Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Gnasher]

29 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Thanks for giving an apposite example of what I was talking about. 

No probs. Hows Joe Swinson or whatever her name was.?  

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

No probs. Hows Joe Swinson or whatever her name was.?  

Playing duck hunt but in real life. With squirrels. 

[Rico1304]

I need to up my game here, Gnasher seems to be more objectionable than me. 

[mattyq]

4 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

What is your solution?

 

Mine is to improve the rights of workers, whether they're from Suceava or Southport.  As a Brexit supporter, yours would be to remove the rights of migrant workers, making them more vulnerable to exploitation. 

I don't think we should improve the rights of people from Wigan, Sunderland or Lincolnshire. Everybody else is fine

[sir roger]

2 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

I need to up my game here, Gnasher seems to be more objectionable than me. 

To quote St Raheem , ' Steady '

[sir roger]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/how-covid-19-poured-cold-water-on-netherlands-eu-romance

 

Seems like the Dutch are getting more euro-sceptic.

Interesting to get Cloggy & any other Netherlanders on here's views on this.

[Gnasher]

14 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Tell me, what was Nye Bevan's view on the Maastricht Treaty?

Sorry angry I missed this. I posted an article above which outlines Bevans views on the eu. It's an excellent article, it doesn't tub thump for one side or the other its imo one of the best I've read about our relationship with the eu.

 

 

https://nyebevannews.co.uk/the-conception-of-the-common-market-is-the-result-of-a-political-malaise-nye-bevan-on-the-common-market-now-the-eu/

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Sorry angry I missed this. I posted an article above which outlines Bevans views on the eu. It's an excellent article, it doesn't tub thump for one side or the other its imo one of the best I've read about our relationship with the eu.

 

 

https://nyebevannews.co.uk/the-conception-of-the-common-market-is-the-result-of-a-political-malaise-nye-bevan-on-the-common-market-now-the-eu/

This sentence is about as thumpy as tub-thumping can get.

The best prospect the Left has of preventing the Right ‘locking in’ a neo-liberal economy for years to come is actually the hardest Brexit that can be contrived.

 

It's also very, very wrong, for reasons I (and others) have go over loads of times in this thread.

 

[Edit]

Notwithstanding it's obvious bias, it's one of the most intelligent arguments for "Lexit" that I've read.  I still disagree, mind, but it's worth reading - especially by Remainers like me.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Apparently, Richard Tuck (shocking name!) wrote that two years ago.  I wonder if he would still be as glib about the current political "turmoil" now that it seems we're locked into 5 years of murderous hardline neoliberalism.

 

https://briefingsforbritain.co.uk/the-current-shambles/

 

I'm intrigued by Bevan's comment at the start of that quote.

"in the absence of a wider sovereignty, all the conception of a common market does is to elevate the market place to the status now enjoyed by the various European parliaments."

That seems to suggest that the problem isn't with the EEC/EU, per se, but with the proposals at the time; it could be an argument for going all in or not at all.  Obviously, I've no idea whether that's what Bevan intended - unfortunately, I can't find a link back to the original speech, so I can't see it in context - but it's an interesting thought in its own right.

 

 

[Bjornebye]

15 hours ago, sir roger said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/how-covid-19-poured-cold-water-on-netherlands-eu-romance

 

Seems like the Dutch are getting more euro-sceptic.

Interesting to get Cloggy & any other Netherlanders on here's views on this.

 

 

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Of tens of thousands of UK applicants for harvesting jobs, just over 100 turned up.

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/just-112-out-of-50-000-applicants-turn-up-to-replace-eastern-europeans-fruit-picking-1-6627844?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

[Pureblood]

@Gnasher this simply isn't good enough!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

54 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Of tens of thousands of UK applicants for harvesting jobs, just over 100 turned up.

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/just-112-out-of-50-000-applicants-turn-up-to-replace-eastern-europeans-fruit-picking-1-6627844?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

The article is actually worth reading (despite the political/economic leanings of the people behind that paper). It basically just adds another layer to the fact that the whole situation is shit and, ultimately, very sad.

[Gnasher]

6 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The article is actually worth reading (despite the political/economic leanings of the people behind that paper). It basically just adds another layer to the fact that the whole situation is shit and, ultimately, very sad.

Why is the article worth reading?  It's from the telegraph and it could have been written in crayon.

 

It's got a couple of quotes from a landowner called Greville, who' says nothing enlightening whatsoever. Hes in his 40s and his  company had assets last year of 5 million pound, my heart bleeds. 

 

I think I'll stick to the thoughts of Nye Bevan if it's ok with you Angry, ar least his comments are thought provoking and insightful even if they were said a long time ago.

[skend04]

42 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Why is the article worth reading?  It's from the telegraph and it could have been written in crayon.

 

It's got a couple of quotes from a landowner called Greville, who' says nothing enlightening whatsoever. Hes in his 40s and his  company had assets last year of 5 million pound, my heart bleeds. 

 

I think I'll stick to the thoughts of Nye Bevan if it's ok with you Angry, ar least his comments are thought provoking and insightful even if they were said a long time ago.

The Telegraph were fully on board the Brexit bus. Heck they even went and voted for it at the ballot box. And now you're saying that the paper who trumpeted the benefits of Brexit are talking rubbish about the reasons why Brits aren't taking up the jobs that the foreigners stole? This probably only computes in Gnasher's world.

[Moo]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Why is the article worth reading?  It's from the telegraph and it could have been written in crayon.

 

It's got a couple of quotes from a landowner called Greville, who' says nothing enlightening whatsoever. Hes in his 40s and his  company had assets last year of 5 million pound, my heart bleeds. 

 

I think I'll stick to the thoughts of Nye Bevan if it's ok with you Angry, ar least his comments are thought provoking and insightful even if they were said a long time ago.

I must have read a different article.  The one I read demonstrates why this type of work is wholly unsuitable for fitting in with the lifestyles of most people in this country.  A lifestyle that has been encouraged by our centre and right wing governments of the last number of decades, such governments appearing impossible to shift because for some reason we choose to give them more and more power culminating in the Brexit vote and the GE in December. 

That's what Brexit means, and that's what it has always meant.  Get used to it, your Lexit dream is not happening, never was. 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Why is the article worth reading?  It's from the telegraph and it could have been written in crayon.

 

It's got a couple of quotes from a landowner called Greville, who' says nothing enlightening whatsoever. Hes in his 40s and his  company had assets last year of 5 million pound, my heart bleeds. 

 

I think I'll stick to the thoughts of Nye Bevan if it's ok with you Angry, ar least his comments are thought provoking and insightful even if they were said a long time ago.

Why not, y'know, read the facts (instead of just opinions) and then make your own mind up?  What you'll find is that facts don't fit the inadequate black & white narratives you always try to bend them into.

[Gnasher]

14 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Why not, y'know, read the facts (instead of just opinions) and then make your own mind up?  What you'll find is that facts don't fit the inadequate black & white narratives you always try to bend them into.

It's not facts the article is the opinion of a landowner tarquin, gideon, Greville or whatever his name is. It's imo a poor article which says little, however it's good people are talking about it. Articles flagging up the plight of Europes poor are generally ignored.

 

The reason Europe has a large swathe of cheap and desperate labour is because for a decade it was eu policy, its what austerity brings. Thatcher did the same, create mass unemployment to create a large workforce to drive down wages and increase profits. Her policies were not a secret and nor were the European unions, both have proved disastrous, especially for the young.

 

I've linked it before but I'd rather take the word of these ypung europeans than some minted landowners on southern England.

 

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/economy/europe-youth-unemployment-france/index.html

 

[Gnasher]

Angry I was watching the 70s hit movie Grease on tv the other day and it occurred to me your relationship with the eu is exactly like that of the two main characters Oliver newton John and John Travolta. You being Sandy and the eu being Travolta., all slick hair and cheesy smiles.

 

You meen well and your love is pure and unconditional but unfortunately for you its ends in crushing disappointment and floods of tears whilst you clutch a teddy bear and gaze to the stars when it dawns on you that your dream will never be fulfilled as Travolta like the eu turns out to be as bent as a two bob note 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Like I say... when facts don't fit your black & white narrative, then you dispense with the facts altogether.

 

Ah, well.

[Gnasher]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

Like I say... when facts don't fit your black & white narrative, then you dispense with the facts altogether.

 

Ah, well.

Angry, the facts are here. Do you want me to speak more slowly or shout a bit louder? 

 

Youth Unemployment across europe, as the gamblers say " read em and weep"

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/economy/europe-youth-unemployment-france/index.html

 

They are the facts. Young people without jobs because of a European wide political ideology You're welcome to comment.

[JohnnyH]

30 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Angry I was watching the 70s hit movie Grease on tv the other day and it occurred to me your relationship with the eu is exactly like that of the two main characters Oliver newton John and John Travolta. You being Sandy and the eu being Travolta., all slick hair and cheesy smiles.

 

You meen well and your love is pure and unconditional but unfortunately for you its ends in crushing disappointment and floods of tears whilst you clutch a teddy bear and gaze to the stars when it dawns on you that your dream will never be fulfilled as Travolta like the eu turns out to be as bent as a two bob note 

Oh my God, you're Toby Young.

[Captain Turdseye]

11 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Angry, the facts are here. Do you want me to speak more slowly or shout a bit louder? 

 

Youth Unemployment across europe, as the gamblers say " read em and weep"

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/economy/europe-youth-unemployment-france/index.html

 

They are the facts. Young people without jobs because of a European wide political ideology You're welcome to comment.

There are jobs here picking fruit that none of us want to do. If you care so much about the young people of Europe, why are you so keen to deny unskilled willing workers that opportunity?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

22 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Angry, the facts are here. Do you want me to speak more slowly or shout a bit louder? 

 

Youth Unemployment across europe, as the gamblers say " read em and weep"

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/economy/europe-youth-unemployment-france/index.html

 

They are the facts. Young people without jobs because of a European wide political ideology You're welcome to comment.

Read it again.

 

The only fact in that link are that lots of young people in the Eurozone are unemployed.

 

There are a few questions arising from that:

1.  Why are they unemployed?

     I think it's because of the widespread implementation of neoliberal policies.  (I think on that point, at least, we can agree.)

 

2.  Who is implementing these neoliberal policies?

     You blame the EU and the EU alone.  The facts suggest otherwise: although the EU supports neoliberal policies, it is entirely at the discretion of the Member States how deep and hard they cut.  (Obviously, Greece is a shameful exception to this, where the EU put undue pressure on the national government to implement ruinous policies.)  While some Member States - led by the UK - have gone balls deep on austerity and neoliberalism, others (notably the Scandinavian countries and Portugal) have implemented a more "Democratic Socialist" economy, with the support of the EU.

 

It's probably true (I'm not expert enough in economics to say whether it's definitively true) that the decision to enter into the Euro has aggravated the impacts of the Recession, it doesn't follow that this is all the EU's fault; even a Eurosceptic, non-Euro country like the UK chose deep and brutal austerity.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Angry I was watching the 70s hit movie Grease on tv the other day

I hope you're not going to bring any of that to the Fucking Ace Tunes thread.