/employer correlation change was desperately needed. Yours is a rather bizarre argument.

 

Quote

The only way to make a sustainable shift in pay & conditions is to effect a power shift from bosses to workers, by giving workers more rights.

More rights are obviously welcome but sky high unemployment has always been the main enemy of job security. We both live in areas blighted by mass unemployment. Thatcher used it in the 80s with an unemployment rate of 3mil plus. Employers knew they have a large pool of workers to call on and use it accordingly to slash pay and conditions.

Quote

The whole point of Brexit (according to the people who promoted it and who are now in charge) was to effect a power shift in the opposite direction, by giving workers fewer rights.

 

An awful lot of political commentators on both left and right predicted an upturn for the lowest 20% of workers in mainly manual lower paid occupations. Cummings being one of them. It really wasn't a suprise. 

[Gnasher]

43 minutes ago, bossy said:

Aldi has always been the best paying of the supermarkets anyway. There is no indication that Brexit has caused a seismic shift in the way British workers are treated. Business has not recalibrated due to Brexit, nor has the government. If people are paid more, business will expect more from them.  

I didn't know that about Aldi and I don't doubt it but the main issue was its another rise given to workers in part because of Brexit.

 

As for business expecting more work for more money they are no longer n a position to demand anything, unless they want to lose more staff.

[cloggypop]

9 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Might not be 'relevant' to you but here's yet another example, 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/25/aldi-gives-second-pay-rise-in-year-amid-high-demand-for-uk-workers

 

 

 

 

German

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

German

I know. 

[halewood pete]

[magicrat]

[bossy]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

I didn't know that about Aldi and I don't doubt it but the main issue was its another rise given to workers in part because of Brexit.

 

As for business expecting more work for more money they are no longer n a position to demand anything, unless they want to lose more staff.

Ok. I disagree. Brexit is the biggest fuck up ever unless we agree a way that people can move around without fucking interfering, suspicious politicians and bureaucrats, protection obsessed trades unions and the more general racist twats. Freedom, in other words. I was a musician and I played in Europe, it was as easy as playing anywhere in the UK. We can no longer easily work in other countries in Europe, live in other countries, study in other countries, whatever. There was a time the left was internationalist, now it appears it’s advocating the old ‘socialism in one country’, a thinly disguised appeal to nationalism. We expect that from the right. It’s not for me. 

[Gnasher]

35 minutes ago, bossy said:

Ok. I disagree. Brexit is the biggest fuck up ever unless we agree a way that people can move around without fucking interfering, suspicious politicians and bureaucrats, protection obsessed trades unions and the more general racist twats. Freedom, in other words. I was a musician and I played in Europe, it was as easy as playing anywhere in the UK. We can no longer easily work in other countries in Europe, live in other countries, study in other countries, whatever. There was a time the left was internationalist, now it appears it’s advocating the old ‘socialism in one country’, a thinly disguised appeal to nationalism. We expect that from the right. It’s not for me. 

OK fair enough, I can see it's a difficult situation for you. I thought I heard something about the music industry trying to work out some sort of exemption for musicians although I'm not sure if anything concrete materialised. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

The reality is in these people's wage packets 

 

Everything is temporary and unsustainable to a point, bankers bonuses? Did the rich turn their nose up at them? Anyway If/when rises come to an end the reason will probably be through poor economic governance not through the act of Brexit.  Anyway the length is not the whole issue, the worker/employer correlation change was desperately needed. Yours is a rather bizarre argument.

 

More rights are obviously welcome but sky high unemployment has always been the main enemy of job security. We both live in areas blighted by mass unemployment. Thatcher used it in the 80s with an unemployment rate of 3mil plus. Employers knew they have a large pool of workers to call on and use it accordingly to slash pay and conditions.

 

An awful lot of political commentators on both left and right predicted an upturn for the lowest 20% of workers in mainly manual lower paid occupations. Cummings being one of them. It really wasn't a suprise. 

You and I have fundamentally different ideas about how the economy works.

 

You put all your faith in market forces: in your arguments, the only driver of wages is the interplay of supply and demand of labour.

 

I think that's cobblers.

 

Everything I have ever seen points to the fact that the biggest driver of wages is the balance of power between bosses and employees. 43 years (and counting) of neoliberalism have shifted the balance massively in the bosses' favour; hence the skyrocketing of executive pay and the stagnation of wages. Brexit is designed to accelerate that transfer of power (and money) from us to them. That's the reality that you need to wake up to if you're going to contribute in any way to the rearguard action that workers and their unions are starting to fight.

[Pete]

My line manager (Lovely lady,  but voted for Brexit) has gone to Spain for  weeks.  Complaining this AM about an hours queue at customs,  stopped by security and detained for 45 minutes and then had a full baggage search done so she was in the airport in Spain longer than she was at the UK airport.   

I am trying very hard not to laugh at her plight.  

[redinblack]

9 hours ago, Gnasher said:

OK fair enough, I can see it's a difficult situation for you. I thought I heard something about the music industry trying to work out some sort of exemption for musicians although I'm not sure if anything concrete materialised. 

I believe the music industry did suggest an exemption but our fabulous government fucked it off. It was free movement therefore not allowed under their charter of idiocy.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The Brexit hostile environment, working as intended. 

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/26/as-a-romanian-airport-staff-tried-to-prevent-me-coming-home-to-the-uk-17038601/

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Yep the same France where the anti EU far left and far right political parties recently got record numbers of votes.

[Gnasher]

On 27/07/2022 at 10:27, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The Brexit hostile environment, working as intended. 

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/26/as-a-romanian-airport-staff-tried-to-prevent-me-coming-home-to-the-uk-17038601/

 

Government incompetence.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Just now, Gnasher said:

Government incompetence.

No it isn't. This is exactly what the Tories and their base intended.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Yep the same France where the anti EU far left and far right political parties recently got record numbers of votes.

Point?

[Gnasher]

 

 

Sorry Captain but Eddie deserves his place on this thread.

 

 

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Point?

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Ursula and the gang was it?

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No it isn't. This is exactly what the Tories and their base intended.

Well the Conservatives should be removed from office.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

 

 

Sorry Captain but Eddie deserves his place on this thread.

 

 

It's half an hour and I'm busy. Did he say anything beyond the six points highlighted in the RMT link I posted?